Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 60991 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1040 on: June 13, 2014, 06:53:58 PM »
Norma, I mean it looked like he used bench flour with good technique, even throwing some flour onto the skin when needed, not necessarily "a lot" of bench flour.

And yes, I definitely need more practice.

Charles,

Thanks for explaining.  I can always use practice too when I haven't tried the same style for awhile.   :-D

Good luck!

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1041 on: June 15, 2014, 06:46:44 PM »
If anyone is interested I made another attempt at a De Lorenzo's tomato pie in the Blackstone today.  I used Peter's #6 clone dough formulation at Reply 745 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg281529#msg281529  The other photos of the De Lorenzo's tomato pie start at Reply 640 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg319801#msg319801

The dough felt dry after it was mixed but softened when fermenting.  There were no rips or tears when draping the skin dough over the table and opening more.  The dough skin felt very good in my opinion.

Norma
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1042 on: June 17, 2014, 10:28:44 PM »
Just a quick update, with a similar clone to last time, Gold Medal AP, 57% hydration.
Next time I'll hopefully have some higher gluten flour to work with.

Waiting for my baking steel, this one had a long cold ferment at 9 days.
Maybe it was a little over fermented, but the crust tasted quite good.
The TF came in at 0.062

Also, this was my first try with the baking steel in the broiler underneath and the stone in the main oven.The RF thermometer read variable in spots, but the stone was about 600, and the steel a little lower. The bake was 7 minutes on the stone and 3 on the steel.

Tasty, crisp, could have used a little more oven rise maybe.
The basil... I can't resist, after watching video of old school pieman adding basil and oil after the bake. I'd like to find one of those oil cans with a spout.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 10:33:48 PM by woodmakesitgood »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1043 on: June 17, 2014, 11:08:55 PM »
Just a quick update, with a similar clone to last time, Gold Medal AP, 57% hydration.
Next time I'll hopefully have some higher gluten flour to work with.

Waiting for my baking steel, this one had a long cold ferment at 9 days.
Maybe it was a little over fermented, but the crust tasted quite good.
The TF came in at 0.062

Also, this was my first try with the baking steel in the broiler underneath and the stone in the main oven.The RF thermometer read variable in spots, but the stone was about 600, and the steel a little lower. The bake was 7 minutes on the stone and 3 on the steel.

Tasty, crisp, could have used a little more oven rise maybe.
The basil... I can't resist, after watching video of old school pieman adding basil and oil after the bake. I'd like to find one of those oil cans with a spout.

Charles,

Nice looking attempt on your tomato pie!   :) The basil added a nice touch.  How did your dough handle for this attempt?

Norma
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1044 on: June 17, 2014, 11:32:42 PM »
Charles,

Nice looking attempt on your tomato pie!   :) The basil added a nice touch.  How did your dough handle for this attempt?

Norma


Thanks Norma, I do like making, and eating, this style of pie.

The dough was interesting..... at first when I took it out of the fridge, it was a little wet, and I was worried it would be clammy and tear easily after sitting for so long.
So I reballed it, and put it in a container to warm up for an hour.

After that, it was still a bit sticky when I started to stretch it (I think this flour doesn't absorb water well), so I used some bench flour.

It banged out to 14" pretty easily using a mix of pushing, knuckle stretch and gravity stretch.
The gravity stretch is cool, but this dough seemed pretty soft and fragile, so I went easy on that and the knuckle. I think I'll commit the Robbinsville video to memory and stick with that from now on, dough permitting.

Now, that I have a hotter bake method, a nice guide for the stretching technique, and the tomatoes and cheese I like, its time to get serious with the dough.
I'll try Peter's clone dough #6 with either KABF or All Trumps, what do you recommend?

For me to get Pillsbury's Best Baker's Patent or XXXX, I think I'd have to buy 50 lbs !




Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1045 on: June 18, 2014, 09:09:17 AM »

Thanks Norma, I do like making, and eating, this style of pie.

The dough was interesting..... at first when I took it out of the fridge, it was a little wet, and I was worried it would be clammy and tear easily after sitting for so long.
So I reballed it, and put it in a container to warm up for an hour.

