Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 60269 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #480 on: September 02, 2013, 11:48:44 AM »
I have been trying to figure out why my attempt last week using the dough ball from De Lorenzo's/Sloan needed olive oil on the rim in the bake to get it a little browner.  The same thing happened yesterday that the rim was almost pure white even after the pizza had baked in the BS for awhile.  For such a long bake with a thin pizza I would think the rim crust would brown faster.
Norma,

I am pretty certain that the reason you did not get good crust colorization was because of insufficient residual sugars in the dough as of the time of the bake. In the absence of added sugar (sucrose) in the dough, which eventually would be decomposed to natural sugars and also caramelize to provide additional color, the only sugars available in the dough as of the time of the bake are those natural sugars that are produced by the conversion of damaged starch in the flour by the enzymes in the flour. Part of those sugars are used as food by the yeast. In your case, since you significantly increased the amount of yeast to make your short term, same day dough, the demand of the yeast for food increased in proportion, leaving less residual sugars at the time of the bake to brown the crust. Had you added some sugar to the dough, you should have gotten more color. Using some honey in the dough might have been even better because it has some natural sugars that are immediately available for use by the yeast for fermentation purposes, whereas sugar has to be decomposed to natural sugars, which can take some time.

In the case of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, if their dough is cold fermented for say, a day, the expectation is that there will be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration. If they need to put oil on the rims of their pizzas before baking to aid in crust color development, that might mean that their residual  sugars levels are a bit on the low side. That could happen if they do not let their doughs cold ferment long enough. Another day or so of cold fermentation would generate more residual sugars. Beyond that, the residual sugars would start to decline. The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza assemblers may know from experience when they should oil the rims. While I read of the practice, I do not recall seeing oiling of the rims in any of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos or the video you posted.

Peter


Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #481 on: September 02, 2013, 12:17:10 PM »
Norma, the photos look really good re: the rigidity that Robbinsville gets. A little more char...but...not as much as they did at Hudson (Sam told me initially in Robbinsville people thought the pies were burnt, so they charred them less, except on request for "Trenton style." You're onto something. But, what is that baking machine? I've never seen anything like it....

Re:oiling, they oil the pies, in some cases (I think depending on the toppings; obviously sausage doesn't need it) before any bake. But...they oil the edges (and maybe more) partway-midway through the bake to, I think, get an attractive color. I'd guess they play it "by eye", but...might do it in all cases; I don't know...and don't know why they throw some cheese on then, too...maybe for aesthetics??

I don't use sugar in my dough..and usually allow the SAF instant yeast to feast for at least 24 hours....but I'm wondering if less yeast and a little sugar would work? Though, I'm pretty sure Robbinsville uses no sugar.

Stuart

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #482 on: September 02, 2013, 12:22:02 PM »
Norma,

, I would add that commercial dough balls such as produced at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville will be of much higher quality, with better strength and elasticity characteristics, than those we make at home.


Peter

Peter, why is that? The mixing tools....the quantity they make? Are they that much better than a big Cusinart's product? I've always assumed what you say...but don't know why that should be.

And, Robbinsville/Trenton has never been willing to sell/give dough....to compare. So, I've never felt their dough.
Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #483 on: September 02, 2013, 03:55:20 PM »
Peter, why is that? The mixing tools....the quantity they make? Are they that much better than a big Cusinart's product? I've always assumed what you say...but don't know why that should be.

Stuart,

Norma should be in a better position to answer your question than I since she regularly works with both commercial and home mixing equipment. However, from what I have observed, commercial equipment is capable of making higher quality pizza dough than can be made at home using standard stand mixers, food processors and bread machines. Commercial mixers do a better job of uniformly combining, mixing and kneading the dough ingredients and, as a result, the dough balls made from the dough are more cohesive and with a better developed gluten structure. Some people are able to make dough balls at home with a comparable quality but it is hard to do as consistently as when using commercial mixers. Also, special measures may be needed in a home setting, such as sifting the flour, using the mixer attachments selectively (for example, Norma sometimes uses only the flat beater attachment of her home stand mixer), using autolyse and similar rest periods, using a combination of mixer speeds and adjusting mix and knead times, and using stretch and fold or similar techniques. Often, members who have watched videos of Tony Gemignani masterfully opening dough balls to make skins ask why they can't get the same results with their homemade dough balls. The answer is that Tony's dough balls are made with a commercial mixer and are of better quality as a result.

