Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 68879 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #900 on: October 19, 2013, 09:56:17 PM »
I am now accepted into a group on facebook called “TRENTON NJ TOMATO PIE-NOTHIN' ELSE.  It is fun for me to see the tomato pies that people in the Trenton area and elsewhere are creating.  Members in the group discuss how they bake their tomato pies and what they use.  Right now they have over 300 members. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #901 on: October 20, 2013, 09:12:46 AM »
A De Lorenzo Sloan dough was mixed yesterday using Peter's Sloan clone dough #3 formulation.  The dough mixed nicely using Peter's method.  I placed the dough ball in a different throw away container.

BTW, I am learning form the group on facebook what a tomato pie from De Lorenzo's really should be like.  The creator of the group is a tomato pie purist.  I posted a couple of photos of the tomato pie Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  The creator of the group said De Lorenzo/Robbinsville must be having a problem if our tomato pie looked like that.  I asked what he meant.  He said it looked like the one side was cut off.  I said I also noticed that on the photo I took and wondered if the dough ball might have been cut for the small pizza.

This is a photo the creator of the tomato pie group showed me in what a De Lorenzo tomato pie should really look like. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #902 on: October 20, 2013, 09:45:19 AM »
Norma,

Have there been any major revelations at the tomato pie Facebook website? And is there a link to that website and must one belong to Facebook to view what goes on there?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #903 on: October 20, 2013, 10:11:15 AM »
Norma,

Have there been any major revelations at the tomato pie Facebook website? And is there a link to that website and must one belong to Facebook to view what goes on there?

Peter

Peter,

I have been learning more about De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville/Hudson tomato pies on the facebook group.  To belong to one of the groups on facebook you have to be a member of facebook and have to request to be added to a certain group.  The creator of the group then does usually accept a new person to the group.  I also belong to two other Trenton groups on facebook, but they are not just about tomato pies.  One thing I found somewhat amusing about the tomato pie group is please help you if you call a tomato pie a pizza.  You will quickly learn a tomato pie is not a pizza.  I did learn the hard way.  :-D I told the group I want to learn everything I can about tomato pies in Trenton.

This is another photo the creator of the tomato pie group posted just a little while ago on what a classic tomato pie should look like.  At least I am learning.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #904 on: October 20, 2013, 05:20:48 PM »
Peter,

I want to thank you so much for setting forth the Sloan clone dough formulation #3.  The dough ball opened so well and the final De Lorenzo's pizza was delicious in my opinion.  The dough ball had the right amount of elasticity and extensibility.  I was tickled pink with the results.  I opened the Sloan clone #3 dough ball as soon as the poppy seed spacings were 1 ¼” apart. 

The video was just of how fast the rim crust starts to rise in the Blackstone unit.  The video was started about 30 seconds after the tomato pie was slid into the Blackstone unit.  The Blackstone was heated higher first and then dropped back a little in temperature.

 


Norma
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:26:54 PM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #905 on: October 20, 2013, 05:25:56 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #906 on: October 20, 2013, 05:29:58 PM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #907 on: October 20, 2013, 05:32:38 PM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #908 on: October 20, 2013, 06:20:41 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad the Sloan clone dough formulation #3 worked out so well for you. With a combination of 57% hydration and oil (53 + 4), it looks like you had a "Sloan Clone in the Zone" :-D.

What you accomplished was really a cross between a Sloan clone, ingredient wise, and the thinness of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone crust. I do not recall that De Lorenzo/Sloan used their work surface to form their skins using gravity as an assist as does De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Maybe sometime you should make a 11.2 ounce dough ball and see if that gives you something you will like.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #909 on: October 20, 2013, 07:17:52 PM »
Norma,

I'm glad the Sloan clone dough formulation #3 worked out so well for you. With a combination of 57% hydration and oil (53 + 4), it looks like you had a "Sloan Clone in the Zone" :-D.

What you accomplished was really a cross between a Sloan clone, ingredient wise, and the thinness of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone crust. I do not recall that De Lorenzo/Sloan used their work surface to form their skins using gravity as an assist as does De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Maybe sometime you should make a 11.2 ounce dough ball and see if that gives you something you will like.

Peter

Peter,

Lol!  I am glad no matter what the cross was (Slone clone ingredient wise and thinness of the De Lorenzo/Robbinville clone crust) that somehow that cross worked out well.

