Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 65630 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #200 on: August 16, 2013, 06:39:54 PM »
Norma,

As best I can tell from the comments at the Trenton thread, the dough is cold fermented for at least one day and possibly more. I am assuming that you plan to make the pizza at market where you can use your deck oven, possibly in the two-step process that I earlier described. If that is correct, I would plan to come up with a formulation with an amount of yeast (IDY) for a one-day cold fermentation.

The issue of the type of flour used at De Lorenzo's has been discussed on several occasions at the Trenton thread. The flour that has been mentioned most is all-purpose flour, including the Pillsbury brand. At least one member said that the flour was not a high-gluten flour, but rather "regular flour". The most recent candidate, from Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142, is the "PILLSBURY BEST BAKERS PATENT HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR". That flour is a foodservice product but is not identified by General Mills, who sells that flour at the foodservice level, as a high-gluten flour even though the flour, at 12.9% protein, can be called a "high-gluten" flour since there is no industry standard as to what constitutes a high-gluten flour. Any "regular' or "all-purpose" Pillsbury flour would be sold at retail in small bags, not foodserevice size bags (e.g., 50-lb bags), through the J.M Smucker Company. None of the De Lorenzo pizzerias would be using small bags of retail all-purpose Pillsbury flour.

The General Mills foodservice Pillsbury flour--the only Pillsbury flour that I could find at the GM website--has the specs as shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pillsburys-best-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133294000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type. For your purposes, unless I can find another Pillsbury flour that looks to be more appropriate, I plan to use the foodservice Pillsbury flour for the clone De Lorenzo dough formulation but suggest an alternative using a blend of other flours, possibly including the Occident flour. By any chance, do you have any high-gluten flour on hand?

For your information, I plan to modify the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 for your use. You might recall that you used a version of that dough formulation at the Boardwalk thread. Hopefully, we will know what size pizzas Robbinsville makes before I come up with the new De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

Yes I do plan on making the pizza at market in my deck oven where I could use the two-step practice that you mentioned earlier.

I did look on the Trenton thread and saw what kinds of flour might be used for a De Lorenzo's dough.  I wonder if the General Mills foodservice Pillsbury's Best Flour is anything like the XXXX Patent flour Joe Kelley talked to me about. http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category

I do have All Trumps bromated flour at home too. 

Thanks for telling me you plan to modify the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 for my use.  I do recall that I used a version of that dough formulation at the Boardwalk thread.  I did try to call De Lorenzo's again just a few minutes ago and the answering machine said, Hello, we are not available now”., the same message that I got last evening.  I left a call back number again.  I can call Trenton Bill and see if he recalls what sizes the De Lorenzo's pizzas are.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #201 on: August 16, 2013, 07:04:44 PM »
Norma,

I am aware of the Pillsbury 4X flours, having spoken before with a Pillsbury sales rep about the flours (one enriched and one unenriched). At 12.6% protein, it is possible to refer to them as high-gluten flours, as does King Arthur with its 12.7% KABF, but I ruled the Pillsbury 4X flours out of contention primarily because they do not include the words "Pillsbury Best" in their names. I perhaps should have been clearer when I said that there was only one Pillsbury flour at the GM website.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #202 on: August 16, 2013, 07:26:55 PM »
Norma,

After my last post I went back to the General Mills flour website where it dawned on me that they sell a flour called Best Bakers Patent Flour, with the specs shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category. It is possible that they omitted the word Pillsbury before the phrase Best Bakers Patent Flour. Even if that is the case, that flour is very similar in its specs to the Pillsbury Best flour I previously mentioned. The main differences are in the enrichment package and some mineral content.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #203 on: August 16, 2013, 07:40:40 PM »
Norma,

After my last post I went back to the General Mills flour website where it dawned on me that they sell a flour called Best Bakers Patent Flour, with the specs shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category. It is possible that they omitted the word Pillsbury before the phrase Best Bakers Patent Flour. Even if that is the case, that flour is very similar in its specs to the Pillsbury Best flour I previously mentioned. The main differences are in the enrichment package and some mineral content.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for finding the Best Bakers Patent flour at GM's professional baking solutions.  Do you want me ask Joey Kelley if it is a Pillsbury product/or anything else about that flour?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #204 on: August 16, 2013, 07:52:24 PM »
Thanks for finding the Best Bakers Patent flour at GM's professional baking solutions.  Do you want me ask Joey Kelley if it is a Pillsbury product/or anything else about that flour?
Norma,

For our purposes it shouldn't be necessary but it might help to ask Joey for future reference.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #205 on: August 16, 2013, 09:32:07 PM »
Norma,

For our purposes it shouldn't be necessary but it might help to ask Joey for future reference.