After that, it was still a bit sticky when I started to stretch it (I think this flour doesn't absorb water well), so I used some bench flour.

It banged out to 14" pretty easily using a mix of pushing, knuckle stretch and gravity stretch.
The gravity stretch is cool, but this dough seemed pretty soft and fragile, so I went easy on that and the knuckle. I think I'll commit the Robbinsville video to memory and stick with that from now on, dough permitting.

Now, that I have a hotter bake method, a nice guide for the stretching technique, and the tomatoes and cheese I like, its time to get serious with the dough.
I'll try Peter's clone dough #6 with either KABF or All Trumps, what do you recommend?

For me to get Pillsbury's Best Baker's Patent or XXXX, I think I'd have to buy 50 lbs !

Charles,

Did you use an AP flour again?  If you did that might be why you dough was wet.  It is a wonder since you reballed and only let it sit for an hour, that you could even open the dough ball at all.  Usually it is not a good idea to do a reball and then use it in such a short amount of time.  In an hour the gluten strands do not have enough time to relax.  It a dough feels too wet after mixing you could do some stretch and folds and give rest periods in-between the stretch and folds.

What was your mix time for your dough in this attempt, and what mixing method did you use?  To get a dough something like De Lorenzo the dough probably has to be mixed right, or near mixed right. 

Maybe Peter could help you if you want to add VWG to his #6 formulation with KABF.  I don't know if you would mind VWG in a dough or final pizza.  Some members can not stand the taste of VWG, but I don't have any problems with the taste of the crust when VWG is added.  Maybe KABF might work okay alone.  I really don't know.

Norma
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1046 on: June 18, 2014, 01:34:41 PM »
Charles,

Did you use an AP flour again?  If you did that might be why you dough was wet.  It is a wonder since you reballed and only let it sit for an hour, that you could even open the dough ball at all.  Usually it is not a good idea to do a reball and then use it in such a short amount of time.  In an hour the gluten strands do not have enough time to relax.  It a dough feels too wet after mixing you could do some stretch and folds and give rest periods in-between the stretch and folds.

What was your mix time for your dough in this attempt, and what mixing method did you use?  To get a dough something like De Lorenzo the dough probably has to be mixed right, or near mixed right. 

Maybe Peter could help you if you want to add VWG to his #6 formulation with KABF.  I don't know if you would mind VWG in a dough or final pizza.  Some members can not stand the taste of VWG, but I don't have any problems with the taste of the crust when VWG is added.  Maybe KABF might work okay alone.  I really don't know.

Norma

Yes, I used AP flour.
The mixing was done with the flat beater for a minute, then the spiral for 5-6 minutes.
No balling, just a bulk rise in the fridge.

I don't think I would like VWG, if it is something that might add an odd taste to the flour.

KA high gluten flour or All Trumps should be ok....its probably much easier to find KABF or KASL in my area as opposed to All Trumps.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1047 on: June 18, 2014, 02:08:46 PM »
Yes, I used AP flour.
The mixing was done with the flat beater for a minute, then the spiral for 5-6 minutes.
No balling, just a bulk rise in the fridge.

I don't think I would like VWG, if it is something that might add an odd taste to the flour.

KA high gluten flour or All Trumps should be ok....its probably much easier to find KABF or KASL in my area as opposed to All Trumps.

Charles,

Sounds like you achieved a better mix this time.  Sorry, I thought you did balled right after the mix.  I think De Lorenzo might ball right after the mix. 

It is up to you if you want to try VWG. 

KA high gluten flour would be KASL (also usually only sold in 50 lb. bags, and it is not bleached or bromated.  I think All Trumps would be too strong of a high gluten flour to try for a De Lorenzo pizza.

Norma 
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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1048 on: June 18, 2014, 02:55:29 PM »
Charles,

Sounds like you achieved a better mix this time.  Sorry, I thought you did balled right after the mix.  I think De Lorenzo might ball right after the mix. 

