Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 68677 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 05:51:59 PM »
Sorry about my earlier post, was having some brain farts yesterday. Here's the website
http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/

They'll do a pie that's half Fat Uncle Tony and half Med if that's what you like. Not the best place for date night, a 16" pie is a lot for 2 people.

Condolini,

Thanks for the link to Salvatore's Tomato Pies!  I see under the about part of their website they don't use bromated flours.  http://salvatorestomatopies.com/about/  I am having problems in what to try next with a dough formulation.  Those pizzas look almost like normal pizzas to me in how the crust is risen after the bake and it also sounds like the ingredients added on the pizza are sure top notch.  I also see they use mozzarella and provolone cheese.  I see those tomato pies are in Sun Prairie, WI.

Norma
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Offline kramer73

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2013, 12:18:56 PM »
I went to Salvatore's for my birthday, and it was AWESOME.

One thing about tomato pies...just like pizza, there are many varieties!

My in-laws are from Utica, NY, and they are VERY serious about their tomato pies.  They have seen Salvatore's (which looks very much like yours, Norma) and we have all agreed that it is not "tomato pie". 

I will post the recipe that I found and made (to their approval) later today or tomorrow.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 12:21:24 PM by kramer73 »

Offline kramer73

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2013, 12:26:02 PM »
Here is one that I made awhile ago, and here is the recipe and where I found it:

3 1/2 Cups flour(I never need this much)
1 Cup warm water
2 Tablespoons Yeast(1 package of Fleischman's Active dry yeast)
2 Tablespoons Honey
1/4 Cup Olive Oil(Extra Virgin light)
1/2 Teaspoon Salt

Mix warm water(85 degrees to 115 degrees,should be warm to touch but not hot)with Honey and Salt.Add Yeast and mix. Let sit 5mins.Add 1 cup Flour and Olive oil until well blended.Add flour slowly until it forms a ball.
Knead for a couple of min.( I usually knead until smooth,you know feels like velvet)
Place in warm area in a covered(with a wet warm cloth) bowl till double in size. Punch down and let rise again until double in size.
Grease cookie sheet or baking sheet with Olive oil and stretch dough until it is 12x12" form crust and let rise for 45 min.
Spread sauce on and bake at 450 degrees 15 min.or until brown.

Tomato Pie Recipe
3 tbsp. extra-virgin olive oil
2 cloves garlic
1 28-to-32-oz. can crushed tomatoes
1 tsp. dried oregano
salt and pepper to taste
1 lb. pizza dough
3 tbsp. grated Pecorino Romano cheese
Preheat oven to 450°F. Stretch the pizza dough to cover a greased cookie sheet. Dough should be fairly thick (about 3/4 inch). Allow the dough to rise a bit while the sauce is cooking. Heat a saucepan on medium, add the olive oil and garlic, and sauté until the garlic is just golden. Add crushed tomatoes and oregano. Cook until the sauce is thickened, about 15-20 minutes. Cool the sauce to room temperature. Top the pizza dough with the sauce and then bake in 450°F oven for about 15-20 minutes. After removing the pie from the oven, sprinkle with the cheese. Let the pie cool to room temperature before eating.

Recipe by Frank DuRoss Jr.

for an easier way use Don Pepino pizza sauce on a pizza shell, top with grated cheese bake, cool and serve at room temperature.that's how De Iorios bakery in Utica does it. http://www.deiorios.com/

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx

Sorry if this is de-railing your thread, I just wanted to pipe in :)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 12:28:46 PM by kramer73 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2013, 12:33:41 PM »
I went to Salvatore's for my birthday, and it was AWESOME.

One thing about tomato pies...just like pizza, there are many varieties!

My in-laws are from Utica, NY, and they are VERY serious about their tomato pies.  They have seen Salvatore's (which looks very much like yours, Norma) and we have all agreed that it is not "tomato pie". 

I will post the recipe that I found and made (to their approval) later today or tomorrow.

