Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 55322 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #660 on: September 19, 2013, 11:46:39 AM »
That looks like a 1048.  Most of the time the labels are worn off due to age.  The 1048 will typically have a label indicating model (paper based) at the rear gas inlet.

The units will typically need a retrofit to meet safety standards consisting of a retrofit kit which will include a new TS Safety valve.  While that is replaced, it is also a good idea to install a new thermostat including a new temp sensor.  You can use OEM blodgett or 3rd party RobertShaw.  The OEM will cost significantly more.  Out the door you would pay about $600 for a new RobertShaw Thermostat + Safety valve.  So, something to keep in mind while you are shopping ovens.  While looking at the 1048, pay attention to the burners, you would not want a unit with burners which are rusted through.  If the stones are cracked, those cost about $250 each and there are 2 in the oven.  You can check with the seller to see if the retrofit/upgrade has been done.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me the photo of the Blodgett looks like a 1048 and most of the time the labels are worn off due to age.  I think I saw some TS Safety value retrofit kits on eBay.  Thanks for telling me that out the door I would pay about 600.00 for a new RobertShaw Thermostat + Safety value.  I will pay attention to the burners to see if they are rusted and also check the stones.  I made a mistake when I purchased my other oven, so this time I will be more careful.  The lady had the Blodgett listed for 3,600.00, but now reduced it to 1,600.00.  Do you think that is too much of a asking price if the oven is in good shape?   I have to ask if any of the conversions were done.

I am getting sick of my oven and having to rotate so much and still not getting consistently baked pizzas time after time.  Since I have to do something about my floor, that is why I am looking into an oven that might bake better.  I can't spend too much money though.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:49:53 AM by norma427 »
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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #661 on: September 19, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »
If the oven is in decent shape (burners not rusted through and the oven generally clean) is it an excellent price.  If it does not have the updated safety kit, adding it will still put you in the good deal range.

Another note:  The oven requires 10" B-vent for exhaust (dual wall venting pipe) for direct vent , unless you are venting into an overhead system already (indirect venting).  If you are currently direct venting, you will need to add in the 10" B-vent material cost plus installation.  That is VERY expensive depending on the length of the entire direct vent system.  To give you an idea, a 10" 36" section of Type B vent will cost anywhere between $90 to $120 (material only).  It is really overpriced.  Ebay does have deals, occasionally a contractor will sell excess vent from a previous job.  If you do need to direct vent, you will also need the 1048 hood for attachment to the oven.  This is essentially an air plenum (about 2.5 ft high X 12" wide)) which smooths the flow from the oven into its transition to the 10" venting pipe.  If the oven includes the plenum that's even better. 

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #662 on: September 19, 2013, 12:21:11 PM »
If the oven is in decent shape (burners not rusted through and the oven generally clean) is it an excellent price.  If it does not have the updated safety kit, adding it will still put you in the good deal range.

Another note:  The oven requires 10" B-vent for exhaust (dual wall venting pipe) for direct vent , unless you are venting into an overhead system already (indirect venting).  If you are currently direct venting, you will need to add in the 10" B-vent material cost plus installation.  That is VERY expensive depending on the length of the entire direct vent system.  To give you an idea, a 10" 36" section of Type B vent will cost anywhere between $90 to $120 (material only).  It is really overpriced.  Ebay does have deals, occasionally a contractor will sell excess vent from a previous job.  If you do need to direct vent, you will also need the 1048 hood for attachment to the oven.  This is essentially an air plenum (about 2.5 ft high X 12" wide)) which smooths the flow from the oven into its transition to the 10" venting pipe.  If the oven includes the plenum that's even better.


PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me if the Blodgett even needs the safety kit it will still put me in a good deal range. 

I am not sure if I understand the 10”B-vent exhaust, but I understand more since you posted that it is a dual wall venting pipe and as far as I know I don't have that.  I think my current venting is direct venting.  Can you tell from the photo below what I really need?

Thanks for all of your help!

Norma

Edit:  These are closer photos of my current vent and also the outside vent pipe.  These photos were taken when my outside vent started leaking At Reply 637  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112464.html#msg112464
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:39:54 PM by norma427 »
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Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #663 on: September 19, 2013, 02:03:53 PM »
Norma, a few things to consider.  First, the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from your GP-61.  While I believe the GP-61 has a single burner, the 1048 has two burners- which should provide a little more even heat, but you'll still need to do a considerable amount of turning. These kinds of ovens are not renowned for even baking.

Also, the shipping weight for the GP-61 is 525 lb. whereas the 1048 is 950 lb.  If your floor is having problems with the weight of the current oven, it's really going to have an issue with a 1048.

The oven changes I recommended a while back were primarily from a perspective of a faster, balanced bake, but they also incorporate even baking into account.  There's not an oven on the market that bakes faster, more balanced or more evenly than a Marsal MB- and that's the thermodynamics that my recommendations are attempting to recreate. With the right modifications, you can get considerably more out of the GP-61.

The 1048 is considerably more powerful, and power is nice,  but, at the end of the day, the 1048 is going to have a lot of the same issues that you're having now.  Now, if you wanted to purchase the 1048 and mod that, then that's another story.  With the right modifications of a 1048, you could have the equivalent of a $9K Marsal.  But you could still come very close to that same level of performance with your GP-61 with a few tweaks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #664 on: September 19, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »
As recently mentioned, I made a series of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs. In total, there were three dough balls, which for purposes of discussion I have called DB1, DB2 and DB3.

