Author Topic: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac  (Read 1106 times)

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Offline dbgtr

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Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« on: September 12, 2015, 09:29:49 AM »
Has anyone tried this?  I stumbled across this, this morning.

http://www.pennmac.com/page/570/


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2015, 02:26:31 PM »
Has anyone tried this?  I stumbled across this, this morning.

http://www.pennmac.com/page/570/

replaced malt with whole milk, and using starter instead of poolish. adjusting IDY for 4 hour rise, will post results later tonight  :chef:
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Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2015, 04:38:42 PM »
I just started their poolish.  I don't have a functioning stand mixer anymore, so I'm going to do a combination of things including no-knead.  I mixed the poolish much more than they recommended, trying to develop the gluten.  I'm going to leave it on the counter for their 18 hours and then finish the dough by hand, and let it sit again overnight, retard in the refrigerator until I can get to it and let it rise in the pan, do a prebake, cheese and sauce the pie etc.  Let me know if I'm out of my head. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2015, 05:04:21 PM »
I just started their poolish.  I don't have a functioning stand mixer anymore, so I'm going to do a combination of things including no-knead.  I mixed the poolish much more than they recommended, trying to develop the gluten.  I'm going to leave it on the counter for their 18 hours and then finish the dough by hand, and let it sit again overnight, retard in the refrigerator until I can get to it and let it rise in the pan, do a prebake, cheese and sauce the pie etc.  Let me know if I'm out of my head.
dbgtr,

I think you were OK until you said that you plan to leave the final dough sit again overnight. I assume you mean at room temperature. With 3 grams of ADY for 678 grams of flour, that is about 0.52% ADY. That will not survive an overnight room temperature fermentation. But if you would still like to use a room temperature overnight fermentation, you might want to use an amount of yeast that is consistent with that objective. I suggest that you use the chart at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398 to determine the appropriate amount of ADY to use. But that doesn't mean that it is wise and prudent to do even that since extending the fermentation period will alter the dough and maybe its ultimate performance since the recipe was not designed to include an overnight room temperature fermentation before refrigerating the dough. But if you want to learn about dough chemistry, then I will not discourage you from that learning experience .

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2015, 06:21:24 PM »
For yeast, I used IDY.  Ok, so that makes sense.  Do I want to cold ferment instead, for say another 8-12 hours, and will that survive given the additional yeast? Also, given Fleishman's recommendations on yeast, the cold water seems to be particularly ill advised with the ADY.  Seems like their recipe is long on the poolish and short on the regular dough in terms of fermentation.  Just spitballing here.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2015, 07:07:30 PM »
For yeast, I used IDY.  Ok, so that makes sense.  Do I want to cold ferment instead, for say another 8-12 hours, and will that survive given the additional yeast? Also, given Fleishman's recommendations on yeast, the cold water seems to be particularly ill advised with the ADY.  Seems like their recipe is long on the poolish and short on the regular dough in terms of fermentation.  Just spitballing here.
dbgtr,

You didn't indicate but did you use one-third of 1/8 teaspoon IDY for the poolish and 3 grams IDY for the final dough, or did you calculate the amount of IDY that is equivalent to the amount of ADY called for in the recipe you cited? If you used one-third of 1/8 teaspoon IDY for the poolish and 3 grams IDY for the final dough, the one-third of 1/8 teaspoon IDY would speed up the prefermentation of the poolish so that it will be ready in less than 18 hours under a normal room temperature. Depending on the actual room temperature, it could be ready a lot sooner. By "ready", I mean that the poolish will peak and then recede (the breakpoint) sooner than desired. The proper time to use the poolish is when it peaks and then recedes, although one should be OK for a few hours longer. But you may want to keep your eyes on the poolish to catch the breakpoint.

For the record, the proper amount of IDY to use in the recipe you cited is 0.09 grams for the poolish and 2.25 grams for the final dough. Since it is too late to do anything about the poolish if you used IDY in the same amount as the ADY called for in the recipe you can still use the proper amount of IDY for the final dough (2.25 grams). In that case, I think you can go for another 8-12 hours of cold fermentation, especially since the recipe calls for ice water in making the final dough, but you will still want to watch the dough so that it doesn't rise too fast. A doubling or even a tripling in the volume of the final dough should be OK.

