Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 98544 times)

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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1025 on: June 13, 2014, 01:28:56 AM »
OK, another attempt.
This time I went the way of a bit drier dough, hardly any oven rise, and a crispy crust.
There was not much planning here, but I had a 4 day (I think) dough ball waiting to become a pizza.
Similar dough processing to the prior dough, and just Gold Medal AP.

The first try at tomato pie seemed a little bready, so this one I stretched with plenty of bench flour.
The dough was more extensible than the one day dough and pretty easily worked out to 14" ( I need a bigger peel) on the bench and then a few easy tosses. It looked smoother than the previous effort. Some of the dough didn't fit on the screen, so it was inelegantly folded over.

Here's the catch.....I couldn't follow up properly by heating up the stone and making the pie with in the next hour. I went and played in my roller hockey league, and returned hungry about 3 hours later.

The skin was covered with paper towels to help against dehydration.
The oven got up to about 500, and I wanted to eat, so in it went for about 7 minutes.
Then down to the broiler for another 7. In between I moved the stone down to the broiler to try and get some browning. I need my pizza steel.

This time I had some Muir Glenn tomatoes/sauce and some Italbrand tomatoes as the sauce.
Cheese, then sauce and sausage.
Fresh basil, oil, and pepper after the bake.

This pie was much tastier than the first pie (hello, sausage), and was much crispier.
It was still pretty moist, and closer to the edge I could hear myself crunching away.
I think less drying time would have been a happy medium, so I'll try that next time.

I'm wondering if the Trenton pies have visible bubbles in the cooked crust, or is it more of a cracker, layer kind of thing. This pie had a bit of bubbles, but not much.

Good stuff though.....I wish I could try a real tomato pie.
I like this style, though. The cheese first keeps the crust from getting too wet.
Brilliant!

« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 01:31:40 AM by woodmakesitgood »
Charles


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1026 on: June 13, 2014, 08:16:12 AM »
OK, another attempt.
This time I went the way of a bit drier dough, hardly any oven rise, and a crispy crust.
There was not much planning here, but I had a 4 day (I think) dough ball waiting to become a pizza.
Similar dough processing to the prior dough, and just Gold Medal AP.

The first try at tomato pie seemed a little bready, so this one I stretched with plenty of bench flour.
The dough was more extensible than the one day dough and pretty easily worked out to 14" ( I need a bigger peel) on the bench and then a few easy tosses. It looked smoother than the previous effort. Some of the dough didn't fit on the screen, so it was inelegantly folded over.

Here's the catch.....I couldn't follow up properly by heating up the stone and making the pie with in the next hour. I went and played in my roller hockey league, and returned hungry about 3 hours later.

The skin was covered with paper towels to help against dehydration.
The oven got up to about 500, and I wanted to eat, so in it went for about 7 minutes.
Then down to the broiler for another 7. In between I moved the stone down to the broiler to try and get some browning. I need my pizza steel.

This time I had some Muir Glenn tomatoes/sauce and some Italbrand tomatoes as the sauce.
Cheese, then sauce and sausage.
Fresh basil, oil, and pepper after the bake.

This pie was much tastier than the first pie (hello, sausage), and was much crispier.
It was still pretty moist, and closer to the edge I could hear myself crunching away.
I think less drying time would have been a happy medium, so I'll try that next time.

I'm wondering if the Trenton pies have visible bubbles in the cooked crust, or is it more of a cracker, layer kind of thing. This pie had a bit of bubbles, but not much.

Good stuff though.....I wish I could try a real tomato pie.
I like this style, though. The cheese first keeps the crust from getting too wet.
Brilliant!

woodmakesitgood,

Are you using one of the De Lorenzo's/Sloans formulations from this thread to make your dough?  The reason I asked is because I can't tell because you left your dough skin sit out.  Your dough skin looks too dry.  I know you posted that you could not use the skin right away because of going to play in your roller hockey league.  Usually letting a dough skin sit out will dry it out too much even if you used paper towels. 

I think heating your stone for at least an hour will be the best if you decide to try another attempt. 

De Lorenzo's tomato pies really aren't like a cracker style pizza in the crust.  I can't exactly explain them right but there is a crispness almost the whole way across the bottom crust.