By design, the three dough balls had a lot in common. For example, all three dough balls weighed 10 ounces (to make 14” skins), and all three dough balls were made using King Arthur bread flour (KABF) to which a small amount of vital wheat gluten (about ¼-teaspoon) had been added to increase its protein content from 12.7% to 12.9% (the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour), and all had a corresponding thickness factor of 0.065. All of the dough balls were prepared the same way using my basic home KitchenAid stand mixer, all with late oil addition and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, and each dough ball was placed in a storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl) to which I had added some cornmeal. There was no oil added to either the dough balls or the storage containers. Each dough ball was left uncovered in its container in the refrigerator for about one hour, and the container was then lidded. After each dough ball was removed from the refrigerator after its specified fermentation period, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hours.

Here are more of the particulars for the three dough balls:

DB1: 55% hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.27% IDY, 1.5% salt; intended cold fermentation period = 2 days
DB2: 55%, hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.40% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 1 day
DB3: 56% hydration, 1% oil (blend), 0.20% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 2 days

As can be seen from the above numbers, dough balls DB1 and DB2 were the same but for the amount of yeast which, in each case, was selected to accommodate the specified intended cold fermentation period. This test was to compare a one-day versus two-day cold fermented dough. I was hoping for a doubling in volume for each dough ball by the end of its specified fermentation period but in light of the hot weather we have been having in Texas (in the 90s) I was willing to accept something more than a doubling. As it turned out, both dough balls tripled in volume. That turned out not to be a problem. Both dough balls exhibited softness to the touch when time came to form them into skins but they were too elastic to form into skins in any reasonable time frame. I intentionally tried to force them into compliance but they developed tears. I concluded that 55% hydration was perhaps too low, at least for the types of dough I am able to make using my KitchenAid stand mixer. I should also add that I was able to toss the skins made from the DB1 and DB2 dough balls.

For the third dough ball, DB3, which turned out to be the best of the three dough balls, I increased the hydration to 56% but I lowered the oil to1%. I also lowered the amount of yeast to 0.20%. This time, according to the poppy seed spacing (I used poppy seeds with all three dough balls), the dough ball exactly doubled after exactly 48 hours of cold fermentation. I was able to open up the dough ball with relative ease but I had to be careful because the dough was very extensible. And there was no way that I could toss and spin that skin. In retrospect, I should have let the dough temper for less than 1 ½ hours because of the warm conditions in my kitchen (it was 99 degrees outside). I think a half hour or maybe a little bit longer would have been sufficient.

Based on the tests, I would say that 56% hydration is a reasonable value, if the extensibility of the dough can be contained, but a hydration of 57% might also be a good value to test. But, hydration is not the only consideration. The degree of fermentation is also important because of its ancillary effect on extensibility. If the proteolytic enzymes in the flour, along with certain acids formed during fermentation, attack and degrade the gluten matrix of the dough, then the extensibility of the skin made from the dough will be excessive. That becomes quite noticeable when, at the same time, one is trying to make the skin very thin. Were I to repeat the last test, under my conditions in Texas, I might increase the hydration to 57% and lower the amount of yeast even more in order to better contain the fermentation of the dough. I might add that none of the dough balls exhibited bubbling of any kind while in the storage containers or on the bench, except for DB3 that started to form soft surface bubbling while tempering. That was a clue that it had perhaps tempered too much.

After I finished the tests discussed above, rather than throw the skins away, I decided to reform them into dough balls again and to put them back into the refrigerator again for another day. There was no delicate or gentle way of forming the dough balls from the skins, although I tried to be more gentle with the DB3 dough ball than with the others. I wanted to see if the dough balls would perform better the second time around. They did not. All three doughs were too elastic to readily form into skins in a reasonable time frame. I’m sure that had I been patient and eventually worked the skins into a usable condition, I could have used them to make pizzas but that was not the purpose of the additional tests. I can’t say that I was surprised by the unyielding nature of the dough balls the second time around. From what others have reported elsewhere on the forum, reballing seems to work best with high hydration doughs.

As a  final observation, after I formed the skins using the edge of my countertop and the skins draped over the edge of the countertop, I examined the flour and cornmeal on the floor beneath my countertop. It was a mixture of flour and cornmeal, just as PizzaGarage suspected.

I didn’t mention this earlier, but the method used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsvillle to form the skins using the edge of the work bench is not the first time I saw that method used. Several years ago, I ate at a pizzeria in Puerto Vallarta Mexico (on the Malecon across the street from the ocean) called La Dolce Vita where I saw a worker making the skins the same way. I was so taken by the exercise that I had to leave my table to go watch him make the skins.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 03:20:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #665 on: September 19, 2013, 02:13:44 PM »
That is a direct vent.  The oven is directly venting into the duct and though out the duct system to it's exit.  The diameter appears to be 8" it might be 10", hard to tell exactly.  I suspect it's 8".  There looks to be an air intake bell near the top of the ceiling, the duct might end in that bell where you might be able to reach in to feel the end of the duct ( 2 thin walls means it's a Type B vent).  I suspect that because of the presence of the bell itself, this is not Type B vent.  But a good idea to check.