In revisiting the recipe you cited, I wondered where the main part of the water was for the final dough. It looks like they put that part of the total water on the same line as the Diastatic Malt. The correct form of the recipe should be as follows:

Ingredients for your Dough:
 3 grams (1teaspoon) Active Dry Yeast
 90 grams ( cup plus 2 tablespoon) Warm Water (80F to 85F)
 578 grams (4 cups ) All Trump Flour
 13 grams (1 and 1/2 tablespoons) Diastatic Malt
 296 grams (1 cups) Ice Water
 90 grams Poolish
 13 grams (2 teaspoons) Fine Sea Salt
 7 grams (1/2 tablespoon) Extra Virgin Olive Oil
 Extra Olive Oil for coating the pan

Seeing the diastatic malt, I am not sure of its purpose in the recipe. The All Trumps flour is already malted. Usually one adds diastatic malt to the final dough when the preferment (poolish in your case) is used in a large amount and the prefermentation depletes the natural sugars in the flour, leaving residual sugars that are on the low side and insufficient to get good crust browning. In the recipe you cited, the poolish is only 90 grams. Typically, a poolish is used from about 20-80% of the total formula water and then elaborated by an equal weight of flour. For the recipe you cited, it is less than 30%. I would have to reconstruct the entire recipe to get a more accurate number. But the point is that around 30% poolish is not a lot of poolish, and would not suggest a need for diastatic malt. The only possible explanation I can see for the diastatic malt is if it is to produce more natural sugars. But it would be far simpler to just add some sugar (sucrose) to the recipe. Typically when diastatic malt is needed, it is used at 0.5-1% of the total flour. In the recipe you cited, it is about 2.1%. For that amount, the diastatic malt most likely is what is called a Low Diastatic Malt with a Lintner degrees value that is lower than a pure barley malt. Otherwise, with a 100% barley malt (with no flour or dextrose or other form of sugar as are used with low diastatic malts), you might end up with a dough that is slack, wet and sticky and hard to handle.

I'm also surprised that the recipe doesn't give specific baking instructions, especially after giving detailed instructions on how to make the dough.

If you don't mind reading about the above matters, these articles are very good:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Peter

 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2015, 08:42:36 PM »
dgbtr,

After my last post, I wondered whether PennMac sells diastatic malt. I did a search of the PennMac website and found that they do indeed sell diastatic malt, in repackaged form:

http://www.pennmac.com/items/5575//malt-barley-pizza-dough-sweet-caputo

If the above product is intended to be used in the recipe you cited, it is not a pure barley malt. A possible candidate at the retail level may be this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Fashioned-Diastatic/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 01:07:26 AM »
I noticed the problem with the numbers as well, and made the adjustment.  I used a higher water temperature, as Fleishman's really recommends it over 110, closer to 120F, and proofed the additional yeast, then combined it with the poolish and mixed it with the flour, letting it sit for a few minutes to hydrate.  Then I added the oil.  I mixed it in the bowl by hand fairly vigorously for about ten minutes.  Although I wasn't able to get it to come together and pull away from the sides, I was clearly getting some gluten development.  I put it all in clean, oiled bowl with plastic wrap and I'll report back in a few days.

I should add that I used KABF and no diastatic malt, as I didn't have it.  King Arthur sells diastatic malt through their webstore, http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-4-oz-jar
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 08:44:43 AM by dbgtr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 08:47:29 AM »
dbgtr,

The usual recommendation for prehydrating ADY in the context of pizza dough is to use an amount of water that is around 4-5 times the weight of the ADY, at around 105 degrees F, and let the mixture sit for about 10 minutes. An alternative method that is sometimes advocated by yeast producers is to mix the ADY in with the flour and use water at around 120-130 degrees F. The problem with this method when used to make pizza dough is that the finished dough temperature can exceed about 75-80 degrees F (in a home setting, where the dough is to be cold fermented in a standard home refrigerator).

