Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 92249 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RockyMountainPie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Colorado
  • I Knead Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #725 on: September 29, 2013, 02:18:36 AM »
I didn't know about the “Pie Eyed” 30-minute DVD from Vincent Amico who is not related to the other Amico's.  I would like to watch that video is someone can give me a link to where to purchase the DVD.

Is there anything I missed in the article?

Norma

Norma,

I did a little searching on the "Pie Eyed" video that Vincent will be sending to you and Trenton Bill.  In case other members are wondering, the DVD can be purchased for $20 here:

http://www.artifactsgallerytrenton.com/pie-eyed-dvd.php

Apparently at the end of the documentary a recipe is given for the home baker to make their own "Trenton Tomato Pie."  According to this source: http://www.njch.org/keyingredients/recipes/   the recipe in the DVD is as follows:

Pie-Eyed ~ The Recipe
(taken from Pie-Eyed, a documentary about Tomato Pie in Trenton)

Dough Ingredients:

(You can either make your own dough using the following recipe or you can purchase it at your local bakery or supermarket.)

.25 oz. pkt. active dry yeast
1/4 tsp. granulated sugar
3/4 cup 110° water
1ľ cups all-purpose flour
˝ tsp. salt

Dissolve yeast and sugar in water; allow to rest for 8 minutes. In a separate bowl, combine flour and salt and pour yeast mixture over flour mixture and mix well with a heavy spoon. Turn dough onto a floured surface and knead for 2 minutes. Working from the edges to the center, press dough into a 12” circle. Place dough on a lightly greased pizza pan and stretch dough to edges. Spread sauce over crust and top with cheese and desired toppings. Bake in 500° oven for 8-12 minutes, or until edges are golden.

Sauce Ingredients:

1 can of plum tomatoes (preferably packed in tomato juice rather than a thick puree)
2 medium minced garlic cloves
3 or 4 leaves of fresh minced basil (or a shake or 2 dried minced basil – to taste)
1 tablespoon of olive oil
Salt and pepper to taste

Empty contents of tomato can into mixing bowl and mash the whole tomatoes into smaller pieces so that the mixture is pulpy. Add garlic, olive oil, salt and pepper and mix. The sauce can be used immediately, but has a more refined flavor if covered and left in the refrigerator for about an hour. This sauce can be stored in the refrigerator for about 1 hour if properly covered.

Preparation and Assembly of your Trenton Style Tomato Pie

Ingredients:

Dough mixture
Sauce mixture
Equal parts of grated Romano and Parmesan cheese to taste
Grated or sliced mozzarella cheese
Preheat your oven to 500°

Start with a ball of dough approximately 3 to 4 inches in diameter or about the size of a medium fist. Roll it out to the size of the pan you are using. (A thin, 16” perforated aluminum pan is recommended.) Roll the dough out uniformly to a thickness of approximately 1/16” taking care not to make holes in the dough. (Sometimes holes are inevitable. If a hole does appear, just pinch the dough around it and close it up.)

Gently place the dough in the pan. You can either trim off the sides of the dough overlapping, or just roll it back until it fits in the pan. For a special treat, take some grated cheese and roll it in the overlapping dough. Brush on a very thin layer of olive oil. (Infused oil is great. I.e. basil, truffle, or garlic oil.)

Spread the grated cheese blend around the sides of the dough and very lightly toward the middle. (The cheese and the sauce will gravitate toward the center during cooking. This is the technique that will keep the tomato pie slice from “dropping” like pizza does.)

Sparingly, ladle the sauce mixture around the pie. (Again, not too much in the center of the pie. It’ll spread out while it’s cooking.) Now sprinkle (or place) the mozzarella cheese lightly over the top. Place pie in preheated oven for approximately 5 minutes.

Using a spatula, gently lift the edge of the pie and check if the bottom is browning. The pie should be a little crispy on the bottom. Don’t panic if the edges become a little brown. That’s good. When the pie is done, slide the pie out of the tray onto a dish or pan. Let it sit for about a minute.

Cut the pie across, then into small triangles.

Serve and enjoy!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #726 on: September 29, 2013, 07:16:35 AM »
Norma,

I believe there was an error for the amount of water, since 110.19 grams of water would translate into a hydration value of 62.69%. Entering the baker's percents and thickness factor (0.064) that Trenton Bill mentioned into the Lehmann dough calculating tool, this is what emerges:

Trenton Bill's De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2 for the BlackStone Oven (Corrected)
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Total (158.9%):
175.77 g  |  6.2 oz | 0.39 lbs
100.19 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.7 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.64 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
279.31 g | 9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs | TF = 0.064
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

Because Trenton Bill did not use a bowl residue compensation, his final dough ball weight was 9.70 ounces instead of 9.85 ounces as shown in the Lehmann dough calculating tool. For that amount of dough, the corresponding thickness factor is 9.70/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.0630. So, his crust was a bit thinner as a result, by about 1.6%. That would be too small to detect.

Peter

Peter,

I will call Bill again to see about the water amount, but that is the number he gave me.  I went over the numbers a few times with Bill to make sure I posted those numbers correctly.

It is tough being a secretary for someone else.   :-D  I have enough problems with my own numbers.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #727 on: September 29, 2013, 07:37:45 AM »
Norma,

I did a little searching on the "Pie Eyed" video that Vincent will be sending to you and Trenton Bill.  In case other members are wondering, the DVD can be purchased for $20 here:

http://www.artifactsgallerytrenton.com/pie-eyed-dvd.php

Apparently at the end of the documentary a recipe is given for the home baker to make their own "Trenton Tomato Pie."  According to this source: http://www.njch.org/keyingredients/recipes/   the recipe in the DVD is as follows:

Pie-Eyed ~ The Recipe
(taken from Pie-Eyed, a documentary about Tomato Pie in Trenton)

Dough Ingredients:

(You can either make your own dough using the following recipe or you can purchase it at your local bakery or supermarket.)

