Author Topic: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias  (Read 6920 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 07:53:35 AM »
Norma,

I think it would help to get the pizza size and corresponding dough ball weight. The reason is that the numbers you provided so far fall shy of an 80-lb dough batch if one assumes that a full 50-lb bag of flour and 15 quarts of water are used. Maybe the thickness factor approach will come closer. If you decide to call, you might also ask what brand of Kosher salt is used.

Peter

Peter,

I will try to call later today to see if I can speak to the man at Risoldi's that makes the dough and pizzas to find out the information that would help you decide if can give a formulation.  I know the slice of pizza I had at Risoldi's was thin, which the other pizzas I had in Trenton were too.

The man first told me what to try for 1lb. of flour, but I have to find where I put that paper, or if I might have lost it.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 11:57:28 AM »
Norma,

I think it would help to get the pizza size and corresponding dough ball weight. The reason is that the numbers you provided so far fall shy of an 80-lb dough batch if one assumes that a full 50-lb bag of flour and 15 quarts of water are used. Maybe the thickness factor approach will come closer. If you decide to call, you might also ask what brand of Kosher salt is used.

Peter

Peter,

I call the pizzeria at Risoldi's and talked to Guy.  I asked Guy if he could give me a little more information about the dough before I try to make a tomato pie pizza at home.

I first asked if it mattered what kind of yeast that is used in the dough and Guy said it doesn't really matter.  I then asked what kind of yeast he uses since I can find about any kind of yeast in my area.  Guy told me he uses fresh yeast.  I then asked what was the size of the pizza that I had the slice from.  Guy said it was a 16” pizza.  I asked how much the dough ball weighed and he said the dough ball for a 16” pizza weighs 18 ounces.  The next question I asked was if it mattered what kind of Kosher salt is added to the dough and Guy said that doesn't matter either.  Of course I then asked what kind he uses and he told me he uses Morton's Kosher salt.   I then said I really can't do the math to convert his big recipe for me to try and he said it is easy to do the conversion because the water weight is 1/3 of the flour weight.  I questioned Guy again about how much water he uses for 50 lbs. of flour and Guy told me it was 12 quarts, or 3 gallons of water.  I made a mistake when I wrote down the amount of water before.  Guy asked me what size pizza stone I have at home and I said it was a 16” round pizza stone.  Guy told me to try 14 oz. of dough for my pizza.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2013, 12:50:36 PM »
Norma,

The 1/3 figure can't be right since that would give you a hydration value of 33.3%. The 3 gallon figure, which comes close to 1/2 of the flour weight is likely to be the correct value.

You might try this formulation on for size:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs |
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 31.5 tbsp | 1.97 cups
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | 67.2 tbsp | 4.2 cups
35607.6 g | 1256 oz | 78.5 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza = 18 oz; the corresponding thickness factor = 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

For a single dough ball, thid is what the dough formulation looks like:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
325.03 g  |  11.46 oz | 0.72 lbs
162.52 g  |  5.73 oz | 0.36 lbs
3.25 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs |
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
510.3 g | 18 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

Peter
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:54:52 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 01:00:03 PM »
Norma,

If the Trenton area pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, that most likely would be the 4X Pillsbury flour, such as described at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category.

Peter

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 01:00:30 PM »
Norma,

The 1/3 figure can't be right since that would give you a hydration value of 33.3%. The 3 gallon figure, which comes close to 1/2 of the flour weight is likely to be the correct value.

You might try this formulation on for size:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11340 g  |  400 oz | 25 lbs
226.8 g | 8 oz | 0.5 lbs |
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 31.5 tbsp | 1.97 cups
907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | 67.2 tbsp | 4.2 cups
35607.6 g | 1256 oz | 78.5 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough for a single 16" pizza = 18 oz; the corresponding thickness factor = 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

For a single dough ball, thid is what the dough formulation looks like:

Bread Flour (100%):
Water (50%):
CY (1%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Total (157%):
325.03 g  |  11.46 oz | 0.72 lbs
162.52 g  |  5.73 oz | 0.36 lbs
3.25 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs |
6.5 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.35 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.89 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
510.3 g | 18 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 16" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08953; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Peter,

Even though I am math challenged, I also thought that 1/3 figure couldn't be right.  Thanks so much for setting forth a formulation for me to try.  I will give it a go either at home or at market.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 01:09:37 PM »
Norma,

If the Trenton area pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, that most likely would be the 4X Pillsbury flour, such as described at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category.