The 1048 does require Type B and this would mean from the 1048 hood plenum up through the roof and above.  This could get expensive.  If the diameter of your existing vent it 8" it would mean all new venting including potentially increasing the hole in the roof to handle the increased diameter.  You should measure the diameter of the existing.  The majority of the larger deck ovens require Type B -  its pretty much a standard.

To give a very rough estimate, you would be looking at about $2500 for duct work and installation not including cutting a larger hole in the roof.  Prices vary greatly but it will be costly.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 02:26:21 PM by PizzaGarage »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #666 on: September 19, 2013, 05:25:37 PM »
Norma, a few things to consider.  First, the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from your GP-61.  While I believe the GP-61 has a single burner, the 1048 has two burners- which should provide a little more even heat, but you'll still need to do a considerable amount of turning. These kinds of ovens are not renowned for even baking.

Also, the shipping weight for the GP-61 is 525 lb. whereas the 1048 is 950 lb.  If your floor is having problems with the weight of the current oven, it's really going to have an issue with a 1048.

The oven changes I recommended a while back were primarily from a perspective of a faster, balanced bake, but they also incorporate even baking into account.  There's not an oven on the market that bakes faster, more balanced or more evenly than a Marsal MB- and that's the thermodynamics that my recommendations are attempting to recreate. With the right modifications, you can get considerably more out of the GP-61.

The 1048 is considerably more powerful, and power is nice,  but, at the end of the day, the 1048 is going to have a lot of the same issues that you're having now.  Now, if you wanted to purchase the 1048 and mod that, then that's another story.  With the right modifications of a 1048, you could have the equivalent of a $9K Marsal.  But you could still come very close to that same level of performance with your GP-61 with a few tweaks.


Scott,

Thanks for posting that the engineering of a 1048 is really not that different from my GP-61.  I know the weight for a 1048 is 950 lb.  I did look that up.  I am having my floor tore out even if I don't purchase the Blodgett 1048 and am just getting flooring laid on the bare concrete.  I know that will be harder on my feet and legs, but I am partially upset that my floor didn't last that long and don't want to have to go though the same thing again. 

As I posted before I really don't want to do any mods to my current oven, even when I get my floor straightened out.

Maybe I don't understand enough about the Blodgett 1048. I thought the air flow adjustability could be adjusted by the flues to get better top crust browning on the Blogett 1048 as PizzaGarage posted at Reply 640 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279463.html#msg279463

After what PizzaGarage just posted, I think I will let the Blodgett 1048 go, because venting would cost too much for me for a one day a week pizza stand.  :o

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #667 on: September 19, 2013, 05:39:41 PM »
As recently mentioned, I made a series of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs. In total, there were three dough balls, which for purposes of discussion I have called DB1, DB2 and DB3. By design, the three dough balls had a lot in common. For example, all three dough balls weighed 10 ounces (to make 14” skins), and all three dough balls were made using King Arthur bread flour (KABF) to which a small amount of vital wheat gluten (about ¼-teaspoon) had been added to increase its protein content from 12.7% to 12.9% (the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour), and all had a corresponding thickness factor of 0.065. All of the dough balls were prepared the same way using my basic home KitchenAid stand mixer, and each dough ball was placed in a storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl) to which I had added some cornmeal. There was no oil added to either the dough balls or the storage containers. After each dough ball was removed from the refrigerator after its specified fermentation period, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hours.

Here are more of the particulars for the three dough balls:

DB1: 55% hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.27% IDY, 1.5% salt; intended cold fermentation period = 2 days
DB2: 55%, hydration, 2% oil (blend), 0.40% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 1 day
DB3: 56% hydration, 1% oil (blend), 0.20% IDY, 1.5% salt, intended cold fermentation period = 2 days

As can be seen from the above numbers, dough balls DB1 and DB2 were the same but for the amount of yeast which, in each case, was selected to accommodate the specified intended cold fermentation period. This test was to compare a one-day versus two-day cold fermented dough. I was hoping for a doubling in volume for each dough ball by the end of its specified fermentation period but in light of the hot weather we have been having in Texas (in the 90s) I was willing to accept something more than a doubling. As it turned out, both dough balls tripled in volume. That turned out not to be a problem. Both dough balls exhibited softness to the touch when time came to form them into skins but they were too elastic to form into skins in any reasonable time frame. I intentionally tried to force them into compliance but they developed tears. I concluded that 55% hydration was perhaps too low, at least for the types of dough I am able to make using my KitchenAid stand mixer.

For the third dough ball, DB3, which turned out to be the best of the three dough balls, I increased the hydration to 56% but I lowered the oil to1%. I also lowered the amount of yeast to 0.20%. This time, according to the poppy seed spacing (I used poppy seeds with all three dough balls), the dough ball exactly doubled after exactly 48 hours of cold fermentation. I was able to open up the dough ball with relative ease but I had to be careful because the dough was very extensible. In retrospect, I should have let the dough temper for less than 1 ½ hours because of the warm conditions in my kitchen (it was 99 degrees outside). I think a half hour or maybe a little bit longer would have been sufficient.