.25 oz. pkt. active dry yeast
1/4 tsp. granulated sugar
3/4 cup 110° water
1ľ cups all-purpose flour
˝ tsp. salt

Dissolve yeast and sugar in water; allow to rest for 8 minutes. In a separate bowl, combine flour and salt and pour yeast mixture over flour mixture and mix well with a heavy spoon. Turn dough onto a floured surface and knead for 2 minutes. Working from the edges to the center, press dough into a 12” circle. Place dough on a lightly greased pizza pan and stretch dough to edges. Spread sauce over crust and top with cheese and desired toppings. Bake in 500° oven for 8-12 minutes, or until edges are golden.

Sauce Ingredients:

1 can of plum tomatoes (preferably packed in tomato juice rather than a thick puree)
2 medium minced garlic cloves
3 or 4 leaves of fresh minced basil (or a shake or 2 dried minced basil – to taste)
1 tablespoon of olive oil
Salt and pepper to taste

Empty contents of tomato can into mixing bowl and mash the whole tomatoes into smaller pieces so that the mixture is pulpy. Add garlic, olive oil, salt and pepper and mix. The sauce can be used immediately, but has a more refined flavor if covered and left in the refrigerator for about an hour. This sauce can be stored in the refrigerator for about 1 hour if properly covered.

Preparation and Assembly of your Trenton Style Tomato Pie

Ingredients:

Dough mixture
Sauce mixture
Equal parts of grated Romano and Parmesan cheese to taste
Grated or sliced mozzarella cheese
Preheat your oven to 500°

Start with a ball of dough approximately 3 to 4 inches in diameter or about the size of a medium fist. Roll it out to the size of the pan you are using. (A thin, 16” perforated aluminum pan is recommended.) Roll the dough out uniformly to a thickness of approximately 1/16” taking care not to make holes in the dough. (Sometimes holes are inevitable. If a hole does appear, just pinch the dough around it and close it up.)

Gently place the dough in the pan. You can either trim off the sides of the dough overlapping, or just roll it back until it fits in the pan. For a special treat, take some grated cheese and roll it in the overlapping dough. Brush on a very thin layer of olive oil. (Infused oil is great. I.e. basil, truffle, or garlic oil.)

Spread the grated cheese blend around the sides of the dough and very lightly toward the middle. (The cheese and the sauce will gravitate toward the center during cooking. This is the technique that will keep the tomato pie slice from “dropping” like pizza does.)

Sparingly, ladle the sauce mixture around the pie. (Again, not too much in the center of the pie. It’ll spread out while it’s cooking.) Now sprinkle (or place) the mozzarella cheese lightly over the top. Place pie in preheated oven for approximately 5 minutes.

Using a spatula, gently lift the edge of the pie and check if the bottom is browning. The pie should be a little crispy on the bottom. Don’t panic if the edges become a little brown. That’s good. When the pie is done, slide the pie out of the tray onto a dish or pan. Let it sit for about a minute.

Cut the pie across, then into small triangles.

Serve and enjoy!


Tim,

Thank you for taking the time to search and posting the direct link if any members are interested in purchasing the “Pie Eyed” DVD about Trenton Tomato Pies, by Vince Amico and Frank Sasso.  After I posted yesterday I did some more searching and saw Papa website has the “Pie Eyed” DVD posted on their website http://www.papastomatopies.com/links.php I also see Vincent Amico's Ice Cream website is listed on Papa's website too.

Thanks also for the link to the recipe for the Trenton Tomato Pie that is supposed to be on the video.  Vincent told me yesterday morning that there is his recipe at the end of the DVD video.  I sure don't know how that recipe would turn out. 

Vincent told me the video is going to be 15.00 and said he has to get them out of storage, because the DVD was made awhile ago.  I am just curious about what is really in the DVD video.

Vincent did tell me Papa's Pizza was his favorite Trenton tomato pie.  I told him about Trenton Bill's and my experience in getting a pizza that was burnt on the bottom crust at Papa's.  Vincent told me to try Papa's Trenton tomato pies again because that isn't the norm.  I did tell Vincent that other customers bottom crusts did not look burnt.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #728 on: September 29, 2013, 04:56:15 PM »
Peter,

I called Trenton Bill and this is what he told me.  He used the Lehmann dough calculation tool and entered a TF of .064  He did not use a bowl residue compensation, but he did weight the finished dough.  The dough weighed 9.7 ounces. 

This is what his print out sheet said.

Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour 175.77 grams
Water 110.19 grams
IDY .7 gram
Regular Salt 2.64 grams

Bill said he had no problems pressing on the dough and first he flattened it out and then he placed his two hands on the top of the dough and moved with his right hand clockwise and and turned the dough counterclockwise using his right hand more to keep moving the dough until he had it around 360 degrees.  He then picked up the dough and stretched it by hand until it was 14” in diameter.  He said the dough handled beautiful. 

This was his mixing method.  Bill has a Kitchen Aid Ultra Power that is about 10 years old and is 300 watts.  He uses a glass bowl.  First Bill sifted the flour. He then added the salt to the flour and stirred with a fork.  Then he put the IDY into the water and and placed the flour with salt on top.  Mixed on speed 2 until the flour was off of the bottom, then mixed on speed 2 for 5 more minutes with the dough hook.  Balled dough and put semolina on bottom of plastic container.  Bill baked in his Blackstone unit at about 600 degrees F.

I told Bill what you said about the yeast amount and the oil.