Peter

Peter,

Okay, I will ask Joe for any future references. 

I did call Trenton Bill and he isn't sure of the sizes of De Lorenzo's pizzas either.  He said he thought they might be 13" and 16" pizza, but he really didn't know.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #206 on: August 16, 2013, 09:41:05 PM »
Peter,

This blogger says De Lorenzo's pizza comes in a 14” size.  http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #207 on: August 16, 2013, 10:08:49 PM »
This blogger says De Lorenzo's pizza comes in a 14” size.  http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html
Norma,

That information is for the old Hamilton location, not the old Hudson location. I would feel most comfortable if someone actually measured pizza sizes.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #208 on: August 16, 2013, 10:39:01 PM »
Norma,

That information is for the old Hamilton location, not the old Hudson location. I would feel most comfortable if someone actually measured pizza sizes.

Peter

Peter,

I am still getting the De Lorenzo's locations mixed-up.  I will write a message to De Lorenzo's on facebook and see if they answer me what size pizzas the Hudson location had.  Maybe another member might pop-up with information on the sizes.

Norma
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Offline BenLee

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #209 on: August 17, 2013, 12:54:14 PM »
These are the the facebook photos at De Lorenzo's Pizza at https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos/photos_stream  The other De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook photos are at  https://www.facebook.com/DeLorenzosTomatoPies/photos_stream 

If the STAR-LEDGER newspaper article is looked at it says the different De Lorenzo's locations pizzas really were not the same.

A few photos copied from the De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook page, including what the pizza dough looks like, and photos of what De Lorenzo's coal oven looked like before the fire.

I don't know how the De Lorenzo's pizza dough can be cloned/or tried to be cloned, if people might think the pizzas tasted differently at the different De Lorenzo's locations.  I read the same thing on Slice and elsewhere on the web. 

Norma

Delorenzo's Tomato Pies was started by "Chick" Delorenzo while Delorenzo's Pizza was started by Chick's brother.  They both worked at Papa's Tomato Pies when they were young.  The pies are different.  The dough is different.  I'd say Delorenzo's Pizza is closer to pizza than tomato pie, even though both put the tomatoes on top.  Delorenzo's Tomato Pies have chunks of tomatoes within the sauce while Delorenzo's Pizza is kinda sauce only.

I'd say the dough is an average hydration dough because it forms a cracker type crust out of the oven.  I'm guessing, average hydration and a bake at 550.


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #210 on: August 17, 2013, 05:38:09 PM »
Peter,

I sent a message to Rick DeLorenzo on facebook. I saw in his photos he worked at DeLorenzo's and lived in Trenton, NJ and also saw him working at DeLorenzo's on some of his facebook photos.

This is what I said:

Hi Rick, You don't know me, but I wondered if you could answer a question for me. Did you work at De Lorenzo's on Hudson St?  I wondered what size pizzas they sold at that location. I tried to call the new De Lorenzo's and they don't answer the phone. My friend from Trenton, NJ doesn't even recall right what size the pizzas were on Hudson St. and he did go there many times. Thanks, and sorry I bothered you.

This is what Rick replied to me.

Rick DeLorenzo
Hi , I never worked on Hudson St but I have to assume they had the same sizes as we do 14"AND 16". NO BOTHER

Is that good enough information?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #211 on: August 17, 2013, 06:18:02 PM »
I sent a message to Rick DeLorenzo on facebook. I saw in his photos he worked at DeLorenzo's and lived in Trenton, NJ and also saw him working at DeLorenzo's on some of his facebook photos.

This is what I said:

Hi Rick, You don't know me, but I wondered if you could answer a question for me. Did you work at De Lorenzo's on Hudson St?  I wondered what size pizzas they sold at that location. I tried to call the new De Lorenzo's and they don't answer the phone. My friend from Trenton, NJ doesn't even recall right what size the pizzas were on Hudson St. and he did go there many times. Thanks, and sorry I bothered you.

This is what Rick replied to me.