Based on the tests, I would say that 56% hydration is a reasonable value, if the extensibility of the dough can be contained, but a hydration of 57% might also be a good value to test. But, hydration is not the only consideration. The degree of fermentation is also important because of its ancillary effect on extensibility. If the proteolytic enzymes in the flour, along with certain acids formed during fermentation, attack and degrade the gluten matrix of the dough, then the extensibility of the skin made from the dough will be excessive. That becomes quite noticeable when, at the same time, one is trying to make the skin very thin. Were I to repeat the last test, under my conditions in Texas, I might increase the hydration to 57% and lower the amount of yeast even more in order to better contain the fermentation of the dough. I might add that none of the dough balls exhibited bubbling of any kind while in the storage containers or on the bench, except for DB3 that started to form soft surface bubbling while tempering. That was a clue that it had perhaps tempered too much.

After I finished the tests discussed above, rather than throw the skins away, I decided to reform them into dough balls again and to put them back into the refrigerator again for another day. There was no delicate or gentle way of forming the dough balls from the skins, although I tried to be more gentle with the DB3 dough ball than with the others. I wanted to see if the dough balls would perform better the second time around. They did not. All three doughs were too elastic to readily form into skins in a reasonable time frame. I’m sure that had I been patient and eventually worked the skins into a usable condition, I could have used them to make pizzas but that was not the purpose of the additional tests. I can’t say that I was surprised by the unyielding nature of the dough balls the second time around. From what others have reported elsewhere on the forum, reballing seems to work best with high hydration doughs.

As a  final observation, after I formed the skins using the edge of my countertop and the skins draped over the edge of the countertop, I examined the flour and cornmeal on the floor beneath my countertop. It was a mixture of flour and cornmeal, just as PizzaGarage suspected.

I didn’t mention this earlier, but the method used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsvillle to form the skins using the edge of the work bench is not the first time I saw that method used. Several years ago, I ate at a pizzeria in Puerto Vallarta Mexico (on the Malecon across the street from the ocean) called La Dolce Vita where I saw a worker making the skins the same way. I was so taken by the exercise that I had to leave my table to go watch him make the skins.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for describing your experiments in great detail.  Do you have an exact formulation in mind for anyone that might want to try one out?  I might experiment with DB3 or the one you said might be a good value to try out at 57% hydration.  Your hot weather you are experiencing is a lot worse that the market conditions I have to work in sometimes. 

Do you think the advantage of stretching over the bench table edge is to make faster skins for pizzas?  It looked to me like at De Lorenzo/Sloan they also were cranking out those skins just as fast and they didn't use the same method.

Do you also think my BS might give me better results than my deck oven?  When I tried to make the De Lorenzo pizza before in the BS I think I only had the temperature on the stone up to about 534 degrees F because I was worried the bottom might baked too fast.   

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #668 on: September 19, 2013, 05:46:27 PM »
That is a direct vent.  The oven is directly venting into the duct and though out the duct system to it's exit.  The diameter appears to be 8" it might be 10", hard to tell exactly.  I suspect it's 8".  There looks to be an air intake bell near the top of the ceiling, the duct might end in that bell where you might be able to reach in to feel the end of the duct ( 2 thin walls means it's a Type B vent).  I suspect that because of the presence of the bell itself, this is not Type B vent.  But a good idea to check.

The 1048 does require Type B and this would mean from the 1048 hood plenum up through the roof and above.  This could get expensive.  If the diameter of your existing vent it 8" it would mean all new venting including potentially increasing the hole in the roof to handle the increased diameter.  You should measure the diameter of the existing.  The majority of the larger deck ovens require Type B -  its pretty much a standard.

To give a very rough estimate, you would be looking at about $2500 for duct work and installation not including cutting a larger hole in the roof.  Prices vary greatly but it will be costly.

PizzaGarage,

Thanks for telling me I have a direct vent.  I will have to try and measure the diameter to see if it is 8” or 10” and feel inside to see if there might 2 thin walls.  I get a little worried about climbing on top of the oven and measuring things when my flooring isn't the greatest under the oven.  That is the only way I will be able to measure it though.  I was already at market today and don't know if I am going there tomorrow or not. 

I know I would not be allowed to mess with the roof at market again.  My roof at the vent was repaired many times.

I guess I will just let the Blodgett go. 

Thanks again for your help with the venting!

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #669 on: September 20, 2013, 09:38:53 AM »
Thank you for describing your experiments in great detail.  Do you have an exact formulation in mind for anyone that might want to try one out?  I might experiment with DB3 or the one you said might be a good value to try out at 57% hydration.  Your hot weather you are experiencing is a lot worse that the market conditions I have to work in sometimes. 

Do you think the advantage of stretching over the bench table edge is to make faster skins for pizzas?  It looked to me like at De Lorenzo/Sloan they also were cranking out those skins just as fast and they didn't use the same method.

Do you also think my BS might give me better results than my deck oven?  When I tried to make the De Lorenzo pizza before in the BS I think I only had the temperature on the stone up to about 534 degrees F because I was worried the bottom might baked too fast.   

Norma,

I should be able to come up with a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you and others to try. Do you have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation? I went with the two-day dough tests simply because one or more members previously said that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville used more than one day. Normally, when one goes beyond about two days of cold fermentation, sugar is commonly added to the dough. But if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses no sugar, as was previously reported, a two-day cold fermentation seems plausible.

