Author Topic: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?  (Read 2327 times)

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Online TXCraig1

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Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« on: May 17, 2013, 01:14:14 PM »
Is there a risk when using IDY for a 24 hour+ room temperature ferment? By this I mean, you are using such a small amount and it is not dissolved in the formula water the way ADY, CY, or SD is. Is there any risk that the yeast will not be sufficiently distributed in the dough when using tiny quantities of IDY?

I'm specifically asking with respect to NP, but I imagine the answer would apply to NY or another style employing a long room temp ferment.
Pizza is not bread.


Online Mmmph

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 01:30:51 PM »
When I've used small amounts of IDY, particularly for a 24 hour room temp bulk ferment, I dissolved it in the formula water before adding the flour and salt. It seemed the way to prevent distribution probs.
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 01:35:39 PM »
Does it dissolve easily? Does the water need to be warm?
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Offline landras

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 01:38:43 PM »
couple of times I had problems using very small amounts, but since then I am sure to stir the yest very very well with the water, after that the water became kind of milky and I guess all the yeast is dissolve.

Online Mmmph

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2013, 03:34:59 PM »
Room temp water dissolves the IDY just fine in my DLX Assistent.
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Offline JimmyMak

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 06:15:23 PM »
I have taken a 1/4 teaspoon of IDY made a 100% hydration poolish approx 1cup water 1cup flour room temp approx 3or4 hrs. add that to total mix no additional IDY overnight then ball in morning then make pizza 5or6 hrs later a cool basement @ 65degrees very good sucess

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 06:17:35 PM »
Craig,

Some time ago, I played around with different ways of incorporating small amounts of yeast into a dough and could not say that it made a difference. See, for example, the discussion on this point in the opening post of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332.

Peter

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2013, 06:39:54 PM »
Great post Peter. Thank you.
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2013, 06:53:46 PM »
Something I read a bit ago on the ThinkTank which I found interesting is when Lehman was asked a question about lowering the yeast amount to prevent over proofed dough. Here is how he responded,

"I wouldn't recommend reducing the yeast any further as it is already quite low 1.5-ounces = 0.234% based on 40-pounds of flour, hopefully, this is IDY. Any further reduction will probably open the door for the development of a feared gum line, especially across the center of the pizza where the dough is most likely to collapse under the weight of the toppings."

So it seems as if he is saying low amounts of yeast lead to a gum line.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 07:00:40 PM »
Jeff,

I believe Tom discussed the low yeast gum line problem in the context of a cold fermentation application: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9074&p=61986&hilit=#p61986 .

Peter


Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 07:02:53 PM »
Jeff,

I believe Tom discussed the low yeast gum line problem in the context of a cold fermentation application: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9074&p=61986&hilit=#p61986 .

Peter

Oh ya, that is true, thanks. Why does low yeast in cold fermentation cause gum line while low yeast in room temp not cause it?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2013, 07:15:37 PM »
Jeff,

That's a good question. If I had to guess, I would say that the ambient temperature (e.g., room temperature) is high enough to cause the dough to ferment fairly quickly and to rise substantially so as to avoid the gum line problem. I suppose there may be some combination of yeast quantity and ambient temperature that will lead to a gum line, but I don't what such a combination would look like. The temperature would perhaps have to fairly low but still above a cold fermentation temperature.

Peter

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 08:31:02 AM »
What is "gum line"? Never heard of it. I checked the Pizza Making Glossary and did not see it. Perhaps it should be added??

