Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 68529 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #400 on: August 28, 2013, 07:48:52 PM »
Peter,

I did the bake hydration test and with 10 grams of dough from the De Lorenzo's/Sloan large dough ball.  I first heated my toaster oven up to 500 degrees F and used my IR gun to measure the temperature.  The pressed out piece of dough was put into a metal lid that I usually use for making gravy, so it was a larger lid than I had used before.  The dough ballooned very fast (but did balloon around the edges more than the center did) and I did then cut it then with an Exacto knife.  I then put the oven temperature down to 212 degrees F and measured with my IR gun again.  It sure didn't take as long for this dough piece to completely dry out.  The weight of the dough piece for the hydration bake test was 6.30 grams after the bakes.  The dough piece that had hardened considerably during the bakes tasted just like a cracker to me and was very crispy.

Since I still have the dough ball defrosted do you want me to try and do a gluten mass test and maybe try to do the oil test you did before?  I never tried the oil test like you did.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #401 on: August 28, 2013, 07:55:59 PM »
Norma,

It won't hurt to do a gluten mass test. Maybe the results can be added to the existing gluten mass list.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #402 on: August 28, 2013, 08:13:05 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to answer your question about the oil test. I don't see any need for that test.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #403 on: August 28, 2013, 10:10:45 PM »
I thought it was interesting how Papa's Tomato Pies line their ovens with bricks.  I saw the photos of the bricks that are going in Papa's Tomato Pies on facebook today.   The bricks sure look thick to me. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.563059783742355.1073741827.185566028158401&type=1 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #404 on: August 28, 2013, 10:44:16 PM »
I don't know what I might have done wrong in the wet gluten mass test or how the wet gluten mass was baked, but this is what I did.  I weighed out 5 oz. of the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough and washed it.  It took a long time to wash all of the other ingredients out and the cornmeal or semolina could be felt while washing it.  I am not sure I got all of the cornmeal or semolina out even after all of the washing, squishing and squeezing.  The gluten mass was put into a damp paper towel for 7 mintues then weighed.  It weighed 1.16 grams.  It was then formed into a dough ball and baked at on my aluminum pan that is in my toaster oven.  It was baked at 425 degrees F for an hour.  I did use my IR gun again to take the temperature.  The wet gluten mass dough ball didn't puff up much at all.  It did have a gluten network after being baked though.  The wet gluten mass dough ball only weighed 0.39 grams.  There is something wrong with that number.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #405 on: August 29, 2013, 07:21:09 AM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the hydration bake and gluten mass tests. However, at first blush, the results do not appear to help us as far as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is concerned. But, to be sure, I will have to study the results further and do a few calculations.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #406 on: August 29, 2013, 08:14:51 AM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the hydration bake and gluten mass tests. However, at first blush, the results do not appear to help us as far as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is concerned. But, to be sure, I will have to study the results further and do a few calculations.

Peter

Peter,

Do you have any idea of where I might have gone wrong with my tests?  Maybe I was rusty in recalling what I did before.   :-\

BTW, I didn't conduct a real oil test, but I did heat the water first to 100 degrees F and used that water in my bigger glass mixing bowl to try and wash out all of the starches, other ingredients and what might be oil.  I wasn't sure I had washed out all of the ingredients because I still felt what might have been cornmeal or semolina, so that is when I washed the gluten mass under cold water more.   I did put the contents of what was in my bigger mixing bowl and froze it last evening.  This morning this is what the drinking glass photos look like.  To my eye it doesn't appear to be much or any oil on the top of the frozen mixture.  I will wait until the contents of the frozen mixture defrosts though to see if there is any oily substance on the top.  I did not let the starches, or other ingredients settle before freezing because it was getting to late to do that.

If you want me to conduct the tests again this weekend if you think I made some errors I can do those tests again.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #407 on: August 29, 2013, 08:52:26 AM »
A few boardwalk style of pizzas photos from Tuesday.  Usually the photos of pizzas taken from a little farther away in my heated display case don't show the true colors of the crust and really how the cheese looks and these photos also show that.  I wish I had a better camera to really be able to take pictures under artificial lighting, but at least I do have a camera.  My bottom crust mostly always appear darker than what they look like in person, but sometimes the photos do show the true colors.  I guess I am not that good with my camera either.