As for the gravity method of forming skins, I think there are two advantages to that method. First, it is faster than other methods because everything is done on a flat, smooth surface up until the final spreading of the skin, and that takes only a few seconds (more on this below). Second, so long as the skin has sufficient hydration such that it can be opened on the work surface by the use of both hands in a circular motion, the skin thickness is likely to be more uniformly thin across the entire skin, that is, without a mix of thick and thin spots. As we have seen, at Robbinsville, the only lifting of the skin off of the work surface is for the final few seconds. And, as I noted at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277769.html#msg277769, that final time is about three or four seconds. In a high volume operation, every second counts. I think another advantage of the gravity method is that if the dough balls are leading to overly extensible skins, or maybe even overly elastic skins, the person opening the dough balls will note that condition and maybe make adjustments to compensate.

When I looked at the photos and other visual material for the Sloan operation, I did not see incontrovertible evidence of the use of gravity method. Sloan uses a smooth work surface and from the photos it looks like the gravity method could work (see, for example, the photos you showed in Replies 330 and 331 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275421.html#msg275421 but I did not see any actual use of the gravity method. Maybe the dough roller is used even though I did not see actual signs of such use.

I also tried to recall whether De Lorenzo/Hudson used the gravity method. So, this morning, I went back in search of a photo or video showing same. The best I could find is this YouTube video, at 2:05:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=I9W1B75iOAg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=I9W1B75iOAg</a>


While I was trying to locate that video, I also found another video that shows the De Lorenzo/Hudson dough balls being put into a dough box with what appears to be cornmeal, at 1:16 in this YouTube video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=xrz-mLRYYdk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=xrz-mLRYYdk</a>


These are both videos that we saw before but were perhaps looking for other clues at the time.

With respect to the use of the BlackStone unit, it may be worth trying to make a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza given the versatility of that unit. I suppose you could do that using the same dough formulation as you would use in relation to your deck oven at work with the changes in the bake protocol suggested by PizzaGarage.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #670 on: September 20, 2013, 12:09:48 PM »
Norma,

I should be able to come up with a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you and others to try. Do you have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation? I went with the two-day dough tests simply because one or more members previously said that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville used more than one day. Normally, when one goes beyond about two days of cold fermentation, sugar is commonly added to the dough. But if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses no sugar, as was previously reported, a two-day cold fermentation seems plausible.

As for the gravity method of forming skins, I think there are two advantages to that method. First, it is faster than other methods because everything is done on a flat, smooth surface up until the final spreading of the skin, and that takes only a few seconds (more on this below). Second, so long as the skin has sufficient hydration such that it can be opened on the work surface by the use of both hands in a circular motion, the skin thickness is likely to be more uniformly thin across the entire skin, that is, without a mix of thick and thin spots. As we have seen, at Robbinsville, the only lifting of the skin off of the work surface is for the final few seconds. And, as I noted at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277769.html#msg277769, that final time is about three or four seconds. In a high volume operation, every second counts. I think another advantage of the gravity method is that if the dough balls are leading to overly extensible skins, or maybe even overly elastic skins, the person opening the dough balls will note that condition and maybe make adjustments to compensate.

When I looked at the photos and other visual material for the Sloan operation, I did not see incontrovertible evidence of the use of gravity method. Sloan uses a smooth work surface and from the photos it looks like the gravity method could work (see, for example, the photos you showed in Replies 330 and 331 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275421.html#msg275421 but I did not see any actual use of the gravity method. Maybe the dough roller is used even though I did not see actual signs of such use.

I also tried to recall whether De Lorenzo/Hudson used the gravity method. So, this morning, I went back in search of a photo or video showing same. The best I could find is this YouTube video, at 2:05:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I9W1B75iOAg

While I was trying to locate that video, I also found another video that shows the De Lorenzo/Hudson dough balls being put into a dough box with what appears to be cornmeal, at 1:16 in this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xrz-mLRYYdk

These are both videos that we saw before but were perhaps looking for other clues at the time.

With respect to the use of the BlackStone unit, it may be worth trying to make a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza given the versatility of that unit. I suppose you could do that using the same dough formulation as you would use in relation to your deck oven at work with the changes in the bake protocol suggested by PizzaGarage.

Peter


Peter,

I really don't have a preference as between a one-day cold fermentation or a two-day cold fermentation for me to try, but don't know what other members might want to try. 

Thanks for mentioning the reasons why you think using a gravity method is better and how that can produce faster skins. 

I did not see the dough roller being used at Sloan, but it could have been used that I did not see.

The video you posted first does show De Lorenzo/Hudson also used the gravity method there and I had missed that before.

I thought PizzaGarage said in the second video you posted that that yellow substance was too yellow to be cornmeal.  I don't think I saw in the second video before that the assembler started with an fresh dough ball at around 2:34 minutes into that video.  When I was at the Robbinsville location I did not see how a dough ball looked before it was started to be opened.

I can use PizzaGarage's recommendations of how to try and bake in my oven at market.  I will try the BS at some point too.   

