Author Topic: How do I make dough this elastic?  (Read 6122 times)

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Offline mililani

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How do I make dough this elastic?
« on: May 14, 2013, 09:22:56 PM »
Hello folks,

I've been making pizza dough for quite some time in a food processor.  I currently use bread flour and shoot for 65% hydration using the Lehmann's pizza calculator.  I've tried a lot of different methods that I've found over the years on this site, and I can never get pizza dough that is this elastic:

http://youtu.be/SjYqw1CLZsA?t=1m17

Skip to 1:16.  Look at the way he pushes out the dough without it tearing.  When he tosses, the pizza dough looks like skin.  I've only seen dough come out like this with a stand mixer.  My mother in law does a lot of baking, and she uses a KitchenAid mixer to produce dough that can really be stretched paper thin without ever tearing.

My question to everyone, is this normal for well kneaded pizza dough?  I have also tried hand kneading, which I'm still working on, and I still have a hard time coming out with nice, elastic dough.  Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 03:16:57 AM by mililani »


Offline SolidSurfer

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 11:08:40 PM »
Yeah, I can't make dough like that.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 11:13:41 PM »
Hello folks....

My question to everyone, is this normal for well kneaded pizza dough? 

Post your recipe and workflow, if your serious.
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Online mkevenson

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 12:47:02 AM »
After over 15 months and at least one pie a week, and a visit to Vegas, and a class at Tony's, and many hours here, I am approaching that kind of dough. How did I do it? MAGIC :-D


mark
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 07:52:33 AM »
M;
Without seeing your dough formula/recipe and dough management procedure I cannot say for sure what the problem might be, but fermentation is a big key to it. Once you have your dough developed just until it has a smooth skin on it, form it into a ball and wipe it with oil then place it into a plastic bag (not a Zip-Lok bag). A bread bag works great. Twist the open end of the bag to form a pony tail, then tuck the pony tail under the bag as you place it into the fridge. This allows for some expansion without tearing the bag. After 24 to 48-hours in the fridge remove the dough ball and allow it to temper AT room temperature for about 2-hours, then turn the dough ball out of the bag and with MINIMAL handling, drop the dough ball into mixture of flour and cornmeal (I like to use a 50/50 blend) now you are ready to begin opening the dough as shown in the video. You might need to make some adjustments to the refrigerated fermentation time and the tempering time depending upon your specific dough formulation, but this should get you started.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 02:52:12 PM »
Hi Tom,

Much thanks for the response!  My formula/recipe is pretty standard: I use about 180 grams of bread flour, enough water and oil to get up to 65% hydration, and some salt and sugar and ADY.  I proof the yeast in some warm water, but I save the bulk of the water as cold sugar water.  I then add it to my food processor and incorporate for 30 seconds, along with the yeast mixture.  I let the dough rest for several minutes.  Start kneading in FP for another 30-45 seconds.  Let it rest for 20 minutes.  Then one final knead for 30-45 seconds.  I also ferment the dough balls.  I do at least a 24 hr cold rise, and I often stagger 3 dough balls to get pizza 3 nights a week at different fermentation levels: 24, 48, 72 hrs.  I think my problem has to do with kneading.  Although, I'm not sure.  I will need to try a KitchenAid stand mixer and compare a 15 minute slow knead with my food processor methods.  I've tried hand kneading, but I'm not skillful enough with that.  I was just wondering if anyone has been on a similar path before and have figured out why their dough balls were tearing with hand stretching. 

I forgot to add that I can get a window pane on the dough I make, but it will tear easily as I try to stretch out the entire dough.  I often resort to what I call the cheater method: rolling pin. 


Offline apizza

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 04:50:02 PM »

miliani,
Since I sometimes use a food processor I'd like to ask what blade you are using? Also how warm is the dough when you finish the final run ? When I use the processor I use the metal blade and do a total of about 1 minute.  One rest after it comes together. Not being an expert I wonder if your total processing time is too long.
Marty

Offline JD

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 05:47:14 PM »
Flour makes a big difference too. I used the same recipe for GMBFB flour, and All trumps. The all trumps absorbed a lot more water than the GMBFB, so my 59% all trumps dough was very dry, and the GMBFB was just as I like it.

I'd suggest bringing your hydration down to 58-60% if you really want to work the dough, but remember you won't get the same results with a lower hydration dough.
Josh

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 08:57:20 PM »
miliani,
Since I sometimes use a food processor I'd like to ask what blade you are using? Also how warm is the dough when you finish the final run ? When I use the processor I use the metal blade and do a total of about 1 minute.  One rest after it comes together. Not being an expert I wonder if your total processing time is too long.
Marty

Hi Marty,

I've tried several methods with the FP, and I have tried both the dough blade and metal blade.  The method I used to use was to incorporate only warm water with ADY and everything else into the dough with a metal blade.  I would let it run for about a minute.  The dough would come out quite warm.  I thought the warmth was partly the cause of my under-kneaded dough.  So, I found another method on pizza making forum that utilizes cold water and multiple kneads stretched over a 30-45 minute time period.  That seemed to create better kneaded dough balls.  But, still, I get problems with tearing as I stretch out cold fermented dough balls.