At the former De Lorenzo/Hudson location, Gary Amico used a Hobart mixer to make his dough. One of the photos at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html shows that mixer. I would imagine that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location also uses a Hobart mixer. If that location also uses a dough divider/rounder, the dough balls spit out of that machine should be of high quality.

BTW, another photo at the website referenced above shows a worker adding more shredded cheese to a partially baked pizza.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 05:01:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #484 on: September 02, 2013, 04:49:54 PM »
Norma,

While I was looking at the photo at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html that shows Gary Amico with his Hobart mixer (see below), I noticed what appeared to be bags of flour on the floor to the left of the mixer (when viewed from the front of the mixer). I amplified the photo using my computer's zoom feature and I believe that it is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. You should amplify and then compare that photo of the flour bag with the one you showed at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619. The Gary Amico photo was taken in January, 2012, just as the Hudson location was getting ready to close its doors. I think the odds are quite good that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using the same flour. There would have been no good reason to switch flours that I can see.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #485 on: September 02, 2013, 06:14:52 PM »
Norma,

I am pretty certain that the reason you did not get good crust colorization was because of insufficient residual sugars in the dough as of the time of the bake. In the absence of added sugar (sucrose) in the dough, which eventually would be decomposed to natural sugars and also caramelize to provide additional color, the only sugars available in the dough as of the time of the bake are those natural sugars that are produced by the conversion of damaged starch in the flour by the enzymes in the flour. Part of those sugars are used as food by the yeast. In your case, since you significantly increased the amount of yeast to make your short term, same day dough, the demand of the yeast for food increased in proportion, leaving less residual sugars at the time of the bake to brown the crust. Had you added some sugar to the dough, you should have gotten more color. Using some honey in the dough might have been even better because it has some natural sugars that are immediately available for use by the yeast for fermentation purposes, whereas sugar has to be decomposed to natural sugars, which can take some time.

In the case of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, if their dough is cold fermented for say, a day, the expectation is that there will be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration. If they need to put oil on the rims of their pizzas before baking to aid in crust color development, that might mean that their residual  sugars levels are a bit on the low side. That could happen if they do not let their doughs cold ferment long enough. Another day or so of cold fermentation would generate more residual sugars. Beyond that, the residual sugars would start to decline. The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza assemblers may know from experience when they should oil the rims. While I read of the practice, I do not recall seeing oiling of the rims in any of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos or the video you posted.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining why I did not get good crust colorization.  If I ever make another fast De Lorenzo's dough I will add sugar or honey. 

I can understand if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cold ferments their dough for a a day there would be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration.  That makes sense that the De Lorenzo's assemblers would know from experience when oil might be needed on the rim crust if they dough isn't fermented long enough.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #486 on: September 02, 2013, 06:31:57 PM »
Norma, the photos look really good re: the rigidity that Robbinsville gets. A little more char...but...not as much as they did at Hudson (Sam told me initially in Robbinsville people thought the pies were burnt, so they charred them less, except on request for "Trenton style." You're onto something. But, what is that baking machine? I've never seen anything like it....

Re:oiling, they oil the pies, in some cases (I think depending on the toppings; obviously sausage doesn't need it) before any bake. But...they oil the edges (and maybe more) partway-midway through the bake to, I think, get an attractive color. I'd guess they play it "by eye", but...might do it in all cases; I don't know...and don't know why they throw some cheese on then, too...maybe for aesthetics??



Stuart,

Thanks for your kind comment!  I am not there yet, but with Peter's help we might get there.

That baking machine/pizza oven is a Blackstone Pizza Oven and they are a fairly new kind of pizza oven.  There is a whole thread about them at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.0.html  The BS can bake almost any kind of pizza and sure is cool.  I started a thread when I purchased mine at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.0.html  If you like to make a lot of pizzas maybe you want to purchase one too.   :-D

Thanks for telling us they do oil the pies in some cases depending on the toppings.  Do you mean they oil all the skin edges before the bake?  I didn't see that.

Do you have any photos of your De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville attempts?