Norma

Peter,

I called Trenton Bill a little while ago.  I did make a mistake when typing the amount of water in this post.  I had the correct number 100.19 grams of water on my paper, but typed 110.19 grams when I posted.  Your next reply after mine is correct.

Sorry for the confusion.

Norma

Edited
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 05:07:02 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #729 on: September 29, 2013, 08:12:14 PM »
Norma,

I don't know if you saw this article, at http://www.trentonian.com/article/20051024/TMP02/310249997, but you might take note of what Sam Amici said about their dough recipe:

DeLorenzo’s manager Sam Amico said there’s no secret recipe or any special thing they do to make their pizza special.

"We use very good ingredients. We use whole tomatoes, my father and I make the dough fresh from scratch every day," Amico said.

"We have good quality control. We care a great deal about our product."

The recipe was developed by Amico’s grandfather who passed it down through the generations, Amico said, and they use it to this day.


If the above is true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 09:30:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #730 on: September 29, 2013, 09:22:26 PM »
Norma,

I don't know if you saw this article, at http://www.trentonian.com/article/20051024/TMP02/310249997, but you might take note of what Sam Amico said about their dough recipe:

DeLorenzo’s manager Sam Amico said there’s no secret recipe or any special thing they do to make their pizza special.

"We use very good ingredients. We use whole tomatoes, my father and I make the dough fresh from scratch every day," Amico said.

"We have good quality control. We care a great deal about our product."

The recipe was developed by Amico’s grandfather who passed it down through the generations, Amico said, and they use it to this day.


If the above is true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.

Peter

Peter,

When I clicked on the link you referenced a few times all it says is the article requested cannot be found!  Please refresh your browser or go back.  It does lead to The Trentonian though.  Maybe my computer is not working right. 

I think I read those same words from Sam Amico though, but am not sure were I read them. 

I also think if what Sam Amico said was true, that would seem to rule out a lot of unusual things that members have speculated about as far as the De Lorenzo recipe is concerned.  What Sam Amico also said makes me even wonder if the dough might be made the same day and I wondered about that before.  Especially if Sam Amico follows his grandfathers recipe to the T.  I sure would not see the old De Lorenzo's cold fermenting dough years ago.  Sam Amico said in that recent article that olive oil is put on the dough first though, so maybe Sam Amico does not always state what is right.

I did send a message on facebook to De Lorenzo's tomatoes pies about the pizza Trenton Bill and I ate and also asked if the dough is made the same day.  I heard nothing back so far.

I just purchased some Sorrento part-skim mozzarella this evening at Weis Market near Lancaster when I had to go to Home Depot to pick up some wood for home repairs.  At least I know now that Weis Market does stock the Sorrento part-skim mozzarella, but it is not the kind already shredded.  I never was in that Weis supermarket before.  At the price of 5.99 a lb. though if the De Lorenzo's clone pizzas soon does not start working out better in my deck oven I am going to stick to my Blackstone unit to try out De Lorenzo's clone pizzas.  I am trying your De Lorenzo clone dough #5 formulation out this Tuesday though.

Norma
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 09:24:56 PM by norma427 »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #731 on: September 29, 2013, 09:51:25 PM »
Norma,

I believe the link works now. I composed the reply on my iPad, which I find harder to do than on my desktop, and although I tested the link in the Preview mode, the software put commas between the tags where they didn't belong.

Many places insist that they are using old family recipes. But that doesn't mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as were used in the beginning or that the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original. For example, by reducing the amount of yeast, a dough that was used at room temperature can be made to work in a cooler. Also, changing the type of yeast doesn't change the recipe in my opinion. New and better flours might require changes in hydration. And so on.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #732 on: September 29, 2013, 10:05:51 PM »
Sam Amico said in that recent article that olive oil is put on the dough first though, so maybe Sam Amico does not always state what is right.
Norma,

Unless I missed sonething, if you go back to the article at http://www.princetoninfo.com/index.php?option=com_us1more&Itemid=6&key=9-25-13pizza , I think you will see that Sam Amico did not say that the oil was put on the skin first. That statement was under the general heading Tomato Pie, and not with respect to De Lorenzo Tomato Pies.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #733 on: September 29, 2013, 11:08:26 PM »
Norma,

I believe the link works now. I composed the reply on my iPad, which I find harder to do than on my desktop, and although I tested the link in the Preview mode, the software put commas between the tags where they didn't belong.

Many places insist that they are using old family recipes. But that doesn't mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as were used in the beginning or that the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original. For example, by reducing the amount of yeast, a dough that was used at room temperature can be made to work in a cooler. Also, changing the type of yeast doesn't change the recipe in my opinion. New and better flours might require changes in hydration. And so on.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks, the link does work now.  I did not see that article before, but saw articles written by author Penny Pollack of “Everyone Loves Pizza” about De Lorenzo's.  I know that many places insist they are using old family recipes and it does not mean that the preparation methods and equipment have to be the same as what were used in the beginning, or the quantities of ingredients have to be the same as the original.  To be named second best pizza in the nation sure is nice.

In this article abut De Lorenzo's on Hamilton it made me chuckle about the older gentleman with the bad hairpiece.  :-D In that article about De Lorenzo's on Hamilton it says the kitchen was so tiny, that you had to squeeze by the busboy and cooks to make it to the bathroom.  Michael did say though that the crust was a bit stale.  He says they had prepared crusts in the kitchen that were probably standing around too long.  http://www.epicurious.com/articlesguides/blogs/editor/2011/12/trying-trenton-tomato-pie.html

I see Johnny's Pizza being discussed here on the forum with varasano, pftaylor, scott r, Stuart and other members as also being a good thin crust pizza, but it does not have the same crispness or the same dressings as a De Lorenzo's pizza.  I guess I never really experienced a really good thin crust pizza until I tried De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #734 on: September 29, 2013, 11:10:55 PM »
Norma,

Unless I missed sonething, if you go back to the article at http://www.princetoninfo.com/index.php?option=com_us1more&Itemid=6&key=9-25-13pizza , I think you will see that Sam Amico did not say that the oil was put on the skin first. That statement was under the general heading Tomato Pie, and not with respect to De Lorenzo Tomato Pies.