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 09:08:04 PM »
Flour makes a big difference too. I used the same recipe for GMBFB flour, and All trumps. The all trumps absorbed a lot more water than the GMBFB, so my 59% all trumps dough was very dry, and the GMBFB was just as I like it.

I'd suggest bringing your hydration down to 58-60% if you really want to work the dough, but remember you won't get the same results with a lower hydration dough.

Hmmm, interesting.  I wonder about the flour too.  Tony says he's using a high protein/high gluten flour.   However, in another video, he works with Caputo flour, or tipo 00, for a Neopolitan style pizza.  The dough balls came out extremely elastic as well from the industrial stand mixer.   I think that my bread flour has higher protein content than the 00 flour.  I will definitely try a lower hydration dough.  I have a feeling that may be part of the problem.  What do you guys typically use for hydration levels?  I like higher hydration, because it gives me big bubbles in my pizza.

By the way, can anyone tell me what high gluten flour means??  I always thought gluten was formed in the process of kneading. 


Offline henkverhaar

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 02:33:36 AM »
By the way, can anyone tell me what high gluten flour means??  I always thought gluten was formed in the process of kneading.

Depends on what you mean exactly when you refer to 'gluten'. Basically, gluten is a network of two proteins found in wheat; the two proteins, gliadin and glutenin, are together also identified as 'gluten'. So if you're speaking of the gluten content of flour, you are referring to the amount (concentration) of the gliadins and glutenins (and their ratio), whereas if you're speaking of 'gluten development' during kneading and fermentation, you are referring to the network of proteins that is formed (and eventually destroyed) when the gliadins and glutenins 'react' during the bread making process.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 09:17:26 AM »
M;
With reference to gluten development at the time of mixing, in our annual pizza course we use a planetary type of mixer to develop the dough just to the point of having a smooth skin. At this point in of development it is impossible to stretch the dough to form much of a gluten film (window pane), however, by the next morning I have a group of 4 or 5 students gather around in a circle and we stretch the dough using the backs of our hands to form a dough skin that any strudel maker would be proud of. The resulting gluten film is thin enough to clearly see skin details of your hands through it. This is the result of what is called biochemical gluten development. This is also the way dough was made prior to Mr. Hobart's creative invention. Back in the early 80's I visited a bakery in Romania that had a total of 60 dough mixing stations, each mixing station was a large bowl into which flour, water, yeast, salt, a little sugar and some oil were added. The dough was then manually stirred by two men with slightly flattened mixing sticks (think baseball bat with a flattened end something like an oar.) The dough was mixed until it looked like wet oatmeal, and then covered and allowed to ferment for several hours, it was then transferred to a work table where it was given a couple folds, cut into pieces (never mind scaling), placed into beehive baskets, proofed, turned out of the baskets onto sheet pans and transferred to the oven for baking.
As for high gluten flour, technically it doesn't exist as was correctly indicated. Flour contains seven different proteins including glutenin, and gliadin which, when agitated in the presence of water combine together to make the adhesive mass that we call "gluten". As a general rule, the higher the protein content of a flour, the more gluten can be formed from it, but this isn't always the case, and to add confusion to this we then encounter differences in gluten properties which basically put, means that some gluten is strong, and some is weak, some is tight, some is more elastic, and this has been the subject of VERY EXTENSIVE research world wide for over 35-years now, and we still don't know why these differences exist or how to test for them aside from an actual mixing or bake test. Flour is not so easy to fully understand, it is a very complex ingredient.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 09:37:37 AM »
milliani,

Some of the members, but most notably Norma, who has access to different flours at the professional level, conducted simple gluten mass tests in a non-scientific setting (like in a home and without instrumentation) in which the gluten in a fixed weight of dough was extracted from the dough, for several different flours. You can see the gluten mass weights in relation to protein content for several different flours in the master list at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661. As Tom notes, there is a lot of mystery that surrounds gluten.

Peter

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 10:13:35 PM »
Ohhh, wow, much thanks for all of the info, gentlemen.  I think I will start experimenting with different flours, then. 

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 12:52:58 AM »
Ok, guys, I think I've finally found my problem.  I decided to make the next batch of dough with lower hydration: 60%.  I also cold fermented for 3 days.  I don't know exactly what fixed my elasticity problem, but I did check the dough on day 1 and 2, and they were still tearing a bit when I checked for window pane.  Today, I looked at my dough balls after I reshaped them yesterday, and they looked like the dough balls in Tony's videos: smooth elastic skin, easy to punch down and bead the crust, and very easy to stretch and toss.  It was glorious.  I made 2 x 14" pizzas today on my steel plate, and so far, the best NY style pizzas I've ever made.  I think the hydration may have also played a part, since the dough was easy to handle without feeling like jello.  Although, today, I'm going to make another batch of balls, and I'm going to up the hydration to 70%.