Rick DeLorenzo
Hi , I never worked on Hudson St but I have to assume they had the same sizes as we do 14"AND 16". NO BOTHER

Is that good enough information?
Norma,

If that is the best we can get, we will have to live with it. I had read somewhere that at the Hudson De Lorenzo location the same size dough balls were used for the two pizza sizes. If the sizes are 14" and 16", the crusts characteristics will be different as a result but the amount of dough will have to be sufficient so that the thinner crust is not a cracker crust. I am thinking of a dough ball that weighs about 10 ounces to be able to make both sizes without the thinner crust being a cracker.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #212 on: August 17, 2013, 07:10:15 PM »
Norma,

If that is the best we can get, we will have to live with it. I had read somewhere that at the Hudson De Lorenzo location the same size dough balls were used for the two pizza sizes. If the sizes are 14" and 16", the crusts characteristics will be different as a result but the amount of dough will have to be sufficient so that the thinner crust is not a cracker crust. I am thinking of a dough ball that weighs about 10 ounces to be able to make both sizes without the thinner crust being a cracker.

Peter

Peter,

Do you want me to send Rick a message on facebook and ask him if the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's location and other De Lorenzo's locations did use, or does still use the same size dough balls for the two different sizes of pizzas?

I can understand that if the same size dough ball is used there would be different crust characteristics. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #213 on: August 17, 2013, 07:13:31 PM »
Do you want me to send Rick a message on facebook and ask him if the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's location and other De Lorenzo's locations did use, or does still use the same size dough balls for two different sizes of pizzas?
Norma,

Yes, that would help.

For your addtional information, according to this article, http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf, the Robbinsville location uses a 550 degrees F oven temperature and it take 10 minutes to bake the pizza.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #214 on: August 17, 2013, 07:25:22 PM »
Norma,

Yes, that would help.

For your addtional information, according to this article, http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf, the Robbinsville location uses a 550 degrees F oven temperature and it take 10 minutes to bake the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Okay I will ask Rick.  There is no hurt in asking, even if I don't find out the answer.

I think that is a high temperature to bake for 10 minutes, but guess we will find out what happens.  Thanks for the link and the additional information.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #215 on: August 18, 2013, 07:17:53 AM »
I think that is a high temperature to bake for 10 minutes, but guess we will find out what happens.  Thanks for the link and the additional information.
Norma,

The bake time mentioned in the article I cited squares with what member bfx9 reported in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 . Note that the pizza that bfx9 reported on went from the top oven to the lower oven.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #216 on: August 18, 2013, 08:22:42 AM »
Norma,

The bake time mentioned in the article I cited squares with what member bfx9 reported in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 . Note that the pizza that bfx9 reported on went from the top oven to the lower oven.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for link to the post from bfx9.  I see that squares with what you posted about the bake time and using the top oven first and then transferring the pizza to the lower oven.  I know my deck oven won't bake exactly like De Lorenzo's, but do know that pizzas bake differently on my top deck.

bfx9's post at Reply 174 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 is also interesting in my opinion.  He posted that De Lorenzo's pizza dough was sold at Risoldi's market.  I guess I am a little to late for that.  :-D I also wonder what kind of machine was used to flatten the dough.   

BTW, Rick didn't answer me back on facebook yet, but DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies did answer me back late last evening in a message.

This is what I asked on Friday and what DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies answered back.
Me:
Hello, I have tried to call your pizzeria two times and left two messages, but no one answers the phone and no one answers me. I wanted to ask one question if you have time to answer it. The question is what sizes of pizzas did De Lorenzo's have at the old Hudson St. location? I was just curious and had a running bet with someone about the sizes.
 
DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies:
Hi Norma, sorry about not getting thru on the phone. The pies on hudson st. were small and large. Hope u win the bet.

I then said and asked late last evening.

Hello DeLorenzo's. I just wondered what sizes the two pizzas were. My friend said he thought they might have been 13" and 16", but I said I haven't heard of too many 13" pizzas and maybe the small pizzas were 14" and 16”. I also wanted to ask you one other question. I tried to come to DeLorenzo's when I was at my friends place in Hamilton about 2 months ago. He didn't know the one DeLorenzo's was closed down and we tried to go there. We then went to your new location, but that wasn't opened until 5:00 PM. We then went to where a DeLorenzo's was supposed to be open at the one supermarket, but another pizzeria has taken over. To get to the point I didn't get to try any of DelLorenzo's pizzas in that visit and never did. My friend who is in his 70's has lived in Hamilton most of his life and he has tried all of the DeLorenzo's pizzas. He told me one other thing that made me think a little and that is my next question. He told me that some of the DeLorenzo's places use the same size dough balls for both sizes of pizzas. Is that true? Sorry to bother you again, but I hope to get to your new location when I visit my friend later in the fall.
Thanks!

I will wait and see if I get another message from DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies.