Peter


Peter,

I really don't know if Trenton are pizzerias are using Pillsbury bread flour, but Guy told me he uses bread flour.  Trenton Bill just told me that is a popular flour for Trenton tomato pies.  Bill did go dumpster diving at Joey's yesterday and saw an empty bag of All Trumps.  Bill also went to Forconi Foods yesterday and they are not the distributor for Joey's.  I called Joey's this morning, but the owner wasn't in.  I am still trying to figure out about the type of sauce Joey's uses.  The flavor of the sauce baked on the pizza was so fresh and it didn't seem like any other ingredients were added. 

Thanks for telling me that if pizzerias in Trenton are using bread flour, that it most likely would be the Pillsbury 4X flour.  I will have to see if I have access to that flour. 

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 07:06:59 PM »
This is the pizza Bill made me when I visited him.  He had his dough cold fermenting for 5 days.  Bill turned his oven down to about 500 degrees to try a simulate a lower bake temperature.  Bill bakes on quarry tiles and doesn't rotate his pizzas on the quarry tiles.  I asked Bill why he uses so much bench flour when he opens his dough ball, but that is what he does.  The crust was nice and crispy and the taste of the crust was good from the longer cold ferment time.  Bill said he made another pizza yesterday out of the same batch of dough.  The extra photos are of Bill's Cinema room and his stereo system.   

Thanks Bill for the nice time I had in Trenton, NJ!

I helped Bill understand the dough calculation tools while I was at his home.  Bill said he couldn't believe how easy they are to use.

Norma
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 07:12:13 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2013, 07:10:42 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2013, 07:42:48 PM »
Norma, love the pizzas, but Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turntable stole my heart.
Great report, thanks.
Marty

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2013, 08:16:38 PM »
Norma, love the pizzas, but Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turntable stole my heart.
Great report, thanks.
Marty

Marty,

Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turn table sure was cool for me to see too.  8) I never saw a set-up like that before.  Bill used to buy and sell all kinds of tubes a long time before the internet was started.  I liked how the wire made the turntable go around (if that is how it should be said). Bill's stereo system sure sounded great.  Bill said the tubes from the USA were the best ones and explained why there were to me.  I guess someone always can learn something new from talking to someone.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2013, 08:37:23 PM »
Marty,

Bill's vacuum tube amplifiers and record turn table sure was cool for me to see too.  8) I never saw a set-up like that before.  Bill used to buy and sell all kinds of tubes a long time before the internet was started.  I liked how the wire made the turntable go around (if that is how it should be said). Bill's stereo system sure sounded great.  Bill said the tubes from the USA were the best ones and explained why there were to me.  I guess someone always can learn something new from talking to someone.

Norma
What a coincidence Norma...I too am an audiophile and also collect vintage hi-fi equiptment. I don't know who your friend Bill is but sure would appreciate it if you would ask him to PM me if ever he has something for sale. I recognize some of his gear and he has good tastes.   8)
Thanks!  :)
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2013, 10:15:11 PM »
What a coincidence Norma...I too am an audiophile and also collect vintage hi-fi equiptment. I don't know who your friend Bill is but sure would appreciate it if you would ask him to PM me if ever he has something for sale. I recognize some of his gear and he has good tastes.   8)
Thanks!  :)


Bob,

If you are interested you can PM Bill yourself and ask him if he ever finds something for sale anymore.  Good to hear you are also a audiophile.  I sure don't know what that means, but Bill would. :-D   Bill doesn't post much here on the forum but this is Bill's screen name at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg254783.html#msg254783 when I was posting under Bill's screen name. 

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2013, 10:40:24 PM »
Bob,

If you are interested you can PM Bill yourself and ask him if he ever finds something for sale anymore.  Good to hear you are also a audiophile.  I sure don't know what that means, but Bill would. :-D   Bill doesn't post much here on the forum but this is Bill's screen name at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg254783.html#msg254783 when I was posting under Bill's screen name. 

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 08:39:14 AM »
Peter,

I look at my flour distributors website and they don't carry the Pillsbury 4X flour.  I called General Mills Professional Baking Solutions http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/find-sales-representative and tried to call different representatives to see where I could locate some Pillsbury 4X flour in my area.  The numbers I tried with Joesph Kelly being first, and then some other numbers given if he couldn't be reached ended in no one calling me back to this date.  Do you know what flour I can try that might be close to Pillsbury 4X flour until I can find out if I can locate some Pillsbury 4X flour?

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 09:17:22 AM »
Norma,

From a protein standpoint, the King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) would be close (at 12.7%), but that flour is not bleached or bromated. However, if you have a bleached and bromated high-gluten flour on hand with a protein content of about 14.2% and also the Occident flour with a protein content of 12.2%, you could use a blend of those two flours. The ratio would be 20% high-gluten flour and 80% Occident flour. That blend would also be bleached and bromated.