I did give garlic knot samples out to customers that purchased a slice or whole pizza this past Tuesday.  The garlic knots had the Whirl, margarine and garlic salt, or powder that I was working on.  I had to add garlic powder this week because I only took the Whirl and margarine along to market.  The garlic powder seemed to work well too.  The new garlic sauce is very tasty and when the garlic knots are soaked in the garlic sauce and put into a Styrofoam container they stay soft for a long while.  I am not sure if I am going to be offering the garlic knots with the garlic sauce though.  I did get good compliments on the garlic knots though on Tuesday.  I did sprinkle Pecorino Romano cheese over the garlic knots after the garlic sauce and in my opinion that made them taste better.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:00:44 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #408 on: August 29, 2013, 09:54:02 AM »
Your garlic knots sound delicious Norma...keep up the great promo's!  :chef:
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #409 on: August 29, 2013, 10:18:34 AM »
Your garlic knots sound delicious Norma...keep up the great promo's!  :chef:

Thanks Bob!  Steve and I think the garlic knots taste a lot better since I use the garlic sauce I was learning to make.  The extra cheese sprinkled on doesn't hurt either. 

I got my email back from market management on Tuesday and there are lot of things I am not allowed to do that I asked about.  I am not allowed to put it a pizza flutter flag, don't think I am allowed to put my new posters on the bulletin boards, not allowed to put a A-frame sign outside in the main midway because they say they did put they one way up there (even though the man that did sell pizza outside said he doesn't mind if I put an A-frame sign there), but that sign market put is so little no one is ever going to look at it and a lot of other stuff.  I can't seem to talk to market management in person at all, but will work on trying to do that.  They want me to rent an outside stand and just give coupons out for money off of my pizzas.  I sure don't know how I would pay an extra person to do that and also have more money off of my pizzas.  I think this week I am going to post on my facebook page a deal if someone mentions it to me that they saw it on facebook.  I know not many customers look at my facebook page though.  Some days I feel like I am getting nowhere with market management.  They also want me to ask my customers to send in requests to do a DDD show at my place.  I would be way to embarrassed to ask customers to do that.  How I feel about that is I would be making customers go to great lengths on helping me and I don't want to impose on them at all.  I am not posting about all this stuff on my help thread because if they read it they might be more rough on me.  I have to compose a long email to them again. They are saying if I have good pizza people will come, but that is far from the truth in my opinion.  I am not saying I make the best pizza ever, but I don't have a lot of choices in trying to get foot traffic to my area.  The one new stand I had wanted opened up again after two vendors now left already.  I know I have no chance in getting that stand though.  I guess they think I am too pushy even though all I do is state my opinions. 

Norma 
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #410 on: August 29, 2013, 10:50:28 AM »
Do you have any idea of where I might have gone wrong with my tests?  Maybe I was rusty in recalling what I did before.   :-\
Norma,

It is always difficult to conduct experiments in a home setting because of the crude, nonscientific nature of our equipment and processes. I am still analyzing the results you got but if the hydration test were to be repeated, I think I would try for a longer bake time. My recollection is that the materials that I read on the hydration bake test called for a bake time that took a good part of a day. I found that I didn't need anywhere that amount of time. My practice was to bake the test sample until its weight stabilized and didn't change anymore. My method is described at Reply 967 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947.

As for your gluten mass test, it is possible that your sample may have included some cornmeal or semolina. Semolina would have some wheat-based gluten but the cornmeal would not. So the sample size might not have been composed of only wheat flour as the flour component. A surer gluten mass test would be to make a dough ball and wash it to retrieve the gluten. My recollection is that we used a 9-ounce dough ball for such a test. As I mentioned before, we don't really need a gluten mass test for the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour. You might do it to add the data for that flour to our list, but we don't need it to help come up with a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.

I found that the oil test was a difficult one to conduct, especially if there was not much oil in the dough. That is why I didn't encourage you to run such a test.

Peter

« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 11:01:50 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #411 on: August 29, 2013, 11:16:23 AM »

Norma,

It is always difficult to conduct experiments in a home setting because of the crude, nonscientific nature of our equipment and processes. I am still analyzing the results you got but if the hydration test were to be repeated, I think I would try for a longer bake time. My recollection is that the materials that I read on the hydration bake test called for a bake time that took a good part of a day. I found that I didn't need anywhere that amount of time. My practice was to bake the test sample until its weight stabilized and didn't change anymore. My method is described at Reply 967 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947.

Peter

Peter,

I will run the hydration test again this weekend following the directions you gave your link.  Thanks for that link!

