Author Topic: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias  (Read 12540 times)

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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2013, 10:59:32 AM »
Norma,

I feel like I have already been to Trenton! Much more in-depth than what I learned watching "Pizza Cuz", but I would not have expected anything diferent from you!

Thanks again for the great write-ups!

John K
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2013, 11:32:23 AM »
Norma,

Do you know the size of the pizza you had at Rinaldi's and were you able to learn what size dough ball was used to make that pizza? And was any sugar used in the dough? And do you know the type of yeast used?

Peter
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:09:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline petef

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2013, 05:16:02 PM »
As not to hi-jack this thread, I'm starting a new one on the topic of pizza quality & consistency.

How to ensure the pizza you order is top quality?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25321.new.html#new

---pete---

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2013, 06:14:08 PM »
Norma,
This is a really great, fun writeup you've done about your recent trip to Trenton and the pies you and Bill ate/saw. Nice writing and nice eye-spying!  8)
Please excuse a stupid question; but is Trenton the only place that puts cheese on a "tomato pie"? Thanks! :chef:

Bob
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Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2013, 10:22:21 PM »
Great posts Norma.
All these years ( 25 or so ) when I needed pizza for friend's , poker, kids etc , and can't fire the oven, my go-to pie is a long term corner take out shop in Roxborough (above Manyunk) , Alex's.
They clearly make a Trenton style tomato pie, virtually identical.
They would use a pastic plant watering spout to pour on the sauce, not a cruet, but the same general technique.
I now have a much better appreciation for the lineage and history of the Trenton style Tomato pie.
Perhaps the forum can add a new Trenton Style to the varieties under discussion.

Perry

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2013, 10:23:11 PM »
Norma,

I feel like I have already been to Trenton! Much more in-depth than what I learned watching "Pizza Cuz", but I would not have expected anything diferent from you!

Thanks again for the great write-ups!

John K

John,

Thanks, but I also have a lot to learn about Trenton tomato pies.  Someday I am going back to Trenton again and try more tomato pies.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2013, 10:29:50 PM »
Norma,

Do you know the size of the pizza you had at Rinaldi's and were you able to learn what size dough ball was used to make that pizza? And was any sugar used in the dough? And do you know the type of yeast used?

Peter

Peter,

I think the slice of pizza that I had at Risoldi's was from a 18” pizza.  I didn't think to ask what size dough ball that slice of pizza was from.  I asked about sugar and no sugar was used.  I didn't ask about the yeast, but I can call and see if I can talk to that same man if that helps at all.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2013, 10:31:13 PM »
As not to hi-jack this thread, I'm starting a new one on the topic of pizza quality & consistency.

How to ensure the pizza you order is top quality?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25321.new.html#new

---pete---

Thanks Pete!  ;)  I think you might get a lot of replies about how different pizzerias aren't always consistent.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2013, 10:35:19 PM »
Norma,
This is a really great, fun writeup you've done about your recent trip to Trenton and the pies you and Bill ate/saw. Nice writing and nice eye-spying!  8)
Please excuse a stupid question; but is Trenton the only place that puts cheese on a "tomato pie"? Thanks! :chef:

Bob

Bob,

Thanks!  Your question isn't stupid.  Mack's in Wildwood and Manco & Manco are also tomato pies in my opinion.  I'm sure there are others as well.  Even the local Papa Dino's near me applies the sauce and cheese about the same.

Norma


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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2013, 10:46:07 PM »
Great posts Norma.
All these years ( 25 or so ) when I needed pizza for friend's , poker, kids etc , and can't fire the oven, my go-to pie is a long term corner take out shop in Roxborough (above Manyunk) , Alex's.
They clearly make a Trenton style tomato pie, virtually identical.
They would use a pastic plant watering spout to pour on the sauce, not a cruet, but the same general technique.
I now have a much better appreciation for the lineage and history of the Trenton style Tomato pie.
Perhaps the forum can add a new Trenton Style to the varieties under discussion.