Peter

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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 10:11:35 AM »
Norma,

From a protein standpoint, the King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) would be close (at 12.7%), but that flour is not bleached or bromated. However, if you have a bleached and bromated high-gluten flour on hand with a protein content of about 14.2% and also the Occident flour with a protein content of 12.2%, you could use a blend of those two flours. The ratio would be 20% high-gluten flour and 80% Occident flour. That blend would also be bleached and bromated.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me what I can try until I see if I can purchase some Pillsbury 4 X flour.  I do have Kyrol flour which is bleached and bromated to be able to combined with the Occident flour.  Thanks also for telling me the blend ratio of the flours would be 20% high-gluten flour and 80% Occident flour.  I have to look, but also think I have some All Trumps somewhere stored.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 04:26:39 PM »
Joey's Pizza of Hamilton NJ

I walked into Joey's Pizza about 12pm on a Friday and said; "Hi, how are you today. I heard that you make a great pizza and I'd like to try one. What sizes do you have?" He smiled which was a good sign. I ordered a 14 inch Plain Cheese Pie. He actually asked me if I'd like that extra crispy. (very impressive!) I said; Yes, but not burnt." Fortunately, I was able to order directly from the pizza chef who would be baking my pie. So I felt assured he understood that I was a first time customer and would bake me a great pie.

After about 12 minutes the pie was done and I took it home to eat it. I opened the box lid and took a peek. It looked perfectly baked, more on the done side, and extra crispy just as I ordered. As I drove home, the scent was familiar for what I consider a great sauce.

As soon as I got home I checked the bottom and it was perfectly browned. The toppings appeared to be assembled similar to a Trenton Tomato pie where they apply splotches of sauce on top of the cheese. But understand, this is not considered a Trenton Style Tomato pie because the crust thicker than what many people consider to be an authentic Trenton Style Tomato Pie. It's sold as.. Plain Cheese pizza.

The sauce was great! Very bright, a little sweet, and my idea of a perfect pizza sauce. It's very similar to the sauce on Corleone's Tomato Pies which is my favorite place to get authentic Trenton Style Tomato Pie.

On Joey's pizza the balance of cheese to sauce was perfect. It tasted like mozzarella cheese to me. As you can see in the pics below, the crust is about medium thickness and perfectly browned without any burn marks. Judging by the tenderness of the crust, my guess is that they use some kind of bromated flour. It was so soft and tender that I was able to reheat a slice by holding it over the open flame for about 30 seconds of my stove at home. This crisped the bottom perfectly as if it was fresh baked a minute ago.

On a scale of 1 to 10 I give Joey's Plain Cheese Pizza a 10!
Highly recommended.


---pete---






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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 06:22:55 PM »
Tom Santos, from General Mills called me today, after I had left a message on his voice mail the other day.  Tom sure seems to know a lot about pizza dough and flours.

Tom asked me how he could help me and I said that I can't seem to find Pillsbury 4X patent flour at my local flour distributors.  He asked me why I wanted to use the Pillsbury 4X flour and I told him I had gone to Trenton, NJ and thought that maybe one of the pizzerias I ate at might be using Pillsbury 4X flour in their dough.  I told Tom that I was trying to make a Trenton style tomato pie and couldn't get the crust right in texture.  I did tell Tom that I used bakers percents for my dough formulations.  Tom asked me what kind of flour I was using now and I told him what I am using and what kind of pizzas I make with the flour I am using.  Tom asked me different things about my formulations and also how I mix the dough.  Tom told me I am really adding the oil wrong in the dough if I want to have a stretchy skin.  I thought what the heck am I doing wrong that I didn't find out here on the forum.  Tom told me when I was adding the oil to the water first, I would be coating the protein too fast and then the dough wouldn't be as stretchy and also it would give me a different texture in the final pizza.  Tom told me to try adding the flour, yeast, salt, water (and if any sugar is added to add them all together) and then mix only 45 seconds and no longer than a minute, then add the oil and continue to mix.  He said that then would give me a better stretching dough and final  pizza.  I don't recall if Tom's method of mixing has been mentioned on the forum before or not, but if it was I sure didn't remember it.  Tom said he has been all around the US and tried pizzas and helps pizza operators make their dough and pizzas better.  Tom also told me that if I am using sugar to only use about 1% sugar and about 3% oil and to have a lower hydration dough for a Trenton Style tomato pie.  Tom said he is familiar with Trenton tomato pies.  I told Tom I cold ferment my dough balls for one day. 