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #671 on: September 20, 2013, 12:58:30 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall that PizzaGarage specifically addressed the video you referenced with respect to the connmeal used at De Lorenzo/Hudson, but at Reply 650 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279814.html#msg279814, this is what he said about the cornmeal at Robbinsville:

In the dough trays in the Robbinsville pics, that’s definitely cornmeal, semolina is not as yellow.  If the ball is placed in cornmeal (or semolina for that matter) and fermented in the tray the cornmeal will embed in the dough.  The finished product will have portions of cornmeal baked into it.  That can be in the bottom or top of the crust depending on which side goes down on the deck.  I do not think that much is any cornmeal goes into the oven due to lack of oven scrapers and brushes, I noticed only 1.  In addition, they seem to like baking on dirty decks. I think that the tray has cornmeal to help in ball removal then it gets removed while they hand form the ball.  Forming the ball over the edge also helps with cornmeal removal as it will simply fall to the floor – the same is true for flour.

As for what the dough balls look like at Robbinsville before opening to form skins, I assume that they look like the ones in the dough boxes shown at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3155_JPG.htm or in the work area at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm. Of course, over time, as the dough balls sit around, their shapes can change quite a bit depending on the stage of fermentation and/or tempering.

Sometime tomorrow I will post some De Lorenzo clone dough formulations for you and other members to try.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #672 on: September 20, 2013, 01:47:40 PM »
Norma,

I don't recall that PizzaGarage specifically addressed the video you referenced with respect to the connmeal used at De Lorenzo/Hudson, but at Reply 650 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg279814.html#msg279814, this is what he said about the cornmeal at Robbinsville:

In the dough trays in the Robbinsville pics, that’s definitely cornmeal, semolina is not as yellow.  If the ball is placed in cornmeal (or semolina for that matter) and fermented in the tray the cornmeal will embed in the dough.  The finished product will have portions of cornmeal baked into it.  That can be in the bottom or top of the crust depending on which side goes down on the deck.  I do not think that much is any cornmeal goes into the oven due to lack of oven scrapers and brushes, I noticed only 1.  In addition, they seem to like baking on dirty decks. I think that the tray has cornmeal to help in ball removal then it gets removed while they hand form the ball.  Forming the ball over the edge also helps with cornmeal removal as it will simply fall to the floor – the same is true for flour.

As for what the dough balls look like at Robbinsville before opening to form skins, I assume that they look like the ones in the dough boxes shown at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3155_JPG.htm or in the work area at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm. Of course, over time, as the dough balls sit around, their shapes can change quite a bit depending on the stage of fermentation and/or tempering.

Peter


Peter,

I got it mixed up what PizzaGarage posted about the cornmeal in the dough trays in the Robbinsville photos.  I was at our local Country Store yesterday and the semolina there was a bright yellow color.  I did not purchase any though, because I thought what would be the use. 

I did see those photos of what the dough balls looked like at Robbinsville before opening them into skins.  Maybe it was just in the video that you posted that the dough ball might not have been as fermented as much, or maybe it just looked smaller to me in the video.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #673 on: September 20, 2013, 09:32:58 PM »
It is possible that the .065 is too thin?  I know based on the available information that number is the number that was calculated...I keep looking at the pics of the balls at the Robbinsville location where the dough balls are under the ticket printer area.  Those look like somewhere between 16 and 18 oz to me anyway.  That seems out of line with earlier analysis.  However, when Peter was attempting to make the skin it was mentioned that the skin appeared to be able to tear easily.  The skins at Robbinsville do not appear to be able to tear easy ( they look pretty hearty?)

Is it possible the weight per ball needs to be increased? By taking the ball to 16 oz it would produce a thicker crust and also maybe make the skin a little easier to handle as the Robbinsville skins appear to be.

Norma, the Semolina I use and have seen has always been less yellow than corn meal, more like a pale yellow.  It is possible of course that a manufacturer makes semolina that is more yellow, personally I have not seen it which is why I made I my comments. 


Brad

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #674 on: September 20, 2013, 09:46:03 PM »
I did not see the dough roller being used at Sloan, but it could have been used that I did not see.

Norma, 

I was re-reading parts of the Trenton thread and noticed from Reply 174 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 where member bfx9  said that De Lorenzo Pizzas had a dough roller at the Risoldi's market which, as you know, stopped selling the prepackaged De Lorenzo Pizza pizzas. It occurs to me that that dough roller may be the one that was shown in photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location, against a side wall in a corner. If so, that might explain why the dough roller was so far away from the make area.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #675 on: September 20, 2013, 10:01:36 PM »


Norma, the Semolina I use and have seen has always been less yellow than corn meal, more like a pale yellow.  It is possible of course that a manufacturer makes semolina that is more yellow, personally I have not seen it which is why I made I my comments. 


Brad

Brad,

I am sure no expert on cornmeal and semolina on what colors they are.  I had so many problems with semolina before it getting the right kind and I did not ever get the right kind for another thread.  What I believe the Country Store sells is Con Agra King Midas semolina.  I should have taken a photo to show how yellow it was.  When I get to the Country Store again I can take a photo of the semolina if you want me to.