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 08:47:45 AM »
M;
Did I read that you "reshape" your dough balls during the refrigerated storage period? If you subject the dough balls to let's say 24-hours cold fermentation, and then reshape it you just tighten the dough back up again, so it will need even more fermentation time to become soft and elastic. This is what we refer to as a "bucky" dough condition. In your experiments, you might want to look at corralling your dough balls in individual plastic bread bags. Oil each dough ball and place into individual bread bags, twist the open end to close, forming a pony tail. Tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it in the fridge. To use the dough, remove from fridge and allow to temper at room temperature for about 1.5 to 2-hours, then turn the dough ball out of the bag into a bowl of dusting flour and immediately begin opening the dough into a pizza skin. Just a thought.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 09:43:05 AM »
Tom,

We have several members who reshape dough during cold fermentation. Some cold ferment the dough in bulk and then do the division and scaling, and some do the division and scaling up front and reshape or otherwise rework the dough balls during cold fermentation. Usually the dough balls have to have a high enough hydration to permit this and usually the time between reworking and using has to be long enough to allow the dough balls to recover from the reworking. All of this is in the context of a home setting. Some of our professional members have talked about using similar measures in a professional setting but there has been little feedback to tell us whether these measures work in a professional setting where hundreds of dough balls can be made. The nonprofessional members who use these methods say that they get better oven spring and better crust and crumb texture.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 02:00:58 PM »
Peter;
You are absolutely correct in everything you state, however, without knowing how long the dough was allowed to further ferment after the re-balling took place, there is always a possibility that the dough might not be allowed to rest for a sufficient time for the dough to relax after the re-balling process, hence my questioning. It is also good to note that a dough that has been over fermented, often times can be brought back to an acceptable level of performance by re-balling it and allowing it to rest until it can be easily opened. This is also an old trick for working with frozen dough that even in its prime is not the best dough, and in a heart beat can go beyond its optimum shelf life/performance, and reworking it saves the day.
As for using a re-balling procedure in a commercial pizzeria setting, I think it would be extremely difficult to keep track of the time the dough was re-balled and kept separated from dough that is ready to use. Add to this the scarcity of refrigerated storage space, and you can see the dilemma that re-balling the dough presents. Aside from this, most pizzerias are in something of a struggle just to have enough dough ready to use throughout the course of the day, and in many cases, the store owner is also chief cook and bottle washer too (help in a pizzeria is hard to find), so in many shops they are short handed to say the least and they are always looking for labor saving steps that can be implemented in their store operation. It's a whole different dimension to pizza making when we are making a minimum of 150 pizzas (minimum) a day, plus doing all of the other things demanded in the shop. Been there, done that, just like Big Dave (Ostrander) that's why we're consultants today and have little if any desire to get back into owning our own shop again, but find great rewards in helping others fulfill their goals and dreams.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2013, 09:48:22 PM »
M;
Did I read that you "reshape" your dough balls during the refrigerated storage period? If you subject the dough balls to let's say 24-hours cold fermentation, and then reshape it you just tighten the dough back up again, so it will need even more fermentation time to become soft and elastic. This is what we refer to as a "bucky" dough condition. In your experiments, you might want to look at corralling your dough balls in individual plastic bread bags. Oil each dough ball and place into individual bread bags, twist the open end to close, forming a pony tail. Tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it in the fridge. To use the dough, remove from fridge and allow to temper at room temperature for about 1.5 to 2-hours, then turn the dough ball out of the bag into a bowl of dusting flour and immediately begin opening the dough into a pizza skin. Just a thought.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom,

Yeah, I had to reball the dough.  They rose much faster than anticipated and eventually started flattening out.  So, I reshaped and tightened up the outer skin by tucking the outer skin under the dough ball.  I also use lightly oiled bread bags as well to store dough in the fridge.

Also, I found that it's easier for me to begin work with dough when it's cold.  So, I start stretching and tossing after 30 minutes out of the fridge. 

Offline mililani

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Re: How do I make dough this elastic?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2013, 07:25:32 PM »
Alright, I FINALLLLLLLY figured out what has been wrong with my dough all these years!  TOO MUCH HYDRATION!  So, I've been experimenting this past week now that I have access to a Kitchen Aid stand mixer.  I thought maybe it was the food processor, but I did make a really nice, elastic dough, sort of close to the video with Tony, with it.  So, I figured maybe it wasn't that.  Anyways, I made a 65% hydration dough ball with the FP.  I also used oil, which I hear impedes gluten formation.  So, this isn't an apples to apples comparison to my previous dough balls.  Anyways, I then made a 65% hydration dough with the stand mixer, AND, I also made a 60% hydration dough as well--both with oil.  I'm using same old bread flour (unbleached, unbromated, enriched).  I have been eating pizzas all week, but whatever, I've finally found my answer.

So, the 65% hydration doughs would tear often when stretching out.  The also had a more gooey feel to them.  It was tough trying to stretch out the ends.  The 60% hydration doughs were very easy to stretch out.  Easy to toss as well.  The dough felt smooth and elastic.

So, there you go.  All this time, I've been making way too hydrated pizza dough balls (65-70%) and that has been all of my problems.  Not the oil, not the kneading method, not the flour.  However, I did notice a different texture to the crust in higher hydration doughs.  They were a bit more airy and had larger hole structures.  That's to be expected, I suppose. 

Hope this helps someone else out in the future.


 

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