Perry

Perry,

I think there must be more tomato pies than we know of.  I have never been to Alex's, but their pizzas do sound about the same.  I took photos at Papa Dino's at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20093.0.html  If you are interested those photos and video show how Papa Dino's in Lancaster makes their pizzas.  I would venture to say they are also tomato pies.

If you look farther in the same thread at PowerWagonPete post at Reply 16 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20093.msg197449.html#msg197449 you can see that he posted that Trenton tomato pie heritage is in Papa Dino's pizza too. 

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2013, 10:57:53 PM »
Bob,

Thanks!  Your question isn't stupid.  Mack's in Wildwood and Manco & Manco are also tomato pies in my opinion.  I'm sure there are others as well.  Even the local Papa Dino's near me applies the sauce and cheese about the same.

Norma
OK Norma thank you. I just thought a tomato pie was the ones I see here that just have tomato sauce on it...usually see some garlic slivers on it too. I wonder when the Trenton folks started the name "tomato pie" when it has cheese on it and what the cheese less ones are called(not a cheese less NP marinara pie) .
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2013, 11:43:34 PM »
OK Norma thank you. I just thought a tomato pie was the ones I see here that just have tomato sauce on it...usually see some garlic slivers on it too. I wonder when the Trenton folks started the name "tomato pie" when it has cheese on it and what the cheese less ones are called(not a cheese less NP marinara pie) .

Bob,

I am not sure about all the history related to tomato pies, but in Wikipedia it says there are two types of tomato pies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_pie  I think I have had them both and can tell the differences in the two kinds of tomato pies. 

This is also an article about Trenton and its Tomato Pies. http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-20/food/fo-1109_1_tomato-pie

Bob1 brought Steve and me a Tomato Pie from near Philly and Steve and I went to a Tomato Pie shop near Philly too.  Those tomato pies are different than Trenton's or even the Papa Dino's pizzas.  I can give links to photos of the other kind of Tomato Pies where I posted about them.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2013, 03:54:58 AM »
Thanks Pete!  ;)  I think you might get a lot of replies about how different pizzerias aren't always consistent.

Norma, at Papa's you received a sub-standard/over baked pie. Before you ordered, did you say anything about your great interest in pizza making, or did you say all that stuff after you received your order. I ask because I'm trying to determine whether the pizza chef gave you any special treatment or was the pie you received just their standard service but they messed up a bit.

Also, what was PAPA's reaction to all the pics you took?

---pete---



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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2013, 07:19:13 AM »
Norma,

I think it would help to get the pizza size and corresponding dough ball weight. The reason is that the numbers you provided so far fall shy of an 80-lb dough batch if one assumes that a full 50-lb bag of flour and 15 quarts of water are used. Maybe the thickness factor approach will come closer. If you decide to call, you might also ask what brand of Kosher salt is used.

Peter

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2013, 07:41:45 AM »
Norma, at Papa's you received a sub-standard/over baked pie. Before you ordered, did you say anything about your great interest in pizza making, or did you say all that stuff after you received your order. I ask because I'm trying to determine whether the pizza chef gave you any special treatment or was the pie you received just their standard service but they messed up a bit.

Also, what was PAPA's reaction to all the pics you took?

---pete---

Pete,

I agree that Bill and I received a sub-standard/overbaked pie at Papa's and don't think that is the norm at Papa's.  What I said was I had watched the Pizza Cuz show on TV and had wanted to try Papa's famous tomato pies. I commented on the little folder that had all the information about Papa's and said I really enjoyed reading the history and reviews of Papa's. I said I have tried many pizzas at different pizza business.  I also said I traveled from Lancaster county in Pa. to try their tomato pies.  I never tell any pizzeria that I also own a small pizza business.  If anything, I just tell whom I am talking to that I like to try to make pizzas at home, but at Papa's I just said I wanted to record what I ate at Papa's and show the photos to my friends at home to show them what a tomato pie was.  I really don't think Bill's and my pizza was given any special treatment, but the people that work at Papa's were really nice.  Bill and I had thought about sending the pizza back, but decided against it.  I asked to go into Papa's kitchen to watch how the pizzas are made.  I asked to look at the dough and the man making the pizzas showed me the dough and how he makes the pizzas. 