Here is one that I made awhile ago, and here is the recipe and where I found it:

3 1/2 Cups flour(I never need this much)
1 Cup warm water
2 Tablespoons Yeast(1 package of Fleischman's Active dry yeast)
2 Tablespoons Honey
1/4 Cup Olive Oil(Extra Virgin light)
1/2 Teaspoon Salt

Mix warm water(85 degrees to 115 degrees,should be warm to touch but not hot)with Honey and Salt.Add Yeast and mix. Let sit 5mins.Add 1 cup Flour and Olive oil until well blended.Add flour slowly until it forms a ball.
Knead for a couple of min.( I usually knead until smooth,you know feels like velvet)
Place in warm area in a covered(with a wet warm cloth) bowl till double in size. Punch down and let rise again until double in size.
Grease cookie sheet or baking sheet with Olive oil and stretch dough until it is 12x12" form crust and let rise for 45 min.
Spread sauce on and bake at 450 degrees 15 min.or until brown.

Tomato Pie Recipe
3 tbsp. extra-virgin olive oil
2 cloves garlic
1 28-to-32-oz. can crushed tomatoes
1 tsp. dried oregano
salt and pepper to taste
1 lb. pizza dough
3 tbsp. grated Pecorino Romano cheese
Preheat oven to 450°F. Stretch the pizza dough to cover a greased cookie sheet. Dough should be fairly thick (about 3/4 inch). Allow the dough to rise a bit while the sauce is cooking. Heat a saucepan on medium, add the olive oil and garlic, and sauté until the garlic is just golden. Add crushed tomatoes and oregano. Cook until the sauce is thickened, about 15-20 minutes. Cool the sauce to room temperature. Top the pizza dough with the sauce and then bake in 450°F oven for about 15-20 minutes. After removing the pie from the oven, sprinkle with the cheese. Let the pie cool to room temperature before eating.

Recipe by Frank DuRoss Jr.

for an easier way use Don Pepino pizza sauce on a pizza shell, top with grated cheese bake, cool and serve at room temperature.that's how De Iorios bakery in Utica does it. http://www.deiorios.com/

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx

Sorry if this is de-railing your thread, I just wanted to pipe in :)


Andy,

Great to hear you went to Salvatore's for your birthday and your thoughts about their pizza.  ;D Good to hear you thought it was awesome. 

I also agree that the thing about tomato pies and the different varieties.  I know that just from eating Mack's, Papa's and Joey's and the ones near Philly. 

I think I explained the two types of tomato pie in my first post on this thread.  I know about the tomato pies that are in Utica, NY from Dave going there and him explaining what they are like.  I guess there could be a lot of controversy over which is really a tomato pie.   >:D 

Thanks so much for posting your recipe for the thicker kind of tomato pie, the photo and the links.  I am sure members will be interested.  That looks delicious!  You really aren't de-railing this thread, because there are two types of tomato pies.

Norma
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Offline kramer73

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2013, 01:03:49 PM »
Thanks for your kind words, Norma!

Here are a couple of bad pics from Salvatore's.


Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2013, 01:34:43 PM »
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2013, 01:42:11 PM »
Thanks for your kind words, Norma!

Here are a couple of bad pics from Salvatore's.

Andy,

Thanks for the photos of Salvatore's pizza!  ;)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2013, 01:43:29 PM »
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D

Dave,

I guess we will learn what kind of tomato pies members like best.  I already know what type of tomato pie you like best.   :-D

Norma
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2013, 01:57:57 PM »
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2013, 02:22:24 PM »
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:

Dave,

These are the links again from my first post in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.0.html to where Bob1 brought Steve and myself a tomato pie from Joesph Corropolese Bakery and Deli.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708 and when Steve and I went to Marchiano's Bakery for a tomato pie in Roxborough-Manayunk.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948   They look like the kind of tomato pie you like.  :-D The kind of tomato pie you like is made also in many places near Philly.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2013, 06:56:21 PM »
I decided to make two batches of dough somewhat in the lines that Joe Kelly told me to try at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg256601.html#msg256601  for a tomato pie dough with a higher gluten flour, but I really don't like lower hydration doughs with a water amount of 55%.  I also didn't like the percentage of salt Joe told me to try.  The formulation I used in in the one photo and the only thing I did differently for the two batches was to use vegetable oil in one batch and olive oil in the other batch.  I have always wanted to compare two doughs side by side to see if olive oil makes any differences in the final bake, even though I read here on the forum that it really should not matter and I also have tried both oils in doughs. 