It is up to you if you want to try VWG. 

KA high gluten flour would be KASL (also usually only sold in 50 lb. bags, and it is not bleached or bromated.  I think All Trumps would be too strong of a high gluten flour to try for a De Lorenzo pizza.

Norma


Norma, I think I should ball after the mix for all my doughs, and I plan to from now on.

King Arthur has the Sir Lancelot for sale on their website for $7.50 for 3 lbs.....that's not very economical.  8)
I should be able to find KABF locally though, and it is also advertised as "high gluten" by the KA folks.
Probably a lot depends on how much I develop the gluten. A 6 minutes knead and a one day CF shouldn't overdevelop the gluten I hope.

Its interesting that All Trumps might have too much gluten for a DeLorenzo pie, maybe I'll skip it for now, unless I try to make a NY pie.




Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1049 on: June 18, 2014, 04:59:18 PM »
uh oh, I might be a bit hamstrung by the choice of flour.

After doing a bit of searching, I'm slowly getting up to speed on the whole bromated debate.
I don't think I want to use bromated flour, and I had just found a good source of bromated high gluten flour to try, GM Full Strength flour.
Any products sold here that are bromated need a warning label, and I doubt that food manufacturers are doing that.
Can pizzerias in CA even use this stuff?

Anyway, without bromation, I may not be able to get the kind of crust that  DeLorenzo, or any other Trenton pie shop, might make. But I will still try.

Possibilities now look like Pendleton Power and Mondako 50:50.
Both Avellino and Arinell in the Bay Area use Pendelton, so it seems like a good option.
Costco sells it, but only in 50# bags.  :(


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1050 on: June 18, 2014, 05:26:27 PM »

Norma, I think I should ball after the mix for all my doughs, and I plan to from now on.

King Arthur has the Sir Lancelot for sale on their website for $7.50 for 3 lbs.....that's not very economical.  8)
I should be able to find KABF locally though, and it is also advertised as "high gluten" by the KA folks.
Probably a lot depends on how much I develop the gluten. A 6 minutes knead and a one day CF shouldn't overdevelop the gluten I hope.

Its interesting that All Trumps might have too much gluten for a DeLorenzo pie, maybe I'll skip it for now, unless I try to make a NY pie.

Charles,

I think it would be a good idea to ball right after the mix for right now.  When you have more experience making dough and pizzas then you could try some experiments on reballing.  There are members that do make fine pizza with a reball but it takes a little extra work..

Flours from the King Arthur website are not cheap.  A 6 minute knead and a one day cold ferment should not over develop the gluten if you use KABF.  After you mix more doughs you will be able to tell when the doughs are mixed enough.

I used the All Trumps flour for awhile and did like it for NY style pizzas.  The only problem with using All Trumps is if the mixing is too long it can make a chewy crust in the baked pizza. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1051 on: June 18, 2014, 05:36:32 PM »
uh oh, I might be a bit hamstrung by the choice of flour.

After doing a bit of searching, I'm slowly getting up to speed on the whole bromated debate.
I don't think I want to use bromated flour, and I had just found a good source of bromated high gluten flour to try, GM Full Strength flour.
Any products sold here that are bromated need a warning label, and I doubt that food manufacturers are doing that.
Can pizzerias in CA even use this stuff?

Anyway, without bromation, I may not be able to get the kind of crust that  DeLorenzo, or any other Trenton pie shop, might make. But I will still try.

Possibilities now look like Pendleton Power and Mondako 50:50.
Both Avellino and Arinell in the Bay Area use Pendelton, so it seems like a good option.
Costco sells it, but only in 50# bags.  :(

Charles,

If you found GM Full Strength that is bleached and bromated that might be a good choice for a De Lorenzo's clone.  There is a GM Full Strength that is not bromated.  The protein for GM Full Strength bleached and bromated is lower than KASL and All Trumps.  I think the pizzeria or bakeries that use bromated flours in CA need to label the product, or state they use bromated flour.   