This might be subjective, but the list of best pizzerias in NJ in 2010 contains Grimaldi's coal-burning oven where they dress their pies Trenton style. http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/25-perfect-pizzas.html  The one other thing I found interesting about what Bill told me about Trenton pizzas was there was a fair amount of coal-burning pizza ovens in Trenton at one point in time.

There are different articles on Slice about Trenton's tomato pies.  How many tomato pie pizzerias have you tried in Trenton?  I am always searching for my perfect NY style pizzas and I was probably fortunate that I found it at Joey's.  For me, that was my perfect NY style pizza, at least to this date.  I know everyone’s tastes are different, so what might be my perfect NY style pizza, might not be someone elses perfect pizza.  Maybe the stars were just aligned right that day that the pizza at Joey's tasted that good to me.  ;D I never will know unless I try another tomato pie at Joey's.  Bill also has tried many Trenton pizzas from all of the years he has lived in Trenton and he also said that was his favorite pizza.     

To add to all I have just posted, who would think that some little old lady would want to copy anyones pizza.   :-D

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 07:53:35 AM »
Norma,

I think it would help to get the pizza size and corresponding dough ball weight. The reason is that the numbers you provided so far fall shy of an 80-lb dough batch if one assumes that a full 50-lb bag of flour and 15 quarts of water are used. Maybe the thickness factor approach will come closer. If you decide to call, you might also ask what brand of Kosher salt is used.

Peter

Peter,

I will try to call later today to see if I can speak to the man at Risoldi's that makes the dough and pizzas to find out the information that would help you decide if can give a formulation.  I know the slice of pizza I had at Risoldi's was thin, which the other pizzas I had in Trenton were too.

The man first told me what to try for 1lb. of flour, but I have to find where I put that paper, or if I might have lost it.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 11:57:28 AM »
Norma,

I think it would help to get the pizza size and corresponding dough ball weight. The reason is that the numbers you provided so far fall shy of an 80-lb dough batch if one assumes that a full 50-lb bag of flour and 15 quarts of water are used. Maybe the thickness factor approach will come closer. If you decide to call, you might also ask what brand of Kosher salt is used.

Peter

Peter,

I call the pizzeria at Risoldi's and talked to Guy.  I asked Guy if he could give me a little more information about the dough before I try to make a tomato pie pizza at home.

I first asked if it mattered what kind of yeast that is used in the dough and Guy said it doesn't really matter.  I then asked what kind of yeast he uses since I can find about any kind of yeast in my area.  Guy told me he uses fresh yeast.  I then asked what was the size of the pizza that I had the slice from.  Guy said it was a 16” pizza.  I asked how much the dough ball weighed and he said the dough ball for a 16” pizza weighs 18 ounces.  The next question I asked was if it mattered what kind of Kosher salt is added to the dough and Guy said that doesn't matter either.  Of course I then asked what kind he uses and he told me he uses Morton's Kosher salt.   I then said I really can't do the math to convert his big recipe for me to try and he said it is easy to do the conversion because the water weight is 1/3 of the flour weight.  I questioned Guy again about how much water he uses for 50 lbs. of flour and Guy told me it was 12 quarts, or 3 gallons of water.  I made a mistake when I wrote down the amount of water before.  Guy asked me what size pizza stone I have at home and I said it was a 16” round pizza stone.  Guy told me to try 14 oz. of dough for my pizza.

Norma


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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2013, 12:50:36 PM »
Norma,

The 1/3 figure can't be right since that would give you a hydration value of 33.3%. The 3 gallon figure, which comes close to 1/2 of the flour weight is likely to be the correct value.