Peter

Peter,

As always you did not miss anything.  It me that read that article wrong.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline RockyMountainPie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Colorado
  • I Knead Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #735 on: September 30, 2013, 02:55:49 AM »
Not wanting to miss out on the fun, I decided to have a go a making a DeLorenzo's clone over the weekend.  I used Peter's De Lorenzo Formulation #4:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #4
Flour (100%): 178.95 g  |  6.31 oz | 0.39 lbs
Water (57%): 102 g  |  3.6 oz | 0.22 lbs
IDY (0.30%): 0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.5%): 2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Olive Oil (0.40%): 0.72 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.60%): 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (160.8%): 287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A   

I didn't have any Pillsbury Baker's Patent flour so I used a 50/50 mix of bromated All Trumps and Western Family AP Flour.  Also, for oil, I added the weights of the two types of oil to get 3.58g and used 3.58 grams of Smart Balance Omega 3 Oil which is a blend of Canola, Soy, and Olive oil.  Hopefully those changes didn't skew my results too badly.

I used my KA stand mixer and prepared the dough ball, which weighed 288 g.  (Pic 1) I was thinking that it seemed like the smallest dough ball I'd ever made for a 14" pie.   I placed it in a container dusted with a small amount of cornmeal (pic 2).  The container was placed into the back corner of my refrigerator for 60 hours and then was placed in my oven for 1 hour with the oven light on and then moved to the counter top for an additional 2 hours.  To my surprise it didn't appear over-fermented and had mainly tiny gas bubbles in it.

I dusted the dough with AP flour and found that it opened quite easily.  It was quite extensible but I don't think I could have tossed it.  The peel was dusted with semolina flour. 

I dressed the pizza with 50/50 mozz and provolone and dabbed some doctored Classico crushed on for sauce.  I did remove the pizza and drizzled olive oil and some extra cheese at mid-bake.  I baked it in my home oven on 3/8" steel in my oven set for 500 degrees (up-calibrated to 535 degrees)  8).  Total bake time was 7 to 8 minutes.

We LOVED this recipe!  It crunched nearly from one side to the other when cutting, but was a little soft in the center.  I could have baked it a little longer, but didn't want to face the wrath of my kids for "burning" their pizza and I do feel that, as Norma and Trenton Bill have shown, the high heat offered by the BS or a commercial oven would make this even better.  Next time I will be more careful not to dab too much sauce nor drizzle olive oil in the center of the pie.  I'm looking forward to seeing the results of  De Lorenzo Formulation #5 and beyond, but this is definitely a keeper for me!

--Tim
 
 








Offline RockyMountainPie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Colorado
  • I Knead Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #736 on: September 30, 2013, 02:56:39 AM »
One more pic

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #737 on: September 30, 2013, 09:00:42 AM »
I didn't have any Pillsbury Baker's Patent flour so I used a 50/50 mix of bromated All Trumps and Western Family AP Flour.  Also, for oil, I added the weights of the two types of oil to get 3.58g and used 3.58 grams of Smart Balance Omega 3 Oil which is a blend of Canola, Soy, and Olive oil.  Hopefully those changes didn't skew my results too badly.

I used my KA stand mixer and prepared the dough ball, which weighed 288 g.  (Pic 1) I was thinking that it seemed like the smallest dough ball I'd ever made for a 14" pie.   I placed it in a container dusted with a small amount of cornmeal (pic 2).  The container was placed into the back corner of my refrigerator for 60 hours and then was placed in my oven for 1 hour with the oven light on and then moved to the counter top for an additional 2 hours.  To my surprise it didn't appear over-fermented and had mainly tiny gas bubbles in it.
Tim,

You did a great job with your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza. You could have fooled me.

The 0.30% IDY in the clone dough formulation you used does a nice job for a roughly two-day cold fermentation. It is a sweet spot for most two-day cold fermented doughs. Under normal conditions, you shouldn't get either underfermentation or overfermentation. In my case, my objective has been to try to make a dough that behaves and performs just like the Robbinsville dough balls that I have seen in photos and videos.

As for your flour blend, next time you might try a blend of 69% All Trumps high-gluten flour and 31% Western Family all-purpose flour. As best I can tell from the Western Family website (specifically, the Nutrition Facts), the Western Family all-purpose flour has a nominal protein content of 10%. Using that number and the protein content of the All Trumps flour (14.2%) in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, to get a protein content of 12.9% for the blend, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour, you want to use the 69%/31% apportionment mentioned above.

Your oil blend is fine. It is perhaps better than what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and assuredly more expensive. You would have to try an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil to see if you can detect a flavor difference. At 2%, you might be able to notice a difference. At 1%, which is a lower value that I have been testing, I'd be surprised if you could detect a flavor difference.

You indicated that you ended up with a 288 gram dough ball. What I have been doing is trimming my overweight dough balls back to about 284 grams, which is about 10 ounces. I do this because I want all of my test dough balls to be the exact same weight. In your case, you don't have to be as fussy since a difference of four grams is not going to have much affect on the final pizza.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #738 on: September 30, 2013, 09:43:27 AM »
Tim,

I agree you did a great job on a De Lorenzo's clone pizza. ;D  Your experiment shows a De Lorenzo's pizza can be made in a home oven with a baking steel which is good news.  Nice job all around.  I really like your nice coloration on the bottom crust.   