I do have a 20 qt. Hobart mixer at market, and yes in my opinion it mixes doughs better.  I can try to get doughs like that at home, but most of the time I have to make changes like Peter posted to get my doughs near how my Hobart mixes.  There is a difference too in making bigger batches of dough.  My 20 qt. Hobart can't compete with the ones that are larger than mine though.  Joe Kelley from General Mills told me a bigger mixer mixes better than mine.  In my opinion the dough also mixes faster and is stronger in my Hobart.

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #487 on: September 02, 2013, 07:00:54 PM »
Norma,

While I was looking at the photo at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html that shows Gary Amico with his Hobart mixer (see below), I noticed what appeared to be bags of flour on the floor to the left of the mixer (when viewed from the front of the mixer). I amplified the photo using my computer's zoom feature and I believe that it is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. You should amplify and then compare that photo of the flour bag with the one you showed at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619. The Gary Amico photo was taken in January, 2012, just as the Hudson location was getting ready to close its doors. I think the odds are quite good that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using the same flour. There would have been no good reason to switch flours that I can see.

Peter


Peter,

I did not pick up when looking at that photo before that there is the Pillsbury flour that looks like Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour.  I used my computers zoom feature and saw the same thing.  Those bags of Pillsbury flour do look like my bag of Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour.  Did you notice that same yellow stuff on the dough boxes too?  I didn't even look enough when I looked at the photo before to see there was a back and next feature to show all of the photos.  Did you notice in the photo of the assembler dressing what I guess is a sausage pizza that same yellow stuff is in the dough box standing up in the corner on the right side of that photo?  I wonder what that yellow stuff is.  I would not think it would be plain semolina or cornmeal, because I think either of them would fall in the dough box.  That yellow stuff looks like it sticks and stays in place.  Do you have any idea of what that yellow substance is?  Maybe it might be semolina or cornmeal mixed with some kind of oil though.

I see where the assembler is adding more cheese.   

I see no good reason to change flours either at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville if that photo of Gary Amico was taken in January, 2012.

So much went on so quick when I was watching at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville that I know I didn't catch it all.  If I would have had a bigger memory stick on my camera I would have taken more videos.  If I also lived closer to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville I would investigate more too on how they really bake and dress their pizzas.  I did not see any oiling of the rims at De Lorenzo/Robbinville, but I could have missed them doing that.  I was too busy trying to chat to the assemblers and trying to take photos and take everything in I could.   

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #488 on: September 02, 2013, 07:40:19 PM »
Norma,

In the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer, the dough box on the table seems to have the yellow stuff in it too. I didn't pick up on the dough box in the other photo you showed. I suppose that it is possible that the bottom inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface. Or maybe the semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled over the bottom inside surface of the dough box and the dough balls themselves are oiled before putting them into the dough box. In either case, I think that at least some of the semolina or cornmeal would stick in place. However, I did not see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary is forming the dough balls. I don't know if you saw it, but on a rack on the side wall there is a yellow gallon-sized jug. That jug looks like the one that was in the video that you took and posted. Maybe that is the oil blend. I couldn't make out anything on the jug when I magnified the photo.

Further to the oil matter, you will recall that Stuart said that he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. Maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact. If that is the case, 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much.

Logically, as between the two approaches mentioned above, I would tend to go with the method where the inside bottom surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then sprinkled with semolina or cornmeal. Mixing oil with semolina or cornmeal and trying to spread the mix in the dough boxes would seem to be messier than the methods I mentioned.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #489 on: September 02, 2013, 08:37:48 PM »
Norma,

In the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer, the dough box on the table seems to have the yellow stuff in it too. I didn't pick up on the dough box in the other photo you showed. I suppose that it is possible that the bottom inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface. Or maybe the semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled over the bottom inside surface of the dough box and the dough balls themselves are oiled before putting them into the dough box. In either case, I think that at least some of the semolina or cornmeal would stick in place. However, I did not see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary is forming the dough balls. I don't know if you saw it, but on a rack on the side wall there is a yellow gallon-sized jug. That jug looks like the one that was in the video that you took and posted. Maybe that is the oil blend. I couldn't make out anything on the jug when I magnified the photo.

Further to the oil matter, you will recall that Stuart said that he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. Maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact. If that is the case, 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much.