I never mixed in bigger mixers like a 40 qt. or an 80 qt. mixer and really don't know how my 20 qt. Hobart mixer compares to the bigger mixers in mixing ingredients.  I have watched my Kitchen Aid mixer though in how it mixes dough.  I used the delayed oil method again.  I really watched these two mixes and how long it takes for the dough to mix first before the oil is added.  I also timed how long it took for all the oil to become incorporated into the dough.  I didn't take any photos of the first mix, but did take photos of those dough balls.  The photos are the flour I used this time, which was Kyrol, the formulation used for both doughs, what the ingredients look like before being mixed (without a photo of the water).  How the sugar, IDY and kosher salt was put on top of the flour after the water was added first to the mixer bowl.  The next photo was after those ingredients were mixed for 3 minutes (that is how long it took all the flour to be incorporated), then how the dough looks when it is sloshing around in the oil after it was drizzled in on the side of the mixer bowl.  Both doughs took another 5 minutes of mixing to be able to incorporate all of the oil.  The dough can be seen on the bench and how rough it looks.  The stretchy dough on top of the dough batch was the small piece of leftover dough from the previous batch.  I showed this before in another thread, but dough does get very stretchy in a short amount of time if it is left alone.  The final dough temperature was next and then the dough balls from the second batch.  The last photo is of the dough balls in the plastic bags. 

I sure don't know how I could do these mixes any faster because the oil needs to be incorporated into the dough.  To me, this seems like a fairly long mix when the two mix times are added together, but then a decent amount of oil was added.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2013, 06:59:20 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2013, 07:00:30 PM »
Norma
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Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 01:42:59 AM »
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

 

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2013, 01:22:35 PM »
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

Tim,

I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want.  If those things fail, I guess that will be the end of this thread.  Pizza dough is complicated for me and when I think I have one thing figured out another thing crops up that I don't understand. 

To answer you questions I use whatever temperature of water I think I need for the humidity and temperature at market, because the temperatures and humidity fluctuate so much.  I also do the same thing at home when making dough, but at home the temperatures don't fluctuate as much.  I  know the way I do that isn't the best and doesn't accurately work out all the time, but most of the time I am near my desired final dough temperature.  That is something that is just learned from making so many doughs in many ambient temperatures.  To give you a few examples if the humidity is very dry my scaled doughs before balling can dry out on the top before I get them all balled and that isn't really a long time that it takes me to do that.  Fans also don't help and can make the dough dry before balling.  If the ambient temperatures are really warm (around in the 90's) then the dough can also start to ferment until I have one batch of dough cut, scaled, balled and oiled.  It is a tricky process to get everything right and I still struggle as what to do sometimes.  I don't let the dough sit at all before balling.  I also find it interesting how the dough gets very stretchy when just sitting from one batch to the next too.

Thanks for telling about your experiment using two oils to oil your dough balls.   I wonder why the dough ball coated with vegetable oil seemed a little lighter.

Norma
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Offline petef

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 01:20:02 AM »
I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want. 

Norma, is the target dough you are trying to replicate same as Joeys Pizza?

I still have some frozen slices of Joey's pizza and I've been eating it for the past week from frozen leftovers. It's like no other pizza crust I've ever had. It's light, very tender, and is quite resistant to burning when reheating over and open flame. First I microwave it to warm it back up. Then I place it on a hand held wire grill and hold it a few inches over the open flame of my stovetop which makes the bottom crisp as fresh baked. Any ideas on what gives the dough those properties? Do you think the dough is heavily bromated?

