Author Topic: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works  (Read 903 times)

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Offline mohalfares

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Hi,

Yesterday I've tried to make Neapolitan pizza for the 20+ times, every time I get the same result, even though I follow different techniques, proportions and fermenting time

Yesterday was my last attempt which I though it would be the best because it's the first time I use Caputo flour

100% Caputo (blue bag)
1.5% IDY (saf instant) http://www.wildyeastblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/saf-instant.jpg?6aa6ff
2% Salt
Water 65%

No kneading. Just mixed them together and left it on the counter for 18 hours, then moved it to the fridge for 48 hours. Took it out and let it cool and rise for 2 hours. The dough became very soft, just a little bit sticky, easy to handle, I loved it.

Put it on my 570f pizza stone preheated on my 550f normal electric oven, and the result just like always: won't cook in less than 6 min, and it become tough just like any regular pizza dough. It's good, but not a Neapolitan pizza at all, it's not tender, not fragrant, and no chars at all

I started to believe that the main missing factor here is Heat. Does the pizza stone ever works with Neapolitan Pizza?


Offline jsaras

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 09:20:21 AM »
Caputo is meant to be used in high heat and short bake times;  900 degrees and bake time of less than 2 minutes.

This misconception comes up often enough that I think it deserves its own "sticky" on the Neapolitan forum.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 09:26:19 AM »
Lack of heat is your problem regardless of flour type. Unless your oven has an extremely powerful broiler (and most ovens don't), without significant modifications, a home oven simply can't get hot enough to bake a Neapolitan pizza. Neapolitan hallmarks such as char and tenderness are a direct result of intense heat. 

If you are fortunate enough have a sufficiently powerful broiler, you can try this method:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0
Pizza is not bread.

Offline mkevenson

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 11:56:53 AM »
Sorry to read about your poor results. Excellent comments above. I doubt your pizza stone has anything to do with you being unhappy with the pies.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline theppgcowboy

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 12:08:16 PM »
Do what you are doing but use High Gluten flour add about 1% olive oil to the dough and work towards a NY style pie, you will be much happier until you get a wood fired oven. Point being, you cannot do a Neapolitan Pizza under your current set up.
Just curious, how warm is your refrigerator that when you take it out, you have to let it cool for 2 hours?  ;D  I know what you meant.

Offline JD

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 12:15:46 PM »
Your major problems have already been issued above, but I'd like to also mention that 1.5% bakers yeast and an 18hr room ferment plus an additional 48hr fridge ferment should create a completely over-fermented dough. If you're doing a true room temperature ferment with bakers yeast, your % would have to be less than 0.1%

Josh

JD's NY Style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.0
JD's Neapolitan using Pizza Party WFO: (Coming soon!)
http://www.wood-fired-pizza-oven.us/

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2014, 05:18:50 PM »
Keep in mind that Mohal is using SAY (instant dry yeast) which is concentrated about 3-times over that of compressed yeast, so on a compressed yeast level he is at about 4.5 to 5% compressed yeast, much too high for the type of fermentation he is giving the dough. There is a possibility that the dough is so over fermented that it is becoming slightly acid which inhibits crust color formation (just like it does in sourdough crust production) making it even more important to have the high temperature. With a lower yeast level (about 0.25% IDY) he may find that he can develop at least some crust color and an overall better bake.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2014, 07:24:26 PM »
Thank you so much for all your comments

First of all, sorry, it was a type mistake: 18 hours = 8 hours. I let it 8 hours on the counter before I move it to the fridge for 48 hours

Caputo is meant to be used in high heat and short bake times;  900 degrees and bake time of less than 2 minutes.

This misconception comes up often enough that I think it deserves its own "sticky" on the Neapolitan forum.

I read that and I think it's true.

Jeff Varasano has an opinion that it's even the worse flour to use if your oven is less 800f



Lack of heat is your problem regardless of flour type. Unless your oven has an extremely powerful broiler (and most ovens don't), without significant modifications, a home oven simply can't get hot enough to bake a Neapolitan pizza. Neapolitan hallmarks such as char and tenderness are a direct result of intense heat. 

If you are fortunate enough have a sufficiently powerful broiler, you can try this method:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0

Great info in that topic. I've tried once to put the stone on the top shelf, preheat it for 1 hour, it reached 590f, put the pizza on it, and I got some chars in 2-3 min (not leopard chars though), but the problem was the bottom, it wasn't cooked enough

I think I should give it another try, following Infoodel method

Sorry to read about your poor results. Excellent comments above. I doubt your pizza stone has anything to do with you being unhappy with the pies.