No, I did not see the Sloan tomato pie makers using their work surface to form their skins using gravity as an assist, but your formulation and methods made a dough ball that felt so good in how the dough handled I could not resist seeing how gravity worked.  The Sloan clone #3 dough ball opened easier than any of my attempts on a De Lorenzo pizza so far.   ;D

Why would you think I would think I would want try out a 11.2 ounce dough ball? 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #910 on: October 20, 2013, 07:28:43 PM »
Why would you think I would think I would want try out a 11.2 ounce dough ball? 
Norma,

That was the weight of the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Using that amount of dough for a 14" pizza might tell us if we are in the ballpark as far as a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough is concerned. Of course, a pizza with that amount of dough might bake up differently in your BlackStone oven.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #911 on: October 20, 2013, 07:59:26 PM »
Norma,

That was the weight of the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Using that amount of dough for a 14" pizza might tell us if we are in the ballpark as far as a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough is concerned. Of course, a pizza with that amount of dough might bake up differently in your BlackStone oven.

Peter

Peter,

I do recall that was the weight of the small dough ball that I purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan.  I am not really out to make a De Lorenzo/Sloan pizza, but if you think it will help at all I can try a 11.2 ounce dough ball in the Blackstone unit.  You may be right that it might bake differently in the Blackstone unit.  If I recall right De Lorenzo/Sloan isn't baking at the higher temperatures that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #912 on: October 20, 2013, 08:29:47 PM »
Norma,

A dough made using the Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 has a calculated water content of around 40% (based on a flour moisture content of 11%). That percent would not change for a dough ball weighing 11.2 ounces. The 40% number came out of the hydration bake tests that you and I performed. If De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using only a small amount of oil, as has been reported and attributed to Sam Amico, the calculated water content could not be around 40%. It would be several percent higher.

What was good about your test using Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 is that it confirmed that it is possible to make a skin with good elasticity and extensibility that is pretty much the equal to using a materially higher hydration value with less oil.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #913 on: October 20, 2013, 10:42:26 PM »
Norma,

A dough made using the Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 has a calculated water content of around 40% (based on a flour moisture content of 11%). That percent would not change for a dough ball weighing 11.2 ounces. The 40% number came out of the hydration bake tests that you and I performed. If De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using only a small amount of oil, as has been reported and attributed to Sam Amico, the calculated water content could not be around 40%. It would be several percent higher.

What was good about your test using Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 is that it confirmed that it is possible to make a skin with good elasticity and extensibility that is pretty much the equal to using a materially higher hydration value with less oil.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks again for recapitulating about the water content of the hydration bake tests that you and I preformed and if Sam Amico is only using a small amount of oil was reported it would be several percent higher from the oil value you used in the Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3. 

I agree that the test of the Sloan Clone Dough Formulation #3 is that it confirmed it is possible to make a skin with good elasticity and extensibility that is pretty much equal to used a higher hydration value with less oil.

I am not sure if I could have tossed and twirled that thin skin though even though I didn't try to.  The skin felt so nice and was something like I never felt before. 

Norma
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Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #914 on: October 21, 2013, 11:16:04 AM »
Is there a link to that FB site, Norma...as Peter asked for....? And, keep telling us any insights you learn about the grail.

I think we established that "Sloan" uses a pressing maching to push out their dough?

Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #915 on: October 21, 2013, 11:44:50 AM »
I think we established that "Sloan" uses a pressing maching to push out their dough?
Sloan,

It was long rumored that one of the De Lorenzo clan was using a dough roller (see, for example, the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44267.html#msg44267) but it became quite clear in this thread that it was not De Lorenzo/Hudson or Robbinsville. However, this left open the possibility that De Lorenzo/Hamilton or Sloan was using a dough roller. For example, if you look at the photo at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110801-delorenzos-pizza-trenton-04.jpg, you will see a dough roller to the left of the ovens against the wall. I earlier questioned why the dough roller would be so far away from the make area. Also, there was no evidence, such as reports of members, that De Lorenzo/Hamilton or Sloan was actually using the dough roller to form skins. Also, when Norma and Trenton Bill visited the Sloan location, she reported that there were no signs of use of a dough roller to open up skins. Later, as I was rereading parts of the original Trenton thread, in particular, Reply 674 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236, I saw that member bfx9 said that De Lorenzo Pizzas had a dough roller at the Risoldi's market. As you know, Risoldi's stopped selling the prepackaged De Lorenzo Pizza pizzas. It occurs to me that that dough roller may be the one that is shown in the photo referenced above. If so, that might explain why the dough roller was so far away from the make area.

In short, if De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a dough roller to open up skins, we have no eyewitness evidence of such.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #916 on: October 21, 2013, 05:53:06 PM »

Is there a link to that FB site, Norma...as Peter asked for....? And, keep telling us any insights you learn about the grail.