---pete---

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 01:39:11 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especailly when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 08:51:44 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especially when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim

Tim,

There are methods posted here on the forum of how to get a desired final dough temperature that would give more accurate results by Peter, Tom Lehmann and other members, but with me having a different temperatures and humidity at market every week it would be too much trouble for me to use that method all the time, or either I am too lazy to use those methods.  That is why I don't use the methods posted here on the forum.  I don't think most pizza operators (unless they are outside) have to deal with so many different temperature and humidities.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 08:57:15 AM »
I have been thinking over what I might be doing wrong and what my limitations are even if I have a Baker's Pride oven and a 20 qt. Hobart mixer to use.  Scott r's post at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846 came to mind in what he said about a very long mixed dough and definitely made with a high gluten flour.  The rest of what he commented on that post also made more sense to me now than when he posted those comments.  I didn't think my smaller Hobart mixer had that many limitations, but after thinking it over I don't really think my attempts can be anything in the crust like a Joey's pizza.  I sure don't have a bigger Hobart mixer to try out that is fully loaded.  My mixer isn't really all of the problem though and since Mack's and Joey's uses Rotoflex ovens, my Baker's Pride is really no match for a pizza that I would like to create and I really don't think I will be able to do that in the end, or after trying many times.

I already see what my limitations are in my mixer and oven.  Although Mack's and Marcua's (now Joey's) both used deck ovens at one time, I can also see the limitations in the countertop oven I use for these attempts.  If I recall right Mack's deck ovens did have a higher head space than mine does.  I recall when I watched at Pizza Brain how those much bigger ovens (with a lot higher head space than mine) baked those pizzas so good even when they were baked a fairly long while with many pizzas on the same deck at the same time.  I guess I really don't understand enough about ovens and mixers even though I try to understand.  To add to what I just posted above, I am not the best person to try new dough formulations to see what happens.  I think trying new formulations just adds to the confusion of what to try, or what not to try when the attempts don’t go well.   

My two batches of dough balls almost overfermented until Tuesday morning when I got to market.  I still have no idea why that happened when I thought the dough was scaled, balled and oiled in a reasonable time.  I mentioned before that I am having problems with the new bag of IDY and my dough balls wanting to overferment until the next day and mentioned I never saw this happen when a new bag of yeast was opened.  I also thought my final dough temperatures were okay.  As can be seen in the one photo my pizza prep fridge is rather cold.  All of the dough balls were fairly hard to open too.  I sure don't know why that happened either, when I used the delayed method of mixing the oil in.  The dough balls almost seemed like they were reballed in opening them, but they sure weren’t reballed.  As the day went on the dough balls sure weren't easier to open either.  The photos of the attempted Tomato Pie dough balls and the Detroit style dough balls were taken fairly early in the morning.  I don't think I could have mixed this dough any faster in my mixer, because it took the first 3 minutes for all of the flour to be incorporated into the flour.  It makes me wonder more how pizzerias can mix so long and have good doughs that work well to make their pizzas, even if my mixing order or times might not have been right. 

These are a few photos of the dough balls and final pizzas.  Although the pizzas were good in my opinion, the rim crust and bottom crust weren't anything like Joey's.  I guess I am just getting frustrated in trying to make a good Tomato Pie even though I did also try on the Mack's thread.  I am not sure of what to try next, but I don’t want anymore dough balls that are hard to open if I can help it.  When Steve and I are busy, it just adds more work in getting pizzas made.  I think I am moving back instead of moving forward in my attempts for a Tomato Pie.  My customers liked the pizzas made with these dough balls, but I am not happy with them.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 09:01:36 AM »
Edit:  I forgot to mention the bake times on the pizzas on Tuesday were around 6 minutes, or a little longer.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:20:00 AM by norma427 »
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