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

If you look at De Lorenzo's tomato pies website that will give you an idea what their tomato pies look like.  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html  I am not sure if this link will work but if you search De Lorenzo's tomato pies under Google images you can see many photos of what a De Lorenzo's tomato pie is supposed to look like.  https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=979&q=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&oq=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&gs_l=img.3...4331.24648.0.25282.42.37.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.46.img..42.0.0.WYWjGxjAWuU

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1027 on: June 13, 2014, 08:27:06 AM »
After looking at this link again in my opinion De Lorenzo's dough could be tossed.  If this one photo is looked at in the link, and the one I am posting, it shows how stretchy that dough is.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/11/owners_of_delorenzos_tomato_pies_in_robbinsville_planning_pennsylvania_restaurant.html 

What do other members think about how stretchy that dough looks?  If I magnify that photo the dough does look a little dry but has good stretching properties.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1028 on: June 13, 2014, 08:51:53 AM »
After thinking about the pizza I had at Star Tavern and comparing it too the tomato pie I had at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville I think the bottom crust tasted almost the same even though both pizzerias use different methods to bake their pizzas.  This is a link to show a few more photos at De Lorenzo's Robbinville.  I think it the same bottom crunchy crust that makes both bottom crusts taste about the same to me.  Both pizzas are also very thin.

http://endoedibles.com/?p=13839

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1029 on: June 13, 2014, 09:01:03 AM »
After looking at this link again in my opinion De Lorenzo's dough could be tossed.  If this one photo is looked at in the link, and the one I am posting, it shows how stretchy that dough is.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/11/owners_of_delorenzos_tomato_pies_in_robbinsville_planning_pennsylvania_restaurant.html 

What do other members think about how stretchy that dough looks?  If I magnify that photo the dough does look a little dry but has good stretching properties.

Norma
Norma,

I do not believe that we have ever seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville (and maybe even at the original location) tossed or twirled a skin. But that does not mean that it was not possible to do so. In this vein, you might recall that in Reply 627 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg279272#msg279272 I attempted to give a few reasons for not doing so. In my own experience with De Lorenzo clone doughs, I found that even with fairly modest hydration values and modest amounts of oil, it was not a good idea to attempt to toss or twirl the skins once they got to around 14". The reason was that the thickness factors we were using at the time were too small to risk stretching beyond 14" and then tossing and twirling and risking thin spots or tears developing in the skins. Since there was no need to toss and twirl skins, and the workers at De Lorenzo's apparently saw no need to entertain or put on a show for their guests by doing so, then why do it?

The other thing to keep in mind, which I am sure you have experienced yourself many times, both at home and at market, is that on any given day at any given moment, the dough can be just about anything--underfermented, overfermented or something in between. So, I wouldn't rely on a single photo as indicative of the way that things always are at De Lorenzo's. I am sure that they have their days where they do whatever they want to their skins with impunity and other days where they have to treat their skins with kid gloves.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1030 on: June 13, 2014, 09:34:39 AM »
Norma,

I do not believe that we have ever seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville (and maybe even at the original location) tossed or twirled a skin. But that does not mean that it was not possible to do so. In this vein, you might recall that in Reply 627 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg279272#msg279272 I attempted to give a few reasons for not doing so. In my own experience with De Lorenzo clone doughs, I found that even with fairly modest hydration values and modest amounts of oil, it was not a good idea to attempt to toss or twirl the skins once they got to around 14". The reason was that the thickness factors we were using at the time were too small to risk stretching beyond 14" and then tossing and twirling and risking thin spots or tears developing in the skins. Since there was no need to toss and twirl skins, and the workers at De Lorenzo's apparently saw no need to entertain or put on a show for their guests by doing so, then why do it?

The other thing to keep in mind, which I am sure you have experienced yourself many times, both at home and at market, is that on any given day at any given moment, the dough can be just about anything--underfermented, overfermented or something in between. So, I wouldn't rely on a single photo as indicative of the way that things always are at De Lorenzo's. I am sure that they have their days where they do whatever they want to their skins with impunity and other days where they have to treat their skins with kid gloves.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that we have never seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's Robbinsville/or the other location have tossed or twirled a skin.  I recalled some of your post in Reply 627 but it was good to read it again.  I agree that is no need for De Lorenzo's to toss or twirl the dough and it would not serve any purpose even if they could toss and twirl the skin.  I somewhat forgot what those dough balls looked like in the first video you posted.  I wish we could see a photo of how the dough balls look like after they are fermented. 