When using IDY, there is usually no need to prehydrate it but prehydating IDY is often recommended when the dough is to be made by hand, as you are doing, or where the knead time, no matter whether by machine or by hand, will be less than about 5 minutes.

Can you tell me how much IDY you used for the poolish and for the final dough? And what kind of diastatic malt did you use? And also what other changes you made? I'd like to follow what you are doing from a science standpoint.

Peter


Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 09:00:15 AM »
Sadly, I eyeballed the yeast on the poolish, and I know it was more than it should have been.  Last night when I posted, it was clear that the poolish was ready as it was more than doubled in size, but hadn't collapsed, so I proceeded to make the final dough.  I measured out the final yeast by gram weight, so that is at least spot on.  As I mentioned in my previous post, I didn't have any malt, so that part was skipped.  I kneaded it with my hand in the bowl, grabbing a handful and pulling it round and round the bowl as if I was using a spoon to make a poolish.  I'd stop, spin the bowl and do it again.  It was fairly vigorous, but also very tiring.  The dough was pulling away from the bowl on the sides, but not from the bottom and I didn't have the energy to try and get that last bit, so given the long ferment, I chose to drop it into a clean and oiled bowl, covered with plastic wrap and put it in the refrigerator.  I can say that the dough is rising healthily as of this morning.  I'm betting that I used too much yeast in the poolish and that I won't be able to get a 24-48 hour rise, as even in the refrigerator, it has already almost doubled so your point about dough temperature will be an issue.  I'll let it go until this afternoon and decide then how to proceed.  I'm betting I'm going to cook them off tonight.  The plan being for a 10 minute prebake with EVO on the bottom rack and then top and finish in the middle.  Given the problem with kneading, I'm going to try and use the high bake temperature used for the no-knead bread, and turn it down once the oven is closed. 

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2015, 09:19:35 AM »
I did have one procedural question.  After pulling the dough from the refrigerator, can I just spread it in the pan, cover it with oiled plastic wrap, and allow it to both come to temperature as well as proof, and in terms of proofing, how much do I want it to proof?  Doubled again?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2015, 10:01:51 AM »
dbgty,

Thanks for the clarification on the malt. I wondered how I missed that but saw that you edited your post while I was composing a new one. But I don't see any harm in leaving out the malt since I didn't think it was needed. For the record, the King Arthur diastatic malt is not the same as the diastatic malt sold by PennMac. The KA product includes flour, barley malt and a sugar, but the order of those ingredients is different than the PennMac product. So, unless you use the right amount, it is unlikely to perform like the PennMac diastatic malt.

I also do not see any harm in what you did in advancing the incorporation of the poolish into the final dough as you did. What it means is that you will not get the same flavor profile as you would have had you been able to let the poolish preferment for the entire 18 hour period at room temperature and generate all of those wonderful byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor. The reason I asked you how much IDY you were using for the final dough is to see if it was too much for the period of cold fermentation you wanted to use. As you can see, making a poolish-based dough with cold fermentation is like a laboratory science experiment. :-D

With respect to your question about how you propose to prepare the dough for baking, the expert on that matter is Norma. Hopefully, she will see your post and comment, given that she makes many Detroit style pizzas at market and knows the subject inside and out. However, that said, I know that there are many different ways of making Sicilian style pizzas and that was one of the reasons I complained about the recipe you used not having detailed baking instructions. In Norma's case, my recollection is that she uses a hydration of better than 70% so that makes it easier to put the dough into the pan and spread it out. In your case, for the recipe you are using, I calculated a hydration of a bit over 69%. So, I think you should not have a problem putting the dough into the pan and spreading it out. From that point, some people let the dough rise again, and a doubling does not seem unreasonable. But some people prebake the dough, with or without sauce but nothing more, and then add cheese and toppings, and finish the bake. Others do not prebake at all and dress the pizza in the usual manner, even though that might not result in a crust with a lot of lift or a light and airy crumb. It would have been nice if the recipe you used also covered how to dress the pizzas.

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2015, 10:12:11 AM »
I had about 13 or 14 hours of fermentation on the poolish, so while not the 18, not horrible either.  When I made the course correction on the hydration, I actually upped the hydration to 80%, so that will change things as well.  As for the recipe, it doesn't include any information beyond the fermentation.  I don't have a black steel pan, so these will be baked in my restaurant grade heavy aluminum 1/2 sheet pans, which is another reason for my wanting the prebake to try and get some good initial browning.