Logically, as between the two approaches mentioned above, I would tend to go with the method where the inside bottom surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then sprinkled with semolina or cornmeal. Mixing oil with semolina or cornmeal and trying to spread the mix in the dough boxes would seem to be messier than the methods I mentioned.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer the dough box on the table seems to have that yellow stuff in too.  You are probably right that that inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface.  I didn't see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary was forming the dough balls either.  I did see the yellow gallon-sized jug on a rack on the side wall.  I know it looks like the yellow jug I saw at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  If only would have been a little taller maybe I could have seen what kind of oil was in that gallon-sized yellow container.  I think it is probably the oil blend.  I could not make out anything on the jug when I magnified that photo either. 

I do recall Stuart said he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.  You could be right that maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact.  I didn't think about that if only oil is put in the dough boxes some way and no oil is put into the dough that the 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much. 

I did oil the bottom of my plastic container today after I floured the dough ball. I will see what happens tomorrow.  Another thing I thought was interesting from the photo you posted of Gary is he doesn't look like he flours the dough balls at all.  I would think they might dry out some from not oiling or flouring the dough balls.  That big piece of dough looks kind of ragged to me and not fully mixed.  Is that your thoughts too?  The dough balls in the dough box don't look really balled well either.  I have no idea, but maybe oil could be sprayed on the cornmeal or semolina too to make it like an even texture to put the dough balls on top of. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #490 on: September 02, 2013, 09:09:40 PM »
I didn't really look closely at this one photo either in this link, http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html but in the right hand corner I think that says Sorrento cheese on part of the bag that can be viewed.  In that link you can choose fullscreen to view the photos.  Those photos were taken at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #491 on: September 02, 2013, 09:25:03 PM »
I did oil the bottom of my plastic container today after I floured the dough ball. I will see what happens tomorrow.  Another thing I thought was interesting from the photo you posted of Gary is he doesn't look like he flours the dough balls at all.  I would think they might dry out some from not oiling or flouring the dough balls.  That big piece of dough looks kind of ragged to me and not fully mixed.  Is that your thoughts too?  The dough balls in the dough box don't look really balled well either.  I have no idea, but maybe oil could be sprayed on the cornmeal or semolina too to make it like an even texture to put the dough balls on top of. 
Norma,

I don't think I can completely figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from the photo. It is just a single snapshot in time. We don't really know what happened before or after that snapshot. But I do agree that the dough mass on the bench and the dough balls do look on the scruffy side. However, after decades of making dough balls, Gary must have known what he was doing and the reasons for his methods.

I forgot to mention it earlier but today I did a search to find sources of blends of olive oil and either canola or soybean oil. I was thinking of an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend or an 80/20 olive oil/soybean oil blend. Surprisingly, the 80/20 blends that I found were either 80% canola oil or 80% soybean oil and only 20% for the olive oil. And the canola blend seemed to be more prevalent than the soybean blend. Since all of the articles I read on this point said that the De Lorenzos drizzled olive oil on the pizzas, I assumed that the olive oil was the predominant oil in the blend. That may well be true but I could not find an 80/20 blend where the olive oil was 80%. Maybe I need to do a more thorough search.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #492 on: September 02, 2013, 09:47:13 PM »
I didn't really look closely at this one photo either in this link, http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html but in the right hand corner I think that says Sorrento cheese on part of the bag that can be viewed.  In that link you can choose fullscreen to view the photos.  Those photos were taken at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

Norma,

I think you are right. In its packaging, Sorrento uses the big capital S followed by the small o: http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sorrento-wm-mozzarella-provolone-shred-5-lb-bag/162941.ip

Since De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tried to pattern itself after De Lorenzo/Hudson, it is probable that they are also using the Sorrento mozzarella cheese.

Peter


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #493 on: September 02, 2013, 09:57:18 PM »
Norma,

I don't think I can completely figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from the photo. It is just a single snapshot in time. We don't really know what happened before or after that snapshot. But I do agree that the dough mass on the bench and the dough balls do look on the scruffy side. However, after decades of making dough balls, Gary must have known what he was doing and the reasons for his methods.

I forgot to mention it earlier but today I did a search to find sources of blends of olive oil and either canola or soybean oil. I was thinking of an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend or an 80/20 olive oil/soybean oil blend. Surprisingly, the 80/20 blends that I found were either 80% canola oil or 80% soybean oil and only 20% for the olive oil. And the canola blend seemed to be more prevalent than the soybean blend. Since all of the articles I read on this point said that the De Lorenzos drizzled olive oil on the pizzas, I assumed that the olive oil was the predominant oil in the blend. That may well be true but I could not find an 80/20 blend where the olive oil was 80%. Maybe I need to do a more thorough search.