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #412 on: August 29, 2013, 11:24:15 AM »
Norma,

To update you on the gluten mass test you conducted, I normalized the 1.16 ounces of gluten from the 5-ounce sample you used to the 9-ounce dough ball size that we have typically used to run gluten mass tests on different flours. The normalized value I calculated is 2.088 ounces. If you look at the master gluten mass list as given at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328, you will see that the 2.088 number places the flour used to make the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough near the bottom of the list. If De Lorenzo/Sloan is using the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour, I would expect the actual wet gluten mass value to be higher up in the master gluten mass list.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #413 on: August 29, 2013, 11:58:00 AM »
Norma,

To update you on the gluten mass test you conducted, I normalized the 1.16 ounces of gluten from the 5-ounce sample you used to the 9-ounce dough ball size that we have typically used to run gluten mass tests on different flours. The normalized value I calculated is 2.088 ounces. If you look at the master gluten mass list as given at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328, you will see that the 2.088 number places the flour used to make the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough near the bottom of the list. If De Lorenzo/Sloan is using the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour, I would expect the actual wet gluten mass value to be higher up in the master gluten mass list.

Peter

Peter,

I must have done something wrong in that test, because that number is too low, which I thought.  Maybe I was trying to multi-task too many things at once last evening.

I know this is not going to matter, but I don't see any oil, unless it was such a small amount, in the partial oil test I did for De Lorenzo's/Sloan gluten mass/oil partial test.  The frozen mass is liquid now.  I know you posted that it might be hard to detect a small amount of oil.  I was just curious if I could see any oil on the top.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #414 on: August 29, 2013, 12:19:14 PM »
Norma,

For your information, this morning I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to run several scenarios for a dough formulation based on the hydration test you conducted. Your test indicated that the water content of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, including the moisture in the flour (rated at 14%) and the water used to make the dough, was 37%. The iterations I ran using the expanded dough calculating tool suggested that the hydration of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would be in the 40+% range. It could be higher if a lot of oil were used, but at this point it sounds like they may be using little or no oil to make their dough. My iterations also assumed typical values for yeast and salt, but their quantities, when used in their normal ranges in pizza dough, have little effect on the hydration numbers.

It is important to keep in mind that hydration bake test results alone do not offer much help. Usually, you need to know what ingredients are used to make the dough. For example, you might recall that when we worked on reverse engineering and cloning the Mellow Mushroom dough, we knew all of the ingredients up front. With the hydration bake tests results in hand for the sample of the MM dough you tested, that made it much easier to come up with a formulation that had the water content that was the same as your results indicated.

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40+% range. If that number is correct, then I would have to completely rethink what they might be doing, possibly including bake temperatures and times, about which I know very little. I have avoided thinking about what they may be doing since our focus has been on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing and trying to reverse engineer and clone their dough. There hasn't been a big demand to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, at least not on this forum, and apparently for good reason as best I can tell.

I look forward to the results of your repeat hydration bake test. Even then, without knowing precisely what ingredients De Lorenzo/Sloan is using to make its dough, the answers may not help us a great deal with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formlation. The best I can hope for is to confirm what I think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 12:38:59 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #415 on: August 29, 2013, 01:36:34 PM »
Norma,

For your information, this morning I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to run several scenarios for a dough formulation based on the hydration test you conducted. Your test indicated that the water content of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, including the moisture in the flour (rated at 14%) and the water used to make the dough, was 37%. The iterations I ran using the expanded dough calculating tool suggested that the hydration of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would be in the 40+% range. It could be higher if a lot of oil were used, but at this point it sounds like they may be using little or no oil to make their dough. My iterations also assumed typical values for yeast and salt, but their quantities, when used in their normal ranges in pizza dough, have little effect on the hydration numbers.

It is important to keep in mind that hydration bake test results alone do not offer much help. Usually, you need to know what ingredients are used to make the dough. For example, you might recall that when we worked on reverse engineering and cloning the Mellow Mushroom dough, we knew all of the ingredients up front. With the hydration bake tests results in hand for the sample of the MM dough you tested, that made it much easier to come up with a formulation that had the water content that was the same as your results indicated.

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40+% range. If that number is correct, then I would have to completely rethink what they might be doing, possibly including bake temperatures and times, about which I know very little. I have avoided thinking about what they may be doing since our focus has been on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing and trying to reverse engineer and clone their dough. There hasn't been a big demand to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, at least not on this forum, and apparently for good reason as best I can tell.

I look forward to the results of your repeat hydration bake test. Even then, without knowing precisely what ingredients De Lorenzo/Sloan is using to make its dough, the answers may not help us a great deal with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formlation. The best I can hope for is to confirm what I think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing.