Trenton Bill told me to come to Trenton this coming weekend to see if we can find out more about De Lorenzo's pizzas, but I told Bill I have to start getting stuff ready for an event I have to do outside at market. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #217 on: August 18, 2013, 08:56:52 AM »
Norma,

The Risoldi's matter is moot at this point since, as member BenLee recently told us at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214:

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

I think that you are getting the runaround from the folks at Robbinsville. The response you got reminds me of a time when I called a pizzeria whose pizza I was trying to recreate and where the two pizza sizes were said to be 'small' and 'large'. I asked the gal who answered the phone what the difference was in the two sizes. She answered "one is bigger than the other". Doh.

Maybe we should ask the gal who penned the negative article on Papa John's recently to write another article, this time on De Lorenzo Pies and how they won't tell anyone the sizes, in inches, of its pizzas and they won't even answer the phones and instead give a silly response that insults peoples' intelligence. People have the right to know how much pizza they are getting without having to go to De Lorenzo's with a ruler or tape measure. It is amazing to me that for an organization that has been around since 1947 no one seems to have noted anywhere in the public media what the two sizes of the pizzas are in inches. I searched for this one point and came up empty.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #218 on: August 18, 2013, 11:01:00 AM »
Norma,

The Risoldi's matter is moot at this point since, as member BenLee recently told us at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214:

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

I think that you are getting the runaround from the folks at Robbinsville. The response you got reminds me of a time when I called a pizzeria whose pizza I was trying to recreate and where the two pizza sizes were said to be 'small' and 'large'. I asked the gal who answered the phone what the difference was in the two sizes. She answered "one is bigger than the other". Doh.

Maybe we should ask the gal who penned the negative article on Papa John's recently to write another article, this time on De Lorenzo Pies and how they won't tell anyone the sizes, in inches, of its pizzas and they won't even answer the phones and instead give a silly response that insults peoples' intelligence. People have the right to know how much pizza they are getting without having to go to De Lorenzo's with a ruler or tape measure. It is amazing to me that for an organization that has been around since 1947 no one seems to have noted anywhere in the public media what the two sizes of the pizzas are in inches. I searched for this one point and came up empty.

Peter

Peter,

Maybe, this is part of the rest of the story.  :-\ What do you think?

Rick DeLorenzo answered me in a message again on facebook. 

This is what I said and what Rick said.

Me:

Rick, Sorry to bother you again, but I had a question that my friend from Trenton asked me about. He said the same size dough balls are used for both sizes of pizzas, even though he could not recall what sizes the pizza were at Hudson St. I read on the web that there were differences in some of the crusts in De Lorenzo's pizzas. Was that from the same size dough ball being used for the two sizes of pizzas?

Rick replied:

No ! Two pizza sizes, two dough ball sizes. I own and run the DeLorenzo's Pizza on Sloan Ave. that opened on May 6th of this year. We were formerly located at 1007 Hamilton Ave. in Trenton for over 50 years. I also had the location inside of Risoldi's Market which i closed in February of this year. My cousin owns DeLorenzo's Tomato Pie in Robbinsville. They were formerly located on Hudson St. in Trenton. Check out our facebook page ,DeLorenzos Pizza and our website delospizza.com  for more info.

Do you have any other questions you want me to ask Rick that aren't too suspicious?

Norma
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 11:02:36 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #219 on: August 18, 2013, 11:26:51 AM »
Norma,

I have read reports, even an occasional one quoting Rick De Lorenzo, that both sides of the De Lorenzo family were on good terms. However, they were still competitors and often the competition between family members can be more fierce that between strangers. Because I am the trust and verify sort of person, I would prefer to get the information we are looking for from the horse's mouth--someone in the know and affiliated with Robbinsville or the former De Lorenzo Pies. I will mention, however, that the idea of a one-size-fits-all dough ball came from a forum member at the Trenton thread, not from some published source, such as an article, review, etc.

At this point, I am inclined to think along the lines of two dough balls weights. Or maybe I can also come up with a one-size-fits-all dough ball. These problems are usually solved by making different weights of dough balls and different size pizzas until the best combination is identified. However, this can take some time to do and, even then, since you have never had a De Lorenzo pie, you will need someone else who is familiar with the De Lorenzo pies test the final clone dough formulation to verify that you have succeeded with the clone. It may even well turn out in your case that the De Lorenzo clone "Trenton" pie is not to your liking and is unlikely to be remedied simply by knowing the two pizza sizes used at Robbinsviille/Hudson.

Peter