Yes, I do know that on any given day the same dough can do many different things.  Many pizzeria operators also say the same.

If the photos I posted at Star Tavern are looked at it can be seen how the bottom crust looks about the same.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30978.msg308629#msg308629  I know when playing around with different formulations and different ovens one formulation can give very different results in different ovens.  Do you think the thinness and the bottom crust look almost like De Lorenzo's pizza? 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1031 on: June 13, 2014, 09:53:57 AM »
Do you think the thinness and the bottom crust look almost like De Lorenzo's pizza? 

Norma
Norma,

If I had to guess from looking at the Star Tavern photos, they perhaps use a smaller thickness factor value than used at De Lorenzo's. Also, since the workers at Star Tavern roll out the skins with rolling pins or something similar, the bottom crusts at Star Tavern look even thinner than the De Lorenzo bottom crusts. Since you have had pizzas at both places, was that your impression also?

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1032 on: June 13, 2014, 02:57:00 PM »
woodmakesitgood,

Are you using one of the De Lorenzo's/Sloans formulations from this thread to make your dough?  The reason I asked is because I can't tell because you left your dough skin sit out.  Your dough skin looks too dry.  I know you posted that you could not use the skin right away because of going to play in your roller hockey league.  Usually letting a dough skin sit out will dry it out too much even if you used paper towels. 

I think heating your stone for at least an hour will be the best if you decide to try another attempt. 

De Lorenzo's tomato pies really aren't like a cracker style pizza in the crust.  I can't exactly explain them right but there is a crispness almost the whole way across the bottom crust.

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

If you look at De Lorenzo's tomato pies website that will give you an idea what their tomato pies look like.  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html  I am not sure if this link will work but if you search De Lorenzo's tomato pies under Google images you can see many photos of what a De Lorenzo's tomato pie is supposed to look like.  https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=979&q=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&oq=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&gs_l=img.3...4331.24648.0.25282.42.37.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.46.img..42.0.0.WYWjGxjAWuU

Norma


Hi Norma, I think this dough was one of Peter's formulations from this thread, the one using Pillsbury AP flour.
Yes, the dough got a bit dry sitting out, but the cooked slice still was moist and had some flexibility.

It wouldn't be confused with a Trenton pie I'm sure, but I hope to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.
That way, even if I don't replicate a DL pie, I will have a pie that I like, is well made, and is reproducible.

The next time, I will have my 1/2" steel, and I'll pre-heat it to 550 if possible, using the IR gun.

No, I didn't roll the dough, and normally do not.....but I keep it handy just in case.  ;D
Thanks for the links, I'll try to learn what I can from the photos.
Charles

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1033 on: June 13, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

Norma


Norma, thanks for advice on bench flour.
I may have used a bit much in helping the handling of the skin, I wanted this skin thin with no weak spots.
I think the video you posted from Robbinsville shows an efficient use of bench flour.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275403#msg275403


Also, they are able to fold and stack the finished skins....because of low hydration dough, or bench flour, or both?
How to get a thin dough, which is low hydration, very thin seems to be key.

The prior comments show that DeLorenzo piemen bang out, gravity stretch, and knuckle stretch the dough.
I felt like I couldn't get this ball to 14" without a toss, and that a knuckle stretch might make a tear, but that was just a feeling.

Charles


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1034 on: June 13, 2014, 04:12:37 PM »
I know this reverse engineer is no where near "Case Closed!", but what doughs have made a really representative crust so far?

Is it possibly Trenton Bill's 63% hydration effort here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg296709#msg296709

Or maybe Norma's attempt of Peter's Sloan Clone Dough (say that fast five times  :o) #3:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970

Or Peter's Dough Clone Formulation #6:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529
Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1035 on: June 13, 2014, 06:08:46 PM »
Norma,

If I had to guess from looking at the Star Tavern photos, they perhaps use a smaller thickness factor value than used at De Lorenzo's. Also, since the workers at Star Tavern roll out the skins with rolling pins or something similar, the bottom crusts at Star Tavern look even thinner than the De Lorenzo bottom crusts. Since you have had pizzas at both places, was that your impression also?

Peter

Peter,

I did not notice the crust was thinner at Star Tavern.  What I noticed was the crust was crispy something like De Lorenzo's crust, had a little char and also was very easy to eat.  I have no idea really why De Lorenzo's bottom crust reminds me of a Star Tavern bottom crust if they aren't the same TF.   