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2013, 09:34:49 AM »
All;
Just to clarify a few things, IDY is best added directly to the flour, but when it does need to be prehydrated it should be prehydrated in a small quantity of water at 95F (manufacturer's recommendations) we confirmed this using instrumentation in our laboratory. If the temperature of the water is as little as 5F on either side of the 95F recommendation some gassing power of the yeast will be lost. Cold water is a real bummer with IDY since it will extract glutathione from the yeast for a double whammy, loss of yeast activity and a softer dough (glutathione is an amino acid contained within the yeast cell that when extracted has the same effect upon the dough as L-cysteine (think PZ-44). This is actually sold as "dead yeast" where it is used as a dough relaxer to reduce the elasticity of the dough. When the dough is only allowed to cold ferment you can go too low on the yeast level, this is due to the fact that all of the yeast is typically not working for you in a cold ferment situation unless you allow the dough to fully warm after removal from the cooler, which is counter productive in a pizzeria where you need to have the dough last for several hours after it is removed from the cooler. When you make your dough as "fresh" dough it is not refrigerates, hence all of the yeast is working to leaven the dough so there is less chance of developing the "dreaded gum line". What is a gum line? A gum line is defined as a gummy, somewhat under baked portion of the dough located directly under the sauce. It can range from 1/16 to 1/8-inch thick, and it looks something like a layer of pasta directly under the sauce. There are two ways to ascertain if you have a gum line. 1) Cut a slice from the pie and tear it down the middle from heel (rim/edge) to the point observing the way the dough cleaves as you pull it apart. If the dough stretches and pulls rather than tearing cleanly, congratulations, you have a gum line. The way I like to use is to turn a slice upside down and carefully cut it using a sharp knife (Exacto Knife or a box cutter) and light strokes to cut through the bottom crust. Once you have cut the slice in half (heel to point) pick up one half and carefully look at the area just under the sauce. A paper thin layer of discolored dough (about the thickness of a business card) is perfectly normal, if it is any thicker you are looking at a gum line. Why do we call it the "dreaded gum line? Because there are so many different things that can cause it (I've written several good articles on the topic in PMQ/In Lehmann's Terms) and until you find the right cause, you can't get rid of it. Why all the fuss? A gum line detracts from the eating characteristics of the pizza, and in a DELCO situation it contributes to unacceptably tough, chewy eating characteristics that won't go away. If you are going to eat the pizza while still fresh and hot out of the oven you might not even notice the gum line, thinking it is just a tougher, more chewy pizza. There are a whole raft of things that can cause the gum line development and these are all discussed in my articles.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 09:56:20 AM »
Thanks, Dr. Lehmann. That makes perfect sense. Luckily, I have not encountered a "gum line" in my short NP making experience. That is good to know! I use very little IDY mixed in a separate bowl of dry flour and I add it to the saltwater & flour mixture that has been somewhat mixed with about 80% of the remaining flour. For 2,550 grams of dough, at 61% hydration, I have recently used a mere 3 grams(0.194%) of IDY without any distribution issues so far in about 10 or so batches of dough. I get ten, 250g doughballs out of this, and so far, so good.

Still experimenting though.  :pizza:

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 10:18:05 AM »
I made some pies over the weekend with 0.03% IDY (0.4g in 1352g flour). IDY was measured with a reloading scale (0.4g = 6.3gr) I did dissolve the yeast in water, and I did warm it, but I doubt it was 90F. Maybe. In any case, it seemed to work just OK. No gum line. The rise was 14 hours bulk at 60F, 6 hours balls at 76F, 4 hours+ balls at 60F.

I still don't see how adding this little IDY directly to the flour would work. Even with perfect distribution, wouldn't there be lots and lots of space where there is no yeast? or is it sufficiently distributed during mixing and kneading?
Pizza is not bread.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2013, 10:19:52 AM »
Here is a typical post by Tom at the PMQ Think Tank on the subject of gum lines: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5652&hilit=#p34848 .

A search on this forum or on the PMQTT forum will also turn up several other posts on the subject.

Peter

Online TXCraig1

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 10:22:58 AM »
I did dissolve the yeast in water, and I did warm it,

I should note that I dissolved the IDY in about 1/4C of the formula water which I did warm. The rest of the water was probably closer to 40-45F. I dissolved the salt into the cold water then added the IDY directly to this and mixed. 75% of the flour was added fairly quickly after.
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Offline f.montoya

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 10:30:11 AM »
I made some pies over the weekend with 0.03% IDY (0.4g in 1352g flour). IDY was measured with a reloading scale (0.4g = 6.3gr) I did dissolve the yeast in water, and I did warm it, but I doubt it was 90F. Maybe. In any case, it seemed to work just OK. No gum line. The rise was 14 hours bulk at 60F, 6 hours balls at 76F, 4 hours+ balls at 60F.

I still don't see how adding this little IDY directly to the flour would work. Even with perfect distribution, wouldn't there be lots and lots of space where there is no yeast? or is it sufficiently distributed during mixing and kneading?

That is an extremely microscopic amount of yeast, indeed.

I could be wrong, but regardless of the amount of IDY, how well it gets distributed may depend on how moist of a mixture it is being added to, any autolyse periods (where hydration begins to evenly distribute) and the number of kneads, folds, stretches and rests. I tend to keep about 20% of my flour out of the mixing until after I have worked in the dry flour/IDY mixture thoroughly into what I call a pretty wet chunk of mass.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: Is there a risk when using tiny amounts of IDY?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2013, 10:46:00 AM »
Craig, it may seem to go against what Dr. Lehmann says about 95 degree water, but what if you tried dissolving your IDY into about 85% of the called for water in your formula at near ice water temp? Then mix that directly with about 80% of your flour. Then, dissolve your salt in the remaining 15% of cold water in a separate bowl or container and add that into the mixing before adding the remaining 20% of flour?

It would appear that the small amount of yeast would get evenly distributed in the larger portion of water, and thus evenly distribute in the dough. The salt water being added at a point where the yeast has already been hydrated and active, should cause no big issues with yeast-kill at all.

Put me in my place, if I'm wrong. These ideas just sort of pop up when I'm thinking about pizza.  :-D


 

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