Peter

Peter,

Athough I could not do the calculations to find out what hydration the hydration baked test showed, I thought those results were probably out of line too.  The number you calculated out of my hydration bake test at 37% is way to low in my opinion too. 

I understand that the hydration bake test alone does not help much either.  I recall over at the MM thread when we were trying to reverse engineer or clone that pizza we knew all of the ingredients up front. 

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40-% range too.  I would think that would put the pizza in cracker territory. 

I will try to repeat the hydration bake test later today, or in the next few days.  I think you have a better handle on what De Lorezno's/Robbinsville is doing from your logic and learning from all of your experiments.

De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough does feel dry though in my opinion, just from feeling it and trying to open the dough, but surely not as dry as a cracker dough.

BTW you didn't use your latest experimental dough to make a pizza did you?  I think if it gets cooler in your area if you can bake one of your dough skins into a pizza that might tell you more.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #416 on: August 29, 2013, 02:20:31 PM »
Norma,

The 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total dough ball weight. It is not the hydration value, which is the weight of water divided by the weight of flour.

No, I did not use the last test dough to make a pizza. It has been in the high 90s of late and today it is supposed to hit 103 degrees. However, I remember the De Lorenzo clone pizzas I made before. I started with hydration values of around 50% but worked my way to about 58%. I also tried different flours, from all-purpose to high-gluten, but I found that I liked the high-gluten flour best. That leads me to believe that the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that you now have in your possession may be a good choice. My thickness factors were somewhat lower than what I would propose today, and that resulted in crusts that, in retrospect, were perhaps too thin. Baking the De Lorenzo clone pizzas was also a challenge in my standard home electric oven, especially achieving a long bake time.

Since you have the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville appears to be using from what has been reported, and since you also have a commercial deck oven and a commercial mixer available to you if needed at some point, I am hoping that you will be able to create something that emulates the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas far better than I can do in my home setting. You also have good tomato and cheese choices. But, as always, the proof is in the pudding.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 02:24:47 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #417 on: August 29, 2013, 02:55:10 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan, at http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township . Note, in particular, the comments directed to the taste/flavor of the pizza crusts. You and Steve may be right about a salt deficiency.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #418 on: August 29, 2013, 06:21:11 PM »
Norma,

The 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total dough ball weight. It is not the hydration value, which is the weight of water divided by the weight of flour.

No, I did not use the last test dough to make a pizza. It has been in the high 90s of late and today it is supposed to hit 103 degrees. However, I remember the De Lorenzo clone pizzas I made before. I started with hydration values of around 50% but worked my way to about 58%. I also tried different flours, from all-purpose to high-gluten, but I found that I liked the high-gluten flour best. That leads me to believe that the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that you now have in your possession may be a good choice. My thickness factors were somewhat lower than what I would propose today, and that resulted in crusts that, in retrospect, were perhaps too thin. Baking the De Lorenzo clone pizzas was also a challenge in my standard home electric oven, especially achieving a long bake time.

Since you have the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville appears to be using from what has been reported, and since you also have a commercial deck oven and a commercial mixer available to you if needed at some point, I am hoping that you will be able to create something that emulates the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas far better than I can do in my home setting. You also have good tomato and cheese choices. But, as always, the proof is in the pudding.

Peter

Peter,

I think you know by now how bad in math I am and even understanding things sometimes.  Thanks for explaining the 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total ball weight. 

I can understand why you did not make the pizza out of your test dough.  It is really hot in your area.  Thanks for telling me what hydrations values you worked though in the De Lorenzo's clone doughs you made before.  I can only hope I will do the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour justice when I get to make a dough.  Interesting that you think your thickness factors were too low before.  I can understand the De Lorenzo clone pizzas were a challenge in your standard home oven.

I know I have all the things that are needed, but then I am not a descendant of De Lorenzo's or one of their employees.   :-D

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #419 on: August 29, 2013, 06:26:24 PM »
Norma,

I thought that you might enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan, at http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township . Note, in particular, the comments directed to the taste/flavor of the pizza crusts. You and Steve may be right about a salt deficiency.

Peter

Peter,

I did enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan.  Thanks for the link.  I believe Steve and I were right about either no salt in their dough, or very little.  I know Steve can taste a mile off if no salt is in a dough or pizza crust.  He tasted the dough first and then I had to follow.  I did agree with Steve this time.  >:D

Norma
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