I also asked Tom if I couldn't find Pillsbury 4X flour in my area what other flours, or flour would be comparable.  He told me Full-Strength is almost exactly the same as Pillsbury 4X.  Tom said both flours have a protein of 12.6%.  I then asked what was the difference if both flours have a protein of 12.6%.  He said it was just a difference in the milling process and either flour should work for the kind of pizza I want to attempt.  Just not too long ago I started using a leftover bag of GM full-strength for bench flour, so I will have to wait until next week to purchase a bag to try.  I told Tom I never could get a formulation right when trying GM full-strength.   

I wish I could have talked to Tom longer because he sure seemed to know a lot about pizza doughs. 

This is an article I found about Tom Santos, Tim Huff and Bill Weekley.  I find it kind of amusing what is said in the article that they are known as the “Doughminators” and are on a mission to rescue pizza places from crust catastrophes.  The article also says that the pizza business accounts for such a large percentage of flour sales, but Tom, Tim and Bill found out that many pizza people don't know their dough.    http://www.blog.generalmills.com/2012/03/the-doughminators-to-the-rescue/  Are there any other questions anyone wants me to ask Tom about this style of dough?

This is the list of protein values of flours sold by General Mills.

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/category/pizza 

I forgot to ask, but really don't understand what patent flour is.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2013, 06:42:48 PM »
Joey's Pizza of Hamilton NJ

I walked into Joey's Pizza about 12pm on a Friday and said; "Hi, how are you today. I heard that you make a great pizza and I'd like to try one. What sizes do you have?" He smiled which was a good sign. I ordered a 14 inch Plain Cheese Pie. He actually asked me if I'd like that extra crispy. (very impressive!) I said; Yes, but not burnt." Fortunately, I was able to order directly from the pizza chef who would be baking my pie. So I felt assured he understood that I was a first time customer and would bake me a great pie.

After about 12 minutes the pie was done and I took it home to eat it. I opened the box lid and took a peek. It looked perfectly baked, more on the done side, and extra crispy just as I ordered. As I drove home, the scent was familiar for what I consider a great sauce.

As soon as I got home I checked the bottom and it was perfectly browned. The toppings appeared to be assembled similar to a Trenton Tomato pie where they apply splotches of sauce on top of the cheese. But understand, this is not considered a Trenton Style Tomato pie because the crust thicker than what many people consider to be an authentic Trenton Style Tomato Pie. It's sold as.. Plain Cheese pizza.

The sauce was great! Very bright, a little sweet, and my idea of a perfect pizza sauce. It's very similar to the sauce on Corleone's Tomato Pies which is my favorite place to get authentic Trenton Style Tomato Pie.

On Joey's pizza the balance of cheese to sauce was perfect. It tasted like mozzarella cheese to me. As you can see in the pics below, the crust is about medium thickness and perfectly browned without any burn marks. Judging by the tenderness of the crust, my guess is that they use some kind of bromated flour. It was so soft and tender that I was able to reheat a slice by holding it over the open flame for about 30 seconds of my stove at home. This crisped the bottom perfectly as if it was fresh baked a minute ago.

On a scale of 1 to 10 I give Joey's Plain Cheese Pizza a 10!
Highly recommended.


---pete---

Pete,

I am glad you decided to try Joey's pizza again and this time tried their regular cheese pizza, instead of the Old Fashioned Pizza you tried when you were there before.  The cheese pizza at 14” was the same pizza Bill and I ate.  Bill and I thought the sauce was great too.  If you think the cheese was mozzarella, what kind, or brand do you think it was?  Bill and I talked to another man that worked at Joey's Pizza and that man told us that the cheese that they use is cheddar even though mozzarella is mentioned as the cheese on Joey's website.  In the one photo I posted of Joey's pizza All Trumps flour can be seen if you would blow up one of those photos. 

I would give Joey's a 10 too and am going to try and recreate Joey's pizza if that is at all possible.  I enjoyed Joey's pizza better than any other NY style pizza I have ever eaten, if it even can be called a NY style pizza.  ;D

Thanks for doing a review of Joey's Pizza on my thread.

Norma
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Re: Trenton, NJ tomorrow to visit Trenton Bill and some pizzerias
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2013, 07:12:01 PM »
If you think the cheese was mozzarella, what kind, or brand do you think it was?  Bill and I talked to another man that worked at Joey's Pizza and that man told us that the cheese that they use is cheddar even though mozzarella is mentioned as the cheese on Joey's website.  :D

I'm not able to tell which brand of cheese it might be. I only use a 50:50 mix of Sorrrento and Maggio (both whole milk) mozz cheese, so that's all I know.

When buying cheese it's often easy to mix up between Sorrento and Sargento brands.
Here's how I remember...

Sargento..... aaaaaaaaaaarh (like a pirate) is not good. :(

Sorrento... is sooooooooooo good. :)

---pete---






 

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