I tried your dough formulation at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12769.msg123378#msg123378 without the Semolina when I attempted some Star Tavern bar style pizzas.  I see the TF is lower than what you posted for De Lorenzo's clone doughs.

Norma 

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1036 on: June 13, 2014, 06:15:02 PM »

Hi Norma, I think this dough was one of Peter's formulations from this thread, the one using Pillsbury AP flour.
Yes, the dough got a bit dry sitting out, but the cooked slice still was moist and had some flexibility.

It wouldn't be confused with a Trenton pie I'm sure, but I hope to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.
That way, even if I don't replicate a DL pie, I will have a pie that I like, is well made, and is reproducible.

The next time, I will have my 1/2" steel, and I'll pre-heat it to 550 if possible, using the IR gun.

No, I didn't roll the dough, and normally do not.....but I keep it handy just in case.  ;D
Thanks for the links, I'll try to learn what I can from the photos.

Charles,

Good to hear you want to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.  Did you ever really eat a De Lorenzo's pizza?  It is good if you are will be satisfied if you can make a pizza you like.  De Lorenzo's bake is a fairly long bake.  I have no idea how the 1/2” steel will work at 550 degrees F for your next attempt.  Maybe a member that knows about using the baking steel can comment. 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1037 on: June 13, 2014, 06:23:22 PM »

Norma, thanks for advice on bench flour.
I may have used a bit much in helping the handling of the skin, I wanted this skin thin with no weak spots.
I think the video you posted from Robbinsville shows an efficient use of bench flour.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275403#msg275403


Also, they are able to fold and stack the finished skins....because of low hydration dough, or bench flour, or both?
How to get a thin dough, which is low hydration, very thin seems to be key.

The prior comments show that DeLorenzo piemen bang out, gravity stretch, and knuckle stretch the dough.
I felt like I couldn't get this ball to 14" without a toss, and that a knuckle stretch might make a tear, but that was just a feeling.

Charles,

What do you really mean about the video I posted shows an efficient use of bench flour? To my eyes that did not seem like a lot of bench flour to me. 

I would guess that De Lorenzo's workers are able to fold and stack the finished skin because of the lower hydration and the use of bench flour.  Maybe Peter can comment more on what he thinks about that. 

When I tried some of Peter's formulations I felt I could bang the dough, do the gravity stretch and then knuckle stretch the dough a little.  Maybe you just need a little more practice.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1038 on: June 13, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »
I know this reverse engineer is no where near "Case Closed!", but what doughs have made a really representative crust so far?

Is it possibly Trenton Bill's 63% hydration effort here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg296709#msg296709

Or maybe Norma's attempt of Peter's Sloan Clone Dough (say that fast five times  :o) #3:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970

Or Peter's Dough Clone Formulation #6:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529

Charles,

I wish I really knew the answer to that question.  I have not tried enough of the formulations out myself in different ovens.  Stuart asked me the same question if I recall correctly.  If there were more members trying the different formulations in different ovens maybe we could have a better answer.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1039 on: June 13, 2014, 06:38:00 PM »
Charles,

What do you really mean about the video I posted shows an efficient use of bench flour? To my eyes that did not seem like a lot of bench flour to me. 


Norma

Norma, I mean it looked like he used bench flour with good technique, even throwing some flour onto the skin when needed, not necessarily "a lot" of bench flour.

And yes, I definitely need more practice.

Charles

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1040 on: June 13, 2014, 06:53:58 PM »
Norma, I mean it looked like he used bench flour with good technique, even throwing some flour onto the skin when needed, not necessarily "a lot" of bench flour.

And yes, I definitely need more practice.

Charles,

Thanks for explaining.  I can always use practice too when I haven't tried the same style for awhile.   :-D

Good luck!

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1041 on: June 15, 2014, 06:46:44 PM »
If anyone is interested I made another attempt at a De Lorenzo's tomato pie in the Blackstone today.  I used Peter's #6 clone dough formulation at Reply 745 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg281529#msg281529  The other photos of the De Lorenzo's tomato pie start at Reply 640 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg319801#msg319801

The dough felt dry after it was mixed but softened when fermenting.  There were no rips or tears when draping the skin dough over the table and opening more.  The dough skin felt very good in my opinion.

Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1042 on: June 17, 2014, 10:28:44 PM »
Just a quick update, with a similar clone to last time, Gold Medal AP, 57% hydration.
Next time I'll hopefully have some higher gluten flour to work with.

Waiting for my baking steel, this one had a long cold ferment at 9 days.
Maybe it was a little over fermented, but the crust tasted quite good.
The TF came in at 0.062

Also, this was my first try with the baking steel in the broiler underneath and the stone in the main oven.The RF thermometer read variable in spots, but the stone was about 600, and the steel a little lower. The bake was 7 minutes on the stone and 3 on the steel.

Tasty, crisp, could have used a little more oven rise maybe.
The basil... I can't resist, after watching video of old school pieman adding basil and oil after the bake. I'd like to find one of those oil cans with a spout.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 10:33:48 PM by woodmakesitgood »
Charles

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1043 on: June 17, 2014, 11:08:55 PM »
Just a quick update, with a similar clone to last time, Gold Medal AP, 57% hydration.
Next time I'll hopefully have some higher gluten flour to work with.

Waiting for my baking steel, this one had a long cold ferment at 9 days.
Maybe it was a little over fermented, but the crust tasted quite good.
The TF came in at 0.062

Also, this was my first try with the baking steel in the broiler underneath and the stone in the main oven.The RF thermometer read variable in spots, but the stone was about 600, and the steel a little lower. The bake was 7 minutes on the stone and 3 on the steel.

Tasty, crisp, could have used a little more oven rise maybe.
The basil... I can't resist, after watching video of old school pieman adding basil and oil after the bake. I'd like to find one of those oil cans with a spout.

Charles,

Nice looking attempt on your tomato pie!   :) The basil added a nice touch.  How did your dough handle for this attempt?

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1044 on: June 17, 2014, 11:32:42 PM »
Charles,

Nice looking attempt on your tomato pie!   :) The basil added a nice touch.  How did your dough handle for this attempt?

Norma


Thanks Norma, I do like making, and eating, this style of pie.

The dough was interesting..... at first when I took it out of the fridge, it was a little wet, and I was worried it would be clammy and tear easily after sitting for so long.
So I reballed it, and put it in a container to warm up for an hour.

After that, it was still a bit sticky when I started to stretch it (I think this flour doesn't absorb water well), so I used some bench flour.

It banged out to 14" pretty easily using a mix of pushing, knuckle stretch and gravity stretch.
The gravity stretch is cool, but this dough seemed pretty soft and fragile, so I went easy on that and the knuckle. I think I'll commit the Robbinsville video to memory and stick with that from now on, dough permitting.

Now, that I have a hotter bake method, a nice guide for the stretching technique, and the tomatoes and cheese I like, its time to get serious with the dough.
I'll try Peter's clone dough #6 with either KABF or All Trumps, what do you recommend?

For me to get Pillsbury's Best Baker's Patent or XXXX, I think I'd have to buy 50 lbs !



Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1045 on: June 18, 2014, 09:09:17 AM »

Thanks Norma, I do like making, and eating, this style of pie.

The dough was interesting..... at first when I took it out of the fridge, it was a little wet, and I was worried it would be clammy and tear easily after sitting for so long.
So I reballed it, and put it in a container to warm up for an hour.

After that, it was still a bit sticky when I started to stretch it (I think this flour doesn't absorb water well), so I used some bench flour.

It banged out to 14" pretty easily using a mix of pushing, knuckle stretch and gravity stretch.
The gravity stretch is cool, but this dough seemed pretty soft and fragile, so I went easy on that and the knuckle. I think I'll commit the Robbinsville video to memory and stick with that from now on, dough permitting.

Now, that I have a hotter bake method, a nice guide for the stretching technique, and the tomatoes and cheese I like, its time to get serious with the dough.
I'll try Peter's clone dough #6 with either KABF or All Trumps, what do you recommend?

For me to get Pillsbury's Best Baker's Patent or XXXX, I think I'd have to buy 50 lbs !

Charles,

Did you use an AP flour again?  If you did that might be why you dough was wet.  It is a wonder since you reballed and only let it sit for an hour, that you could even open the dough ball at all.  Usually it is not a good idea to do a reball and then use it in such a short amount of time.  In an hour the gluten strands do not have enough time to relax.  It a dough feels too wet after mixing you could do some stretch and folds and give rest periods in-between the stretch and folds.