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2015, 03:39:31 PM »
As I suspected, I didn't make the 24hrs....however, the dough seems ok.  I punched it down, and did several folds end to middle, and the dough seems to be smooth, springy and elastic.  I covered it with oiled plastic wrap, and am letting it rest on the counter before laying it out in the pan.  I'm going to cover it in plastic and let it proof until doubled.  More to follow.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 03:41:44 PM by dbgtr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 04:20:52 PM »
dbgtr,

Increasing the hydration value in itself will cause the dough to ferment faster because the soluble solids in the higher hydration dough become diluted, causing a decrease in osmotic pressure on the yeast and thereby increasing its activity. Having an excess of yeast isn't necessarily a death sentence. If the dough is rising and has to be punched down, that is a sign that the yeast is still getting adequately fed. What you end up with will reflect the entire history of your dough from the moment you made it to the moment you use it. I'm guessing that you will succeed but I can't predict whether you will like the final results because you changed the programming of your dough by the changes you made to the recipe.

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 04:26:10 PM »
I know.  It's a science experiment gone wrong, with the controls abandoned!  The dough is stretched out in the pans and are resting for a few hours.  It's interesting that the increased hydration makes the yeast more efficient.  What percentage of yeast would one want to see in an 80% hydration dough?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2015, 04:38:25 PM »
I know.  It's a science experiment gone wrong, with the controls abandoned!  The dough is stretched out in the pans and are resting for a few hours.  It's interesting that the increased hydration makes the yeast more efficient.  What percentage of yeast would one want to see in an 80% hydration dough?
dbgtr,

There is no single answer to your question on the amount of yeast for an 80% hydration dough. In general, for any given dough formulation, the key players are the amount of yeast, the fermentation protocol and fermentation temperatures, (e.g., cold fermentation, ambient temperature fermentation, or a combination thereof), and time. Time results from the other factors but it is possible to control the other factors so that the dough is ready when you want it. Secondary factors that can also change outcomes are salt and sugar which, in large enough amounts, can impair yeast performance by the osmotic pressure they exert on the yeast. Hydration values can also affect the outcome by speeding up or slowing down the fermentation process.

Peter


Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2015, 08:00:53 PM »
 Here's a shot of the dough after it rose in the pan, just before it went into the oven for the prebake.


Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2015, 08:36:50 PM »
WAH!!

 Very dense crumb,  no air pockets, disappointing. I can't help but wonder whether or not the prebake is part of the problem as it takes a while to build the pie and while that's happening it doesn't have the structure yet necessary to support the weight of the topping.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2015, 08:22:25 AM »
dgbtr,

I'm sorry to hear that your Sicilian pizza did not turn out well.

Since there were no instructions given in the recipe you used for dressing and baking the pizza, can you tell us in detail how you handled those aspects?

Also, I wonder whether a hydration of 80%, along with the increased amount of yeast, might have created a structure that was too fragile or weak to support everything. Using a hydration of 80% for a Sicilian pizza is not unheard of, as I so noted a few years ago in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13637.msg136352;topicseen#msg136352, but more typical is a hydration in the mid-sixties, and in the seventies for certain types of pizzas that owe their heritage to Sicily, like the Detroit style pizzas. I might all add that many Sicilian pizzas, especially the classic Sicilian pizzas, use toppings rather sparingly.

Peter

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2015, 08:09:34 PM »
pictures explain it. dough had a weak structure, and fell when topped. maintained a doughy, 'gum line' middle. used a very thick, applied very thin sauce. raised for 48 hours, cold, reballed at 12 hours.

but, the taste was exactly what it needed to be for a sicilian
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Offline dbgtr

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Re: Sicilian dough recipe from Penn Mac
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2015, 08:13:57 PM »
Well, I guess even when the recipe is followed it isn't all that.  It seems to have had the same structural problems that I had, even when following the recipe.  Not that I'm in favor of failures, but they are teaching moments.


 

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