Your cornmeal is a lot yellower in color than mine.  I think it is interesting about the different colors of semolina and cornmeal.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #739 on: September 30, 2013, 09:48:52 AM »
Norma,

I think you might find this interesting. Recently, in rereading some of the articles and reviews about the two De Lorenzo operations, I noticed that the writers observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Pizza were thinner than those at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies. The items I am referring to are at http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/25-perfect-pizzas.html and at http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491. On the flip side of this issue, a writeup at Slice/Serious Eats at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies were thinner than at De Lorenzo Pizza. Closer to home, the photos that you took and posted of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, seemed to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. You also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

Truth be told, it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers who commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on the days in question that formed the basis for the articles. Dough balls used in commercial pizza operations are rarely the same weight, even when dough rounders/dividers are used. And the pizza assemblers don't open up dough balls to the exact same sizes, time after time, and get the tape measure out to be sure. Even you indicated that the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at Sloan was about 13", not 14". Rim sizes can also be different from one skin to another. It is also easy to misjudge the thickness of a pizza crust when there are wide variations in what is placed on the pizzas and their quantities, especially when the cheese, sauce and toppings are put on by eye, not by weight. Even if two like pizzas, one from each of two pizza operators (such as the two De Lorenzo operations in our example), were put side by side, it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other. The reality is that a difference in a thickness factor of say, 0.065, which we have been using in our De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone tests, and a thickness factor of, say, 0.07276, which is the thickness factor for the Sloan 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased, is not going to translate into a big difference in dough ball weight, maybe a bit over an ounce for a 14" pizza. And that difference can easily be lost in practice for the reasons mentioned above. I think it would still be nice to know what dough ball weights are used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville but mainly because knowing the answer might help us determine how best to bake the pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:11:57 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #740 on: September 30, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
Norma,

I think you might find this interesting. Recently, in rereading some of the articles and reviews about the two De Lorenzo operations, I noticed that the writers observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Pizza were thinner than those at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies. The items I am referring to are at http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/25-perfect-pizzas.html and at http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491. On the flip side of this issue, a writeup at Slice/Serious Eats at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies were thinner than at De Lorenzo Pizza. Closer to home, the photos that you took and posted of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, seemed to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. You also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

Truth be told, it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers who commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on the days in question that formed the basis for the articles. Dough balls used in commercial pizza operations are rarely the same weight, even when dough rounders/dividers are used. And the pizza assemblers don't open up dough balls to the exact same sizes, time after time, and get the tape measure out to be sure. Even you indicated that the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at Sloan was about 13", not 14". Rim sizes can also be different from one skin to another. It is also easy to misjudge the thickness of a pizza crust when there are wide variations in what is placed on the pizzas and their quantities, especially when the cheese, sauce and toppings are put on by eye, not by weight. Even if two like pizzas, one from each of two pizza operators (such as the two De Lorenzo operations in our example), were put side by side, it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other. The reality is that a difference in a thickness factor of say, 0.065, which we have been using in our De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone tests, and a thickness factor of, say, 0.07276, which is the thickness factor for the Sloan 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased, is not going to translate into a big difference in dough ball weight, maybe a bit over an ounce for a 14" pizza. And that difference can easily be lost in practice for the reasons mentioned above. I think it would still be nice to know what dough ball weights are used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville but mainly because knowing the answer might help us determine how best to bake the pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I did find your links you referenced and what the reviewers had to say interesting. 

I also do think about it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers that commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on days in question that formed their opinions.  I know Trenton Bill's and my pizza at Sloan wasn't 14” and in Bills and my opinion was underbaked.  I can understand it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other.  The taste of the whole pizzas would be different too because they both use different dressings (tomato products and cheese).   

How are we every going to be able to find what dough ball weights De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses since they don't sell dough balls?

I still want to try out the leftover part of frozen De Lorenzo/Sloan dough in my BS when I find time.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #741 on: September 30, 2013, 11:09:45 AM »
How are we every going to be able to find what dough ball weights De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses since they don't sell dough balls?
Norma,

On the one hand it doesn't mean a lot if our members are able to make credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizzas, whether in a commercial setting, using a standard inside home oven, or using a BlackStone oven. If the members are pleased with the results, that is all that really matters.

On the other hand, I always like to know the answers to things I am working on. It is the only way I know whether what I am doing is right or wrong. For example, as I previously mentioned, when I was trying to come up with a thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs, I took my iPad into my kitchen and opened up a piece of dough until the thickness of the skin was as close as I could get it to the Robbinsville skins that were displayed on my iPad. Of course, the photos were in two dimensions and I was working in three dimensions so I couldn't be sure that my approach was a valid one. And I did not do this exercise casually. I spent a lot of time tweaking my skin until I couldn't detect a difference. When I was done, I weighed the skin and, based on its diameter, I calculated the thickness factor. And it was 0.065. If we had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough ball to weigh, we would know the answer to the thickness factor matter. And that would tell me whether my approach to the matter was a good one or a bad one, or maybe something in between. Once I have answers, right or wrong, good or bad, they get filed in my memory bank.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:11:18 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #742 on: September 30, 2013, 11:35:39 AM »
Norma,

On the one hand it doesn't mean a lot if our members are able to make credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizzas, whether in a commercial setting, using a standard inside home oven, or using a BlackStone oven. If the members are pleased with the results, that is all that really matters.