What was your mix time for your dough in this attempt, and what mixing method did you use?  To get a dough something like De Lorenzo the dough probably has to be mixed right, or near mixed right. 

Maybe Peter could help you if you want to add VWG to his #6 formulation with KABF.  I don't know if you would mind VWG in a dough or final pizza.  Some members can not stand the taste of VWG, but I don't have any problems with the taste of the crust when VWG is added.  Maybe KABF might work okay alone.  I really don't know.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1046 on: June 18, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »
Charles,

Did you use an AP flour again?  If you did that might be why you dough was wet.  It is a wonder since you reballed and only let it sit for an hour, that you could even open the dough ball at all.  Usually it is not a good idea to do a reball and then use it in such a short amount of time.  In an hour the gluten strands do not have enough time to relax.  It a dough feels too wet after mixing you could do some stretch and folds and give rest periods in-between the stretch and folds.

What was your mix time for your dough in this attempt, and what mixing method did you use?  To get a dough something like De Lorenzo the dough probably has to be mixed right, or near mixed right. 

Maybe Peter could help you if you want to add VWG to his #6 formulation with KABF.  I don't know if you would mind VWG in a dough or final pizza.  Some members can not stand the taste of VWG, but I don't have any problems with the taste of the crust when VWG is added.  Maybe KABF might work okay alone.  I really don't know.

Norma

Yes, I used AP flour.
The mixing was done with the flat beater for a minute, then the spiral for 5-6 minutes.
No balling, just a bulk rise in the fridge.

I don't think I would like VWG, if it is something that might add an odd taste to the flour.

KA high gluten flour or All Trumps should be ok....its probably much easier to find KABF or KASL in my area as opposed to All Trumps.
Charles

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1047 on: June 18, 2014, 02:08:46 PM »
Yes, I used AP flour.
The mixing was done with the flat beater for a minute, then the spiral for 5-6 minutes.
No balling, just a bulk rise in the fridge.

I don't think I would like VWG, if it is something that might add an odd taste to the flour.

KA high gluten flour or All Trumps should be ok....its probably much easier to find KABF or KASL in my area as opposed to All Trumps.

Charles,

Sounds like you achieved a better mix this time.  Sorry, I thought you did balled right after the mix.  I think De Lorenzo might ball right after the mix. 

It is up to you if you want to try VWG. 

KA high gluten flour would be KASL (also usually only sold in 50 lb. bags, and it is not bleached or bromated.  I think All Trumps would be too strong of a high gluten flour to try for a De Lorenzo pizza.

Norma 

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1048 on: June 18, 2014, 02:55:29 PM »
Charles,

Sounds like you achieved a better mix this time.  Sorry, I thought you did balled right after the mix.  I think De Lorenzo might ball right after the mix. 

It is up to you if you want to try VWG. 

KA high gluten flour would be KASL (also usually only sold in 50 lb. bags, and it is not bleached or bromated.  I think All Trumps would be too strong of a high gluten flour to try for a De Lorenzo pizza.

Norma


Norma, I think I should ball after the mix for all my doughs, and I plan to from now on.

King Arthur has the Sir Lancelot for sale on their website for $7.50 for 3 lbs.....that's not very economical.  8)
I should be able to find KABF locally though, and it is also advertised as "high gluten" by the KA folks.
Probably a lot depends on how much I develop the gluten. A 6 minutes knead and a one day CF shouldn't overdevelop the gluten I hope.

Its interesting that All Trumps might have too much gluten for a DeLorenzo pie, maybe I'll skip it for now, unless I try to make a NY pie.



Charles

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1049 on: June 18, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »
uh oh, I might be a bit hamstrung by the choice of flour.

After doing a bit of searching, I'm slowly getting up to speed on the whole bromated debate.
I don't think I want to use bromated flour, and I had just found a good source of bromated high gluten flour to try, GM Full Strength flour.
Any products sold here that are bromated need a warning label, and I doubt that food manufacturers are doing that.
Can pizzerias in CA even use this stuff?

Anyway, without bromation, I may not be able to get the kind of crust that  DeLorenzo, or any other Trenton pie shop, might make. But I will still try.

Possibilities now look like Pendleton Power and Mondako 50:50.
Both Avellino and Arinell in the Bay Area use Pendelton, so it seems like a good option.
Costco sells it, but only in 50# bags.  :(
Charles