I still wonder about how hearty Robbinsville stretched skins looked in person.  I might go to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville again in the next two months, but Trenton Bill said he would not go with me if I took a camera again.   I will have to see what I can do about that.   :-D

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #676 on: September 20, 2013, 10:19:31 PM »
Norma, 

I was re-reading parts of the Trenton thread and noticed from Reply 174 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 where member bfx9  said that De Lorenzo Pizzas had a dough roller at the Risoldi's market which, as you know, stopped selling the prepackaged De Lorenzo Pizza pizzas. It occurs to me that that dough roller may be the one that was shown in photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location, against a side wall in a corner. If so, that might explain why the dough roller was so far away from the make area.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for referencing the link to where bfx9 posted that De Lorenzo Pizza had a dough roller at Risoldi's market.  It might have been the same dough roller that was shown in the photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location.  bfx9 posted in his last paragraph that both pizzas are very close.  I just wonder how close both of their doughs might be.  If they all learned how to make the dough a long time ago the same, I wonder why they might make the dough that much differently now.  I might have to get that frozen dough ball out from De Lorenzo/Sloan and give it a shot again.  I think the salt amount is too low, but maybe I could learn more how the dough handles if I try it again.  My last shot was using the whole small dough ball for a 14” pizza. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #677 on: September 21, 2013, 07:15:47 AM »
Thanks for referencing the link to where bfx9 posted that De Lorenzo Pizza had a dough roller at Risoldi's market.  It might have been the same dough roller that was shown in the photo of the kitchen of the old De Lorenzo Hamilton location.  bfx9 posted in his last paragraph that both pizzas are very close.  I just wonder how close both of their doughs might be.  If they all learned how to make the dough a long time ago the same, I wonder why they might make the dough that much differently now

Norma,

If you haven't already seen it, there is a very nice writeup at http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/ on how the two De Lorenzo businesses, De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and De Lorenzo Pizza, came to be. As you can see from the article, originally there were twelve De Lorenzo siblings, all of whom apparently lived under the same roof at one time and one or more of whom, but maybe most notably, Joe, were credited as having come up with the original De Lorenzo dough recipe. In due time, all of the siblings learned how to make pizza from each other and, eventually, events conspired that led to the establishment of the two separate pizza businesses. With the passage of time, the two businesses diverged from each other and, from all reports, the original dough recipe also changed at the two businesses. There would have been little or no merit to the two businesses offering the same product. That would have led to confusion and might have also led to efforts on the parts of the two businesses to try to steal each other's customers.  In the process, a name that was highly respected in the community would have been severely tarnished and a stake would have been driven between the two sides of the De Lorenzo family that could have been fatal to both businesses. Clearly, the better course was for the two businesses to compete on a level playing field and to use product differentiation and other differences to compete with each other.

Fast forward to the present, the question of the two recipes was addressed by Sam Amico at page 38 of the article at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf where, in noting the two different De Lorenzo businesses, Sam said "Same family. Different Recipes." As for the Rick De Lorenzo side, credit is taken by Rick De Lorenzo (Jr.) and possibly his children for the current recipe used at De Lorenzo Pizza, as noted in the "About" paragraph at http://local.yahoo.com/info-10961042-de-lorenzo-s-pizza-trenton?csz=Yardville%2C+Trenton%2C+NJ+08620.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #678 on: September 21, 2013, 08:29:49 AM »
Norma,

If you haven't already seen it, there is a very nice writeup at http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/ on how the two De Lorenzo businesses, De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and De Lorenzo Pizza, came to be. As you can see from the article, originally there were twelve De Lorenzo siblings, all of whom apparently lived under the same roof at one time and one or more of whom, but maybe most notably, Joe, were credited as having come up with the original De Lorenzo dough recipe. In due time, all of the siblings learned how to make pizza from each other and, eventually, events conspired that led to the establishment of the two separate pizza businesses. With the passage of time, the two businesses diverged from each other and, from all reports, the original dough recipe also changed at the two businesses. There would have been little or no merit to the two businesses offering the same product. That would have led to confusion and might have also led to efforts on the parts of the two businesses to try to steal each other's customers.  In the process, a name that was highly respected in the community would have been severely tarnished and a stake would have been driven between the two sides of the De Lorenzo family that could have been fatal to both businesses. Clearly, the better course was for the two businesses to compete on a level playing field and to use product differentiation and other differences to compete with each other.

Fast forward to the present, the question of the two recipes was addressed by Sam Amico at page 38 of the article at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf where, in noting the two different De Lorenzo businesses, Sam said "Same family. Different Recipes." As for the Rick De Lorenzo side, credit is taken by Rick De Lorenzo (Jr.) and possibly his children for the current recipe used at De Lorenzo Pizza, as noted in the "About" paragraph at http://local.yahoo.com/info-10961042-de-lorenzo-s-pizza-trenton?csz=Yardville%2C+Trenton%2C+NJ+08620.

Peter



Peter,

I did see that nice writeup, but don't know what is wrong with my mind that I don't comprehend everything the first time I read a longer article.  I know my mind isn't like it used to be.  :-D  I can understand there it little or not merit to the two businesses offering the exact same product.  I know De Lorenzo/Sloan uses different tomato products and a different cheese product, but still wonder about about how close their dough recipes might be.  They probably are not the same, but the crust is what mainly attracts customers in my opinion, in addition to the dressings.  It is that thin crispy and crunchy crust that has some kind of magic in it.  I know Trenton Bill and I did not experience that magic, but would think other customers at De Lorenzo/Sloan must like their pizzas compared to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville if they keep coming back.  I have no idea if a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would produce the same crust if it was less in dough weight and baked longer. 