Mark

So what could it be?

Do what you are doing but use High Gluten flour add about 1% olive oil to the dough and work towards a NY style pie, you will be much happier until you get a wood fired oven. Point being, you cannot do a Neapolitan Pizza under your current set up.
Just curious, how warm is your refrigerator that when you take it out, you have to let it cool for 2 hours?  ;D  I know what you meant.

I've tried NY style pie and it was good and easy

My refrigerator is so hot :D

Your major problems have already been issued above, but I'd like to also mention that 1.5% bakers yeast and an 18hr room ferment plus an additional 48hr fridge ferment should create a completely over-fermented dough. If you're doing a true room temperature ferment with bakers yeast, your % would have to be less than 0.1%

18h was a type error, it's 8h, do you think it's still over fermented? given the room temp is 75f to 80f

Keep in mind that Mohal is using SAY (instant dry yeast) which is concentrated about 3-times over that of compressed yeast, so on a compressed yeast level he is at about 4.5 to 5% compressed yeast, much too high for the type of fermentation he is giving the dough. There is a possibility that the dough is so over fermented that it is becoming slightly acid which inhibits crust color formation (just like it does in sourdough crust production) making it even more important to have the high temperature. With a lower yeast level (about 0.25% IDY) he may find that he can develop at least some crust color and an overall better bake.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

As I said earlier, 18hours is a type error, it's 8 hours, do you think I still have to use 0.25 IDY?




Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2014, 07:34:08 PM »
There is one more thing

@The Dough Doctor & JD replies got my attention

Given that my room temp is between 75f to 80f, what is the proportions I should use, and the least fermenting time I should follow, to make quick tests

Because what's really hard here is waiting for days, to get 1 result  ???

This is why I'm looking for the quickest proportions/fermenting time to test with

Offline mkevenson

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2014, 08:13:36 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26831.0;attach=141173;image



Try using this


You can also do a search for EMERGENCY DOUGH


Realizing that very short ferment times may affect the taste of the dough/crust
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 08:17:05 PM by mkevenson »
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles


Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2014, 09:52:34 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26831.0;attach=141173;image



Try using this


You can also do a search for EMERGENCY DOUGH


Realizing that very short ferment times may affect the taste of the dough/crust

Thank you, the table is great, I'll give it a try, and I'll try using cast iron skillet next time

Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 12:17:15 PM »
Just to make sure I'm reading this table:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=26831.0;attach=141173;image

correct:

0.010% is 1%, 0.320% is 32% & 1.000% is 100%, right?

Offline dsissitka

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 12:38:01 PM »
0.010% is 1%, 0.320% is 32% & 1.000% is 100%, right?

No, it really does mean 0.01%, 0.32%, and 1%. :)

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 12:44:58 PM »

No, it really does mean 0.01%, 0.32%, and 1%. :)

So a recipe using 315 g flour and calling for 0.32% IDY, means about 1 gram IDY. 

Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 01:25:39 PM »
No, it really does mean 0.01%, 0.32%, and 1%. :)

I thought this is too little

So, if I want 4 hours ferment with CY in 75F (0.500%):

200g Flour
1g only CY (Ischia)

Is that right?

Craig asks for 1.3% CY
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

While the maximum in the table for CY is 1% only !

Plus, 1% in the table has fermenting time between 2 to 5 hours only, on 65F to 78F, the temperate range Craig used. But Craig ferreted the dough for couples of days. This is what's confusing me  ???

Offline JD

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 01:47:36 PM »
Craig uses Sourdough Starter, not CY.  Completely different animal:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg229864.html#msg229864

Josh

JD's NY Style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.0
JD's Neapolitan using Pizza Party WFO: (Coming soon!)
http://www.wood-fired-pizza-oven.us/

Offline JD

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 01:54:55 PM »
In case it's not clear, CY = Compressed Yeast which is considered a bakers yeast. Ischia is a sourdough starter.
Josh

JD's NY Style: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.0
JD's Neapolitan using Pizza Party WFO: (Coming soon!)
http://www.wood-fired-pizza-oven.us/

Offline mohalfares

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Re: The crust is always tough, no chars - I think pizza stone never works
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 02:14:52 PM »
I thought CY = Culture Yeast  :-X

Sorry, everything looks clear now. Thanks a lot


 

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