On the other hand, I always like to know the answers to things I am working on. It is the only way I know whether what I am doing is right or wrong. For example, as I previously mentioned, when I was trying to come up with a thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs, I took my iPad into my kitchen and opened up a piece of dough until the thickness of the skin was as close as I could get it to the Robbinsville skins that were displayed on my iPad. Of course, the photos were in two dimensions and I was working in three dimensions so I couldn't be sure that my approach was a valid one. And I did not do this exercise casually. I spent a lot of time tweaking my skin until I couldn't detect a difference. When I was done, I weighed the skin and, based on its diameter, I calculated the thickness factor. And it was 0.065. If we had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough ball to weigh, we would know the answer to the thickness factor matter. And that would tell me whether my approach to the matter was a good one or a bad one, or maybe something in between. Once I have answers, right or wrong, good or bad, they get filed in my memory bank.

Peter

Peter,

I know it doesn't mean a lot if members can get credible De Lorenzo clones using whatever types of ovens they have available. 

I know you are always devil is in the details.  I recall what you did to come up with the thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs.  That must have taken you a long while.  I know you have a great memory bank too.

I have to tell you something funny Trenton Bill said when you started again to try and clone the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza on this thread.  Bill said how the heck is Peter going to clone a pizza if he never tasted it.  I told Bill just watch and wait and in no-time Peter will have something for us to try.  Bill hasn't watched what you do as much as I have.  Bill is in awe now of what you can do in cloning a pizza.

Norma 
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #743 on: September 30, 2013, 01:34:12 PM »
I have to tell you something funny Trenton Bill said when you started again to try and clone the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza on this thread.  Bill said how the heck is Peter going to clone a pizza if he never tasted it.  I told Bill just watch and wait and in no-time Peter will have something for us to try.  Bill hasn't watched what you do as much as I have.  Bill is in awe now of what you can do in cloning a pizza.
Norma,

LOL. When you don't have the luxury of eating a particular pizza that you are trying to reverse engineer and clone, and when you don't have the types of ingredients that professionals use, and when you don't have the right kind of mixers, ovens and other professional equipment, all you are left with is a fact based analysis. That automatically forces you to develop facts. That is usually done through extensive and time consuming research and learning about ingredients and what they do and how they interact with each other, reading articles and reviews, analyzing videos, assessing what people who are close to the matters at hand have to say, and, in the case of technical stuff like Nutrition Facts, learning how the FDA and other regulatory bodies are involved in the process. It is forensics type of work.

As you know, I tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people who are just casual observers and might not have been looking and asking about the sorts of things I would have looked at and asked about had I been there. As I mentioned to you recently in a PM, there are many innocent people languishing in prisons because of faulty or unreliable eyewitness testimony. So, I try to stay as close to the facts as possible. It also helps, of course, to be able to handle basic math and to understand technical matters, such as chemistry/biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related. Most of what I know of these topics I have pretty much learned on my own. Finally, I have learned that it helps to think logically and practically and to try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who are doing the day to day stuff, and to know how businesses work and how important it is that something as simple as a dough recipe fit the business, not the other way around.

Of course, without you I would not have been able to do what I do. You have an insatiable curiosity, you are a hard and willing worker, you don't give up easily, if at all, and you have access to the types of ingredients and equipment that professionals use. You also have eaten some of the pizzas that we have tried to reverse engineer and clone. In that respect, you have been like a seeing-eye dog to me. And you know what you are seeing and what questions to ask. Sometimes when I go back and reread some of the reverse engineering and cloning threads that you and I were involved in I can't believe how much ground we covered, the kinds of things we did in search of clues or answers, and how much we learned.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 93
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #744 on: September 30, 2013, 02:13:38 PM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

I made the dough Saturday afternoon and weighed it out to 10 oz into balls with semolina as "ball bearings"; refrigerated it and took it out 2 hours before I opened it yesterday. Cooked in my two deck, Firbrament floored electric oven at 550....between 9 and 10 minutes depending on toppings.

I have to say I had a devil of a time converting the measurements into something that made sense to me, but I think I got there. I've been making acceptable dough for several years that has gotten me close to the "ideal". I use a 16 cup,heavy duty cuisinart food processor and King ARthur bread flour.

This was, IMO, closer in the sense that the dough was very extensible and strong. It didn't break with stretching, etc...and was a very pleasant surprise. The dough resulted in a fairly rigid pie, which was good. It seemed to rise very little, which was a surprise to me.

Overall, the dough was not as tasty as what I've made. I suspect the No. 4 formulation I used had significantly less oil...and maybe salt. Texturally, I found that it was closer to cracker than I want...ie, some of it was a little layered rather than full of bubbles.

All in all....it was fun to try...and I will , next time, try less yeast in my old recipe...and, maybe less oil, too....I really liked the strength of the dough. I'd never experienced that much...and that's what enables my "ideals" in the Trenton area to stretch away.

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.
Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #745 on: September 30, 2013, 06:01:11 PM »
Norma,

As mentioned in Reply 713 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281075.html#msg281075, I proposed to make another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough but using less yeast--to enable a two-day cold fermentation dough but with little or no bubbling--and using a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating. What prompted these changes was a post at the Trenton thread at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293/topicseen.html#msg44293. In that post, member JoeyBagadonuts reported that his uncle, who had apparently spent a lot of time around the Hudson Street location, said that the dough made at De Lorenzo/Hudson was made each day for next day use and that the dough was allowed to rest before refrigerating in a cooler. Since JoeyBagadonuts had mentioned his uncle in several posts (I did a search and found seven such posts), I decided to read those posts more carefully. What I discovered was that just about everything the uncle reported about how the Hudson Street location ran its business turned out to fit the picture as we now understand it. That lent credibility to the uncle’s recollections.

So, I created the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation as set forth below, along with the pertinent preparation instructions. Having concluded the clone test dough based on that formulation, I would characterize it as a success.