You might try this formulation on for size:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs |
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 31.5 tbsp | 1.97 cups
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | 67.2 tbsp | 4.2 cups
35607.6 g | 1256 oz | 78.5 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza = 18 oz; the corresponding thickness factor = 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

For a single dough ball, thid is what the dough formulation looks like:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
325.03 g  |  11.46 oz | 0.72 lbs
162.52 g  |  5.73 oz | 0.36 lbs
3.25 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs |
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
510.3 g | 18 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:54:52 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 01:00:03 PM »
Norma,

If the Trenton area pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, that most likely would be the 4X Pillsbury flour, such as described at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category.

Peter

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 01:00:30 PM »
Norma,

The 1/3 figure can't be right since that would give you a hydration value of 33.3%. The 3 gallon figure, which comes close to 1/2 of the flour weight is likely to be the correct value.

You might try this formulation on for size:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs |
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 31.5 tbsp | 1.97 cups
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | 67.2 tbsp | 4.2 cups
35607.6 g | 1256 oz | 78.5 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza = 18 oz; the corresponding thickness factor = 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

For a single dough ball, thid is what the dough formulation looks like:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
325.03 g  |  11.46 oz | 0.72 lbs
162.52 g  |  5.73 oz | 0.36 lbs
3.25 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs |
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
510.3 g | 18 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Peter,

Even though I am math challenged, I also thought that 1/3 figure couldn't be right.  Thanks so much for setting forth a formulation for me to try.  I will give it a go either at home or at market.

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 01:09:37 PM »
Norma,

If the Trenton area pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, that most likely would be the 4X Pillsbury flour, such as described at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category.

Peter

Peter,

I really don't know if Trenton are pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, but Guy told me he uses bread flour.  Trenton Bill just told me that is a popular flour for Trenton tomato pies.  Bill did go dumpster diving at Joey's yesterday and saw an empty bag of All Trumps.  Bill also went to Forconi Foods yesterday and they are not the distributor for Joey's.  I called Joey's this morning, but the owner wasn't in.  I am still trying to figure out about the type of sauce Joey's uses.  The flavor of the sauce baked on the pizza was so fresh and it didn't seem like any other ingredients were added. 

Thanks for telling me that if pizzerias in Trenton are using bread flour, that it most likely would be the Pillsbury 4X flour.  I will have to see if I have access to that flour. 

Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 07:06:59 PM »
This is the pizza Bill made me when I visited him.  He had his dough cold fermenting for 5 days.  Bill turned his oven down to about 500 degrees to try a simulate a lower bake temperature.  Bill bakes on quarry tiles and doesn't rotate his pizzas on the quarry tiles.  I asked Bill why he uses so much bench flour when he opens his dough ball, but that is what he does.  The crust was nice and crispy and the taste of the crust was good from the longer cold ferment time.  Bill said he made another pizza yesterday out of the same batch of dough.  The extra photos are of Bill's Cinema room and his stereo system.   

Thanks Bill for the nice time I had in Trenton, NJ!

I helped Bill understand the dough calculation tools while I was at his home.  Bill said he couldn't believe how easy they are to use.

Norma
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 07:12:13 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 07:10:42 PM »
Norma

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 07:42:48 PM »
Norma, love the pizzas, but Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turntable stole my heart.
Great report, thanks.
Marty

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 08:16:38 PM »
Norma, love the pizzas, but Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turntable stole my heart.
Great report, thanks.
Marty

Marty,

Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turn table sure was cool for me to see too.  8) I never saw a set-up like that before.  Bill used to buy and sell all kinds of tubes a long time before the internet was started.  I liked how the wire made the turntable go around (if that is how it should be said). Bill's stereo system sure sounded great.  Bill said the tubes from the USA were the best ones and explained why there were to me.  I guess someone always can learn something new from talking to someone.

Norma


 

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