I saw on facebook that DeLorenzo's Pizza had a new website today.  This is the History part of their website.  http://www.delorenzospizza.com/#!about/c1j4r  The about part has to be clicked on to see the history.  I didn't know that Joe mastered the art of Pizzaiola while working for another pizzeria in the neighborhood, but your first referenced article confirms that too.  Since I am the curious type of person, and I know I let my imagination run too far sometimes, I still would like to know how the De Lorenzo's changed from the old type of oven they used many years ago and now produce about the same types of pizzas.  The photo below is of Jimmie near the old oven.  I knew who that was since Jim De Lorenzo posted photos on pinterest.  http://www.pinterest.com/jhd16/delorenzo-family/  It names all of the family at the right photo on the bottom of the pinterest link.
   
Rick De Lorenzo's says this in the last link you referenced:

About: The DeLorenzo Family has been serving their Award Winning Pizza since 1938. Winner of New Jersey Magazines' Readers Choice Award in 1986,1993 and 1997, DeLorenzo's prides itself on our worldwide reputation for a One of a Kind Pizza and our fast and friendly service. The recipe for our thin crust crispy pizza was formulated years ago by older brothers Joe, Chick, Tony and Jimmy and handed down to younger brothers Pat, Rick, John and Ray. Today the family recipe is created and served by Rick's son, Rick Jr., and his children Michael, Melissa and Maria. We use only garden fresh California grown tomato's and premium cheese's from Wisconsin to make our delicious pizza's. Our goal here at DeLorenzo's is to make a pizza of superior quality and to serve it in a family friendly atmosphere at a reasonable price. From the awards and customer accolade's we have received throughout the years, I'd say we are accomplishing our goal.

So who is using the original recipe for the dough.   ::)

Norma
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:33:40 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #679 on: September 21, 2013, 09:07:40 AM »
It is possible that the .065 is too thin?  I know based on the available information that number is the number that was calculated...I keep looking at the pics of the balls at the Robbinsville location where the dough balls are under the ticket printer area.  Those look like somewhere between 16 and 18 oz to me anyway.  That seems out of line with earlier analysis.  However, when Peter was attempting to make the skin it was mentioned that the skin appeared to be able to tear easily.  The skins at Robbinsville do not appear to be able to tear easy ( they look pretty hearty?)

Is it possible the weight per ball needs to be increased? By taking the ball to 16 oz it would produce a thicker crust and also maybe make the skin a little easier to handle as the Robbinsville skins appear to be.

Brad,

Like you, I tried to divine the sizes (and diameters) of the dough balls shown in the same photos that you looked at. In fact, I wrote about my efforts along these lines at the Trenton thread at Reply 154 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg58415.html#msg58415 and later at Reply 157 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg59292.html#msg59292. I eventually concluded that camera distances and angles can make it difficult to ascertain dimensions of things in photos (and also videos). If an object of known dimensions had been placed next to the dough balls as shown in the photos, I might have had a shot at coming up with some useful numbers.

Maybe you have already seen it, but I described the way that I came up with the 0.065 thickness factor at Reply 306 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275023/topicseen.html#msg275023. Under the circumstances, that was an approach that seemed viable at the time.

An opportunity to check the validity of my 0.065 thickness factor came from two dough balls that Norma was able to purchase from De Lorenzo/Sloan. The two dough balls weighed 11.2 ounces and 16.7 ounces. The 11.2 ounce dough ball was for a 14” pizza and the 16.7 ounce dough ball was for a 16” pizza. These are the same sizes as sold at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. In Reply 347 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275514.html#msg275514, I calculated the corresponding thickness factors for the two Sloan dough balls/sizes as follows:

11.2 ounces (14"): TF = 11.2 (3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276
16.7 ounces (16"): TF = 16.7/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08306

These numbers take on significance relative to the 0.065 thickness factor when we consider that, according to many reports on the two different De Lorenzo businesses, the crusts of the De Lorenzo Sloan pizzas are thicker than the crusts of the De Lorenzo Hudson pizzas, and presumably the ones now made at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. Typical of such a report is the Serious Eats/Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html, where the different crust thicknesses was specifically mentioned. In a subsequent Serious Eats/Slice article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/03/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-redux.html, the writer made a point to specifically comment on the thinness of the crust at De Lorenzo Robbinsville. Closer to home, the photos that Norma took and posted of the pizza that she and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, also seem to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. Norma also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

As part of my research on the thickness factor issue, I also took note of the photos showing dough ball sizes at De Lorenzo Hudson at Reply 484 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276892.html#msg276892 and at 1:16 of this video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>


Again, with camera angles, it is hard to be sure but the dough balls do not look especially large to me.

Now, turning to the 16 ounce and 18 ounce dough ball sizes you mentioned, assuming that those weights are for the 14” and 16” sizes, respectively, the corresponding thickness factors are as follows:

14”: 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.103938
16”: 18/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08953

If you mean the 16 ounce dough ball weight to be for the 16” size, the corresponding thickness factor is:
16/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.07958

I believe that the above analysis points to smaller dough ball weights at Robbinsville than at Sloan and, therefore, smaller thickness factors. I had always held out the possibility of tweaking the 0.065 number if Norma were able to come close to making a credible Robbinsville/Hudson clone but didn’t quite nail it. But I felt that getting a credible De Lorenzo Robbinsville/Hudson clone dough formulation was the more important milestone to reach.

Peter