The latest test dough was prepared in the same manner as the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs as discussed in recent posts but with a couple of changes. First, after kneading the dough, I let it start to ferment in the mixer bowl at room temperature, for 45 minutes. Second, after the dough had rested, I formed it into a ball and placed it in its storage container, and then into the refrigerator. I intentionally left the lid off for about an hour. This was to simulate the cross stacking of dough boxes. I then put the lid onto the container. This simulated the step of down stacking.

As the dough cold fermented, I periodically monitored the spacing of the poppy seeds that I had placed on the dough ball. Interestingly, and completely fortuitously, after exactly 24 hours of cold fermentation, the dough ball had risen by 67.5% (based on the poppy seed spacing). This degree of rise was the same as the two-day cold fermented test dough as described in Reply 713 referenced above. For the record, the amount of yeast that yielded the faster rise, as assisted by the resting/fermentation of the dough in the mixer bowl, was 0.12% IDY. Along with that change, I had also decreased the hydration to 56%. This change was to promote a slight increase in elasticity of the skin made from the dough and, as a result, better handling qualities. The oil (blend) was kept at 1%, and the salt was kept at 1.5%.

My initial instinct after seeing the one-day 67.5% rise was to see if the dough could be opened up at that point to form a skin as was done successfully with the two-day test dough described in Reply 713. After some thought, I decided instead to let the dough cold ferment for another day, for a total of two days. The reason for doing this was to see if it was possible to have a single dough that could be used after one day or after two days, yet be free of bubbling at all times. Notably, at the 24-hour point, there was no bubbling of the dough whatsoever.

By the end of the second day of cold fermentation, again with no bubbling of the dough whatsoever, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested an increase in the volume of the dough by a bit more than one and a half times (260%). I took that to be a good sign since it was nowhere near underfermentation or overfermentation. I decided at this point to let the dough temper at room temperature until some bubbling started to appear, whereupon I would open up the dough ball to form a skin. I monitored the behavior of the dough and, after two hours, the dough had softened but still showed no signs of bubbling. Rather than let the dough temper longer, I decided to form a skin at that point. However, I believe that the dough could have tempered for a considerably longer period. More importantly, the dough after two hours of tempering looked like what was shown in the Robbinsville photos.

As it turned out, the dough opened fairly easily. The skin had more elasticity than the last test dough ball but this was as I had intended and planned by lowering the hydration value to 56%. By the time I lifted the skin off of my work surface, I was able to open it up with ease, to over 18”. However, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin.

As before, the best test of the latest dough is to make a pizza out of it, either after one day or after two days. Since you will be testing the dough formulation set forth in Reply 713, the results you achieve may be instructive as to the latest test dough also.

Here are the particulars for the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, together with dough preparation details:

De Lorenzo Dough Clone Formulation # 6
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.12%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (158.62%):
181.41 g  |  6.4 oz | 0.4 lbs
101.59 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation method I used, this was the sequence:

1. Place the water, salt and oil (blend) in the mixer bowl and stir to dissolve the salt.
2. Sift the flour and IDY (and vital wheat gluten, if used with a lower protein flour than the Pillsbury flour mentioned above) into a suitable container (I use a plastic bowl).
3. With the flat beater attached, and with the mixer at speed 1, gradually add the flour mixture (I gradually shake the flour mix into the mixer bowl in a somewhat vibrating fashion so it is essentially sprinkled into the mixer bowl). After each addition of the flour mix, allow the flat beater to fully incorporate the ingredients. If available, a long, thin-bladed, flexible spatula can be used to guide the ingredients at the sides of the mixer bowl into the path of the flat beater, but without becoming entangled with the flat beater itself.
4. When the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl, whatever time that takes, stop the mixer and replace the flat beater attachment with the C-hook. If the dough does not quite clear the sides of the mixer bowl with the flat beater attached, stop the mixer and combine the ingredients by hand to form a dough ball. It need not be smooth at this point but should hold together. Remove any dough stuck to the flat beater attachment and combine with the rest of the dough in the mixer bowl.
5. With the C-hook attached, knead the dough at speeds 2-3 for about 6 minutes. Try to keep the dough ball outside of the C-hook so that it doesn't become impaled on the C-hook and spin without kneading (stop the mixer from time to time to do this if necessary). If the dough ball want to impale itself on the C-hook and spin with it without kneading, scatter a bit of flour on the dough ball or the side of the mixer bowl. That is not a perfect solution but should help reduce the degree to which the dough sticks to the C-hook.
6. Stop the mixer and let the dough rest in the mixer bowl, uncovered, for 45 minutes.
7. Form the dough into a ball. This is where I weigh the dough ball and trim it to 10 ounces, if needed, measure the finished dough temperature, put the dough ball into its storage container (with a scattering of cornmeal or semolina at the bottom), and put the two poppy seeds in place, spaced 1" apart.
8. Put the dough within its container, and without the lid, into the refrigerator. Note the time the dough is placed into the refrigerator.
9. After 1 hour, place the lid on the container.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 93
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #746 on: September 30, 2013, 06:37:52 PM »
FWIW, Peter.....the resting period before making the balls, giving the yeast to munch on some of the sugars in the flour is what I had always done before trying formulation #4 Saturday. I read your instructions to ball them and place asap into the fridge, which I did for 24 hours. There was neglible increase in the size of the balls, something that was a new phenomenon to me. Why did you add this "resting" phase in your latest formulation?

Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23213
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #747 on: September 30, 2013, 07:06:04 PM »
FWIW, Peter.....the resting period before making the balls, giving the yeast to munch on some of the sugars in the flour is what I had always done before trying formulation #4 Saturday. I read your instructions to ball them and place asap into the fridge, which I did for 24 hours. There was negligible increase in the size of the balls, something that was a new phenomenon to me. Why did you add this "resting" phase in your latest formulation?
Stuart,

Most pizza operators go directly from dividing and scaling the bulk dough to the cooler but there are some pizza operators who let the dough rise/rest for a period of time in order to shorten the total fermentation window by doing some of the fermentation up front at ambient (room) temperature. Usually that window is to allow use of the dough balls the next day. Another way would be to use more yeast and skip the rest/fermentation period. But many old timers used the first method.

To answer your question more directly, the reason why I introduced the rest/fermentation period was the following language in Reply 4 in the Trenton thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293.html#msg44293 in which member JoeyBagadonuts reported on what his uncle told him about how the dough was prepared at de Lorenzo/Hudson:

My uncle says he is pretty sure they make them a day in advance, let rise, pound them down, and refrigerate until used the next day.

Since I was making only one dough ball, there really wasn't much to "pound" down. In a commercial setting, as at De Lorenzo/Hudson, one would make the dough in bulk, let it rest/ferment for some specified period of time, and then form into dough balls and put them into dough boxes, cross stack the dough boxes (in the cooler) for a period of time, and then down stack the dough boxes until the dough balls are ready to be used the next day, or maybe later if the dough won't overferment by the time of intended use. The rest period lets fermentation start and helps hydrate the flour more completely and improves the rheology of the dough.

I can't explain why your dough ball did not rise much during the period of cold fermentation. When I used the same dough formulation, my dough ball about tripled in volume, at least according to the increase in spacing of the poppy seeds. Sometimes dough expands but it does not appear as such to the naked eye. That is why I use the poppy seeds.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #748 on: September 30, 2013, 07:31:57 PM »
Norma,

LOL. When you don't have the luxury of eating a particular pizza that you are trying to reverse engineer and clone, and when you don't have the types of ingredients that professionals use, and when you don't have the right kind of mixers, ovens and other professional equipment, all you are left with is a fact based analysis. That automatically forces you to develop facts. That is usually done through extensive and time consuming research and learning about ingredients and what they do and how they interact with each other, reading articles and reviews, analyzing videos, assessing what people who are close to the matters at hand have to say, and, in the case of technical stuff like Nutrition Facts, learning how the FDA and other regulatory bodies are involved in the process. It is forensics type of work.

As you know, I tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people who are just casual observers and might not have been looking and asking about the sorts of things I would have looked at and asked about had I been there. As I mentioned to you recently in a PM, there are many innocent people languishing in prisons because of faulty or unreliable eyewitness testimony. So, I try to stay as close to the facts as possible. It also helps, of course, to be able to handle basic math and to understand technical matters, such as chemistry/biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related. Most of what I know of these topics I have pretty much learned on my own. Finally, I have learned that it helps to think logically and practically and to try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who are doing the day to day stuff, and to know how businesses work and how important it is that something as simple as a dough recipe fit the business, not the other way around.

Of course, without you I would not have been able to do what I do. You have an insatiable curiosity, you are a hard and willing worker, you don't give up easily, if at all, and you have access to the types of ingredients and equipment that professionals use. You also have eaten some of the pizzas that we have tried to reverse engineer and clone. In that respect, you have been like a seeing-eye dog to me. And you know what you are seeing and what questions to ask. Sometimes when I go back and reread some of the reverse engineering and cloning threads that you and I were involved in I can't believe how much ground we covered, the kinds of things we did in search of clues or answers, and how much we learned.

Peter

Peter,

I know you always use fact based analysis and that forces you to develop facts.  I agree that is a forensics type of work.  I know you can also use your math skills and use chemistry, biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related.  I sure don’t have those skills, but usually can follow directions and search.  I always don't think logically and practically though, but at least you keep me grounded when we are on a reverse engineering and cloning thread.  I also know you tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people that are jus casual observers. 

Thank you for the kind words about me.  I do have an insatiable curiosity and don't think that will ever go away.  I agree we both learned a lot on the reverse engineering and cloning threads we were on together.  I like how those threads make me think more and of course the pizzas I get to try out from those threads are interesting. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #749 on: September 30, 2013, 07:37:39 PM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

I made the dough Saturday afternoon and weighed it out to 10 oz into balls with semolina as "ball bearings"; refrigerated it and took it out 2 hours before I opened it yesterday. Cooked in my two deck, Firbrament floored electric oven at 550....between 9 and 10 minutes depending on toppings.

I have to say I had a devil of a time converting the measurements into something that made sense to me, but I think I got there. I've been making acceptable dough for several years that has gotten me close to the "ideal". I use a 16 cup,heavy duty cuisinart food processor and King ARthur bread flour.

This was, IMO, closer in the sense that the dough was very extensible and strong. It didn't break with stretching, etc...and was a very pleasant surprise. The dough resulted in a fairly rigid pie, which was good. It seemed to rise very little, which was a surprise to me.

Overall, the dough was not as tasty as what I've made. I suspect the No. 4 formulation I used had significantly less oil...and maybe salt. Texturally, I found that it was closer to cracker than I want...ie, some of it was a little layered rather than full of bubbles.

All in all....it was fun to try...and I will , next time, try less yeast in my old recipe...and, maybe less oil, too....I really liked the strength of the dough. I'd never experienced that much...and that's what enables my "ideals" in the Trenton area to stretch away.

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.

Stuart,

Congratulations on trying your first formula on this board.  ;D That is interesting that you never tried one before.  Do you own a kitchen scale?  I would like to see a De Lorenzo's pizza that you normally make it you try to make one soon.  I never used a scale before I came to the forum and had a hard time understanding everything.  Now since I understand how to use the calculation tools I would not want to go without them.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!