Peter


Peter,

I agree that it is hard to figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from one photo.  I agree too that Gary after making dough and dough balls for many years had a method and reason for what he was doing.

Your mind must have been thinking somewhat like mine was. When I was at the webstaruantstore on Saturday I was looking to see if they carried any olive pomance oils and they did.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html  and they even had a yellow container with a green lid, but it was a soya/olive oil blend.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/admiration-1-gallon-soya-olive-oil-blend-6-case/101SOYABLEND.html

I wonder if it is just olive oil that De Lorenozo's drizzles on their pizzas, or if it is more predominate in another oil.  I really don't think there would be a way to tell what kind of oil/blend they are using unless someone tasted it.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #494 on: September 04, 2013, 12:15:38 AM »


I wonder if it is just olive oil that De Lorenozo's drizzles on their pizzas, or if it is more predominate in another oil.  I really don't think there would be a way to tell what kind of oil/blend they are using unless someone tasted it.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #495 on: September 04, 2013, 06:45:24 AM »
Rest assured...whatever it is it is something inexpensive.  ;)

Bob,

I have no idea what kind of olive oil/oil blend De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using now, but it appears lighter in color than what they might have used before.  It is hard to really tell what color the oil is because it is in those plastic bottles. 

I watched the video I posted again last evening and didn't pick it up before when watching it but the assembler that was forming those skins and opening the skins more had behind him the dough boxes with some kind of yellow stuff in the dough boxes. I saw that yellow stuff in two of the photos I posted too.  The yellow stuff left in those empty dough boxes didn't appear to be as heavy as in some of those photos that from that other article Peter posted the link to.  Those skins looked a lot stronger than mine did yesterday or when I tried that attempt in the BS.

This is a photo of the Filippo Berios olive oil I have been using at home and at market for my attempts.

I have no idea why, but the bottom crust on my attempt yesterday was almost white, except for some char.  My regular bottom crusts browned well yesterday.  I don't know if that yellow stuff with what ever oil blend might help brown the bottom crust or not.  I had talked to Trenton Bill on Monday evening and I asked him if he recalls any semolina or cornmeal on the bottom crust of the pizza we ate and he said no he didn't see or taste any cornmeal or semolina on the bottom crust of the pizza we ate.  Bill does use semolina to put on the bottom of some of his dough balls at home in a plastic container and uses semolina on his wooden peel sometimes.  Bill also tried a Peter's formulation in his BS on Monday and said his bottom crust was almost white too and he baked at a higher temperature than I did.  Bill used Hecker's flour though so I don't know if that made any difference in how his pizza browned on the bottom crust.  Bill said his dough ball opened very easily though.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #496 on: September 04, 2013, 07:48:00 AM »
The attempt on the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone did not go well yesterday.  First the dough ball looked more fermented than I wanted it too even though it was kept in my deli case from the day before at 36 degrees F.  I didn't use the poppy seed trick, but it looked like the dough ball had fermented 3 times its size or more.  To add to that after I left the dough ball warm up at about 86 degrees F and wanted to use it we became too busy and the dough ball sat out until a bubble formed on the top of the dough ball.  I then pinched the bubble until it broke, the dough ball then was floured and I started to pound on the dough ball with my finger tips.  The dough ball was almost ready to be opened more over the marble table.  I thought we had enough pizzas made ahead at that time, but a customer came and wanted two whole pizzas.  Things went downhill more then.  I put plastic wrap on the partially open dough ball to keep it from drying out.  We became busier and sold out of all the pizzas in the display case so we had to make more pizzas before I could try to open the skin more over the marble table.  By that time the skin had dried out a little, but not a lot.  I could not drape the skin over my marble table to open it more.  I had to gently stretch the skin open more.  I know if I would have tried to open the skin over the marble table it would have torn.  There were no fermentation bubbles in the dough though. 

To add to the above, the Red Pack/6 in 1's sauce became too watery from defrosting them I guess.  I did drain what I thought was enough liquid off with a strainer, but think I drained too much liquid off.  I thought I had pressed enough on the rim so a bigger rim would not form, but I guess that wasn't the case, because a bigger rim formed while the pizza was baking.