Your choice of Pendleton Power flour and Mondako 50/50 sounds good too.  I did use both of those flours before but not in this thread.  I am not that good at reciting protein levels for different flours.  If I was at knowing protein levels of flours, without searching, I could help you more on what flour options you might try.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1052 on: June 18, 2014, 06:18:10 PM »
Any products sold here that are bromated need a warning label, and I doubt that food manufacturers are doing that.

Maybe you could petition the FDA to require warning labels.

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1053 on: June 18, 2014, 06:46:31 PM »
Maybe you could petition the FDA to require warning labels.


 ::)

Offline petef

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1054 on: June 24, 2014, 03:39:49 AM »
If anyone is interested I made another attempt at a De Lorenzo's tomato pie in the Blackstone today.  I used Peter's #6 clone dough formulation...

Norma, your De Lorenzo's tomato pie clone looks fantastic!
I look at those pics and I wish I could have a bite. :)

Great job!

---pete---

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1055 on: June 24, 2014, 06:25:14 AM »
Norma, your De Lorenzo's tomato pie clone looks fantastic!
I look at those pics and I wish I could have a bite. :)

Great job!

---pete---

Pete,

Thanks!  I wish you could have had some slices to taste.   

Norma
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Offline nick57

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1056 on: June 25, 2014, 02:13:18 PM »
Norma, I've enjoyed reading your road map to making tomato pies. I've made a couple and I have question about the tomato sauce. Do you use plain sauce? When I have made mine, the sauce seems to go everywhere on the pie after cooking, instead of staying pretty much in the same area as yours appear. Should I use something  more like crushed tomatoes?

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1057 on: June 25, 2014, 02:28:30 PM »
Not Norma (obviously) but you do need the weight of the tomatoes to make them stay "still" on top of the cheese. Delorenzo's uses crushed tomatoes (with some added thick puree) and, for the plain tomato pies, they often throw some cheese on top of the tomatoes too..while the cooking is underway.

I buy tomatoes and chop them coarsely in the food processor, as the hand-crushing....that the great Delorenzos used to do....well..is messy.
Stuart

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1058 on: June 25, 2014, 04:54:05 PM »
I went for another attempt using my newly acquired Pendleton flour.....Costco really came through.
This batch was pure Power Flour.  ;D

Next time I will mix it with some of the slightly lower gluten Mondako flour.
This flour is dramatically better for pizza than the AP flour I was using. The crust was probably the best I've ever made, very much like a NY style pie. I made it in the tomato pie style with the tomatoes on top though.

The dough was a Bruno DiFabio clone, taken from his video and scaled down.
I wanted to try this since the dough in the video looked very nice, it is a one day cold ferment, and it has a bit of egg (maybe to up the crisp factor?), and he's a pizza champion. LOL

The skin took a bit of work to get stretched (probably my lack of experience),
but once I got it going it was very easy to work with, very extensible with no worries about tears.
It could easily have been tossed and spun, but I knuckle stretched it to 14".

I wish I knew from experience how crispy the DeLorenzo's crust is......mine was airy and crispy near the edge (no bones here), and more chewy towards the fold-able middle.
The entire bottom was a bit crispy but no more than a NY pie.

Would a DeLorenzo slice be fold-able, does the middle part of the crust have any chew?





Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1059 on: June 25, 2014, 07:21:00 PM »
Norma, I've enjoyed reading your road map to making tomato pies. I've made a couple and I have question about the tomato sauce. Do you use plain sauce? When I have made mine, the sauce seems to go everywhere on the pie after cooking, instead of staying pretty much in the same area as yours appear. Should I use something  more like crushed tomatoes?


Nick,

What type of tomato pie do you want to make?  Would it be a De Lorenzo's style pizza or a boardwalk style pizza?

For the boardwalk style of pizza, this is the sauce I use for market at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31972.msg317607#msg317607  You will I did say in that post that those are approximate amounts. 

A little thicker sauce will also be good if you want to apply a spiral pattern.  You can see later in the same thread I made another attempt on another tomato sauce product.

For a De Lorenzo's sauce the combination would be Red Pack and 6-in-1s.

Norma
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