Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 61153 times)

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Online pythonic

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #80 on: June 16, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma

What is Bills mixing procedure?
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2013, 09:24:23 PM »
What is Bills mixing procedure?


Nate,

I posted Trenton Bill's mixing procedure at Reply 54 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260153.html#msg260153  Peter then did the calculations and set-forth the formulations at Reply 58 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2013, 07:44:34 AM »
My ex-husband came to my pizza stand for the better part of yesterday.  He was in our area to visit close relatives for a few days.  He could not believe how busy a small pizza stand is on a rainy day.  He apologized different times for all of the trouble he gave me when we were married and said if he could go back years he sure would have been different.  He said he wished now that we could have stayed married.  We would have soon been married for 50 years if he would not have been such a character.  How time changes people.  :-D  My ex-husband said it was okay if I posted his picture on the forum.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2013, 08:24:44 AM »
I tried Trenton Bills recipe that he gave me and Peter converted to baker's percentages.  I did change the yeast amount, the salt amount, the pizza size and also the TF.  I mixed Trenton Bill's dough later Monday night.  I also used the All Trumps flour like Bill did.

The pizza was good and I thought it was interesting how different the pizza was when using Trenton Bills recipe.  The bottom crust browned differently in my opinion than the pies I have been making.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  Steve and I each had two slices of this pizza.  Another thing I found interesting is on the reheat of the second slice is how crisp the bottom of the slice became.  There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:29:00 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 08:28:07 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 08:30:50 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 08:41:50 AM »
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924, I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2013, 09:09:16 AM »
There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924, I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter


Peter,

That was my error of adding the 0 right behind the decimal point, and no I did not correct it.  I thought when I mixed that dough that sure was a small amount of olive oil, but I was tired when I mixed that dough so didn't give it another thought on that I might have made an error in putting that number into the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2013, 09:37:59 AM »
Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).

Scott,

Thanks for posting what contributes to chew in a pizza rim and also for posting how your toughest crusts have been from using 67% hydration and using the All Trumps flour.  I can understand that the 20 minute rest period of the batter like dough does ramp up the gluten development.  I also could not mix with my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the amount of flour and water wasn't enough.  I think my flat beater also contributed to the chew.  I did use the flat beater for all of the mix. 

I really don't know how much oil Trenton Pies are suppose to have either.  That is one thing I have continued to play with.  I mixed another two different batches of dough on Monday and was almost satisfied how they turned out yesterday when they were baked into pizzas.  I don't like a lot of chew either in a pizza rim.  So far using the All Trumps, without including Trenton Bill's recipe, the crust isn't chewy.

I know I still have experimenting to do with what makes the best Trenton Pie crust and do know I might never really find it.  I am still trying to make a crust like Joey's Pizza. 

The chewy rim was the main criticism of this pizza. 

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2013, 10:01:57 AM »
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?

Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2013, 10:10:38 AM »
Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma

Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2013, 10:42:56 AM »
Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.

Scott,

Thanks for telling me you think the higher hydration was the primary culprit for the chewier crust.  I am not a big fan of cold pizza either.  I only had that one slice of pizza at Jim Lahey's Sullivan Street Bakery cold that I really liked.  Don't you also think the way I mixed with the flat beater also had something to do with the chewiness?   I have to ask Trenton Bill how chewy his pizza was.  Joey's Pizza isn't chewy at all and for all I know Joey's does used All Trumps.

Norma
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Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2013, 01:23:04 PM »
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2013, 09:05:14 PM »
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.

Lol Scott I sure didn't know you love cold pizza.   ;D  I would have to do another experiment with the right amount of olive oil added to Trenton Bill's recipe and would also have to mix less to see if I got the same chewiness again.  Different pizza doughs do make me think sometimes and sometimes I can't be sure of what the results would be.  That is why I keep experimenting.  :-D

Thanks for posting that you think the 67% and AT was the problem of the chewiness.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2013, 09:32:27 PM »
I am not sure, but think my crusts getting closer to a Joey's pizza.  I dropped the amount of yeast, sugar and oil in two batches, but both batches of dough were not exactly the same in the amounts of ingredients used.  Both batches worked out good though.  My dough balls were not overfermented until Tuesday morning and the dough balls opened okay.  I didn't have time to take a lot of photos, but these are two of the pizzas and the dough balls in the morning.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 07:45:56 PM »
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 07:58:18 PM »
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2013, 10:07:03 PM »
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)

Thanks, and yep of course. I have no plans to cook pizza in my oven again.