I did oil the rim after the pizza had set and was baking a little more.  The pizza took a little over 9 minutes to bake.  I thought if I baked it anymore the cheese might not be right and the bottom rim edges were dark enough already. 

I knew right after the attempt was taken out of the oven and Steve cut it there didn't sound like any crunch in the middle of the pizza when it was cut.  I said to Steve that was not a good sign because it should have crunched the whole way though when it was cut.  The edges and part way to the middle of the pizza did crunch, but the middle was too soft.  It can be seen while the slice was piping hot how the slice wanted to droop.  I knew then this attempt clone pizza was a failure in more ways than one.

I have no idea why the middle bottom crust didn't want to brown more in the fairly long bake, or why the pizza in the middle of the bottom crust was too soft.  The pizza did brown around the bottom edge crust with some char, but the middle was too white.

Trenton Bill told me the same thing that he bottom middle crust was too soft even though his rim edges were crunchy and his middle crust was too white too.  He did use his dough ball when it should have been used and did do a one day cold ferment with no problems in between like I had.

I did not take a photo of the dough ball after it came out of the deli case.

Norma 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 07:50:08 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #497 on: September 04, 2013, 07:52:50 AM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #498 on: September 04, 2013, 07:55:22 AM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #499 on: September 04, 2013, 09:10:21 AM »
Norma,

I'm sorry to hear that your first attempt at market using the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough did not turn out as you would have hoped.

From what you reported, there may be a couple of explanations for the results you got.

First, it is possible that the dough overfermented. With all the interruptions that surrounded the making of the pizza, coupled with a high ambient temperature (86 degrees F), it is possible that the dough overproofed and went beyond its prime time to use and was coupled with excessive extensibility. Overfermented doughs commonly result in a crust that does not brown, or brown sufficiently because of depletion of the residual sugars that are needed to get crust color. Do you recall offhand how long the dough and skin sat at ambient temperature before using? Normally, dough balls brought out of the cooler to be used over a period of time will last a few hours longer without any problem although they will usually be softer because of their longer exposure to the ambient temperature.

If the above explanation doesn't apply in your case. it is possible that you needed some sugar in your dough. That applies only to the crust coloration issue. As you know, I designed the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for a one-day cold fermentation to allow you to make the dough on a Monday for use on Tuesday, rather than making the dough on a Friday for the following Tuesday use, which would require a significant reduction in the amount of yeast. Some of the member reports on the duration of the cold fermentation used by De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and the former Hudson location were a bit unclear although member bfx9 reported at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168/topicseen.html#msg145168 that he was told by a server that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cold fermented their dough for at least a couple of days. Going beyond two days without sugar in the dough is perhaps on the cusp but if the amount of yeast is low, and the temperatures are controlled to support a long, slow fermentation, it is possible to go to, say, three days without added sugar in the dough.

When I was conducting my research for this project, I looked for photos of the bottom crusts of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson pizzas. There were surprisingly few. One that I found is at DeLorenzo’s Tomato Pies. Actually. I thought a better comparison was between the photo of the bottom crust of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and showed at Reply 327 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275411.html#msg275411 and the photos you posted this morning at Replies 497 and 498. Yes, there are some differences in the intensity of the crust coloration but this is not something I would worry about since, absent some operational issues with your deck oven, this is a problem that should be correctable. However, you may have to repeat the exercise under the proper conditions to see if sugar is the issue.

You mentioned that the pizza you made had soft pieces that did not stand out straight as well as crunchy ones. Throughout all my research, and for the clone De Lorenzo/Hudson clone pizzas that I reported on at the Trenton thread, this was a nagging issue. Members frequently commented that there were some wide variations in the Hudson pizzas. These variations included a mix of soft and crunchy pieces. And some of the crunchy pieces gave the members' jaws a real workout. It seemed to me to be rather rare for all of the pieces of the De Lorenzo/Hudson pizzas to be crunchy. Of course, the amounts of toppings was also a factor in what one would get in terms of crunchiness, as well as the size of the pizza.

An example of what appears to be a less than rigid De Lorenzo/Robbinsville slice can be seen in the photo at http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html.

The above said, I am heartened by the form factor of the pizza you made, especially the thickness factor aspect of the pizza. Does it appear to you that the thickness crust of the pizza, and of your BS pizza as well, were in line with the pizza you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville?

Peter
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:15:54 AM by Pete-zza »