Stuart,

This is the direct link to the Trenton NJ TOMATO PIE-NOTHIN' ELSE that you and Peter asked for.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/184615058322747/  I can tell you and Peter that there are no recipes that are authentic listed for that group and different members of the group are using Caputo flour or AP flour for their tomato pies.  I did not post anything about this thread or the Trenton thread in the tomato pie group, and did not tell the group that I am a member here on the pizzamaking forum.  I could not see anything that was posted before I was accepted into the group.  Maybe someone else might have better luck.

This is about the group on facebook.

Closed Group
This group is dedicated to the Trenton NJ Tomato Pie...recipes, techniques, extras, utensils used, pertinent personal stories of failures and successes when trying to make the PIE. Show us some pictures of your favorite tomato pie...share some of your family stories of tomato pie devouring.....leave the pizza praises for other groups.....Tomato Pie Forever!........

Added April 19, 2012
It has come to my attention that there are rumblings in the street (and maybe even a contract out on me) because of my initial banning of what I called the 'P' word. OK, maybe I went a little to far 'cause how are we gonna' discuss the magnifico Trenton Tomato Pie without occassionally referring to the inferior pizza - there I've said it and opened the gates! So, pizza or as Anthony Del Aversano suggested - apizza - will be sanctioned as long as it is used in comparison or descriptive....such as: pizza sucks, I love Tomato Pie.....or that freakin' pizza looks like it sucks. But, no recipes or words of pizza-love will be accepted. Now, time to have a cappucino and biscotti - ay, you got a problem with dat'?

Added April 25, 2013
Just wanted to reaffirm the purpose of this group - we are getting new people wanting to join...and that is a good thing!
The is a Trenton Tomato Pie homage group......so please 'stay on target' - the one and only Trentn' Pie.....thank you...paulie!!

Added May 13, 2013
Adding on to the message of April 19, 2012 - "But, no recipes or words of pizza-love (added 5/13/2013) - Or pictures of pizza of pizza will be accepted as posts. Please remember - Tomato Pie - Nothin' Else.......thanks, paul

There was somewhere in that group that a member did post about the Trenton thread here on the forum, but someone else said when looking at that thread it gave them a headache with all the information that was posted on the Trenton thread.  :-D  I don't know if the forum or Peter wants me to post a link to this thread to help the group if they are interested.

Stuart are you a member of facebook?

Norma
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 05:54:40 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #917 on: October 21, 2013, 07:49:35 PM »
There was somewhere in that group that a member did post about the Trenton thread here on the forum, but someone else said when looking at that thread it gave them a headache with all the information that was posted on the Trenton thread.  :-D  I don't know if the forum or Peter wants me to post a link to this thread to help the group if they are interested.
Norma,

As you know, we get a lot of traffic from people who are only interested in perfected recipes. They could care less how much work people put into creating such recipes. I'm sure in most cases people think that it is easy to replicate someone else's pizzas. So, to them, a recipe is just a recipe.

I personally don't mind helping people who are here to learn and to be a part of a community of people of like interests. I am not anxious to spend time with people who are only interested in recipes that they can take away with them from the forum. Like everyone else, they are free to read threads like this one and use whatever information they feel is of value to them. Building traffic to the forum is not an objective of mine.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #918 on: October 21, 2013, 08:34:41 PM »
Norma,

As you know, we get a lot of traffic from people who are only interested in perfected recipes. They could care less how much work people put into creating such recipes. I'm sure in most cases people think that it is easy to replicate someone else's pizzas. So, to them, a recipe is just a recipe.

I personally don't mind helping people who are here to learn and to be a part of a community of people of like interests. I am not anxious to spend time with people who are only interested in recipes that they can take away with them from the forum. Like everyone else, they are free to read threads like this one and use whatever information they feel is of value to them. Building traffic to the forum is not an objective of mine.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I do know we get a lot of traffic from people that are only interested in perfected recipes.  I also know they could care less how much much work people put into creating recipes.  I know how hard it is to be able to replicate someone else's pizzas from all the reverse engineering projects I have been on with you.  Many times I have failed in my attempts.

I can understand why you would not be anxious to spend time with people that are only interested in recipes they can take away from the forum.  I am not anxious to try to explain to people either what works and what doesn't.  Trying to make a tomato pie like De Lorenzo/Robbinville/Hudson is very challenging for me and I have tried a fair amount of pizzas.

Norma
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Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #919 on: October 22, 2013, 11:07:23 AM »
Norma/Peter:

You can't really blame people. Most people don't even know how yeast performs its magic, let alone the variables in a pizza crust. I am somewhat in between wanting "how to do it" recipes and understanding the variables. I am curious, but my goal is good baking and eating.

I'm still trying to figure which clone is the "best" on this thread.  ???

Though I have an account, I don't "participate" in FB. I've got too many other distractions.
Stuart


 

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