Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 68656 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2013, 09:53:57 AM »
Since I have been having problems with my dough balls overfermenting, or almost overfermenting and the dough balls being hard to open I am trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong.  I thought my final dough temperatures were okay last Monday and the dough felt okay and balled okay.  I also have been wondering how much differently a 20 qt. Hobart mixer mixes than a larger Hobart mixer and how larger Hobart mixers seem to mix better for longer periods of time and their doughs then are okay after thinking over scott r's post that I referenced before.

I decided to ask Joe Kelley when I was emailing him this week about the GM Neapolitan flour what my problems might be and if a bigger Hobart mixers really mixes that much differently than my smaller Hobart mixer.  Joe first told me a larger and fully loaded mixer allows for more consistency in doughs and said I could do a longer mix that helps all the ingredients fully incorporate.  However, I don’t think that is the issue that is causing the difficult to work with dough balls you are experiencing. 

Joe asked me this:  Also, to recap your process, you waited until the dough had been mixing for roughly 1-2 minutes before adding the oil and then how long did you mix after pouring the oil?  Did the consistency of the dough look different than normal when you pulled from the bowl?  I then told Joe how I mixed my dough batches and for how long and the dough looked normal to me when I pulled it from the mixer bowl.  This is what Joe then told me:  That is odd how the Kyrol came out, from what you are saying below I think you are mixing the dough exactly how you should be and an ending dough temperature of 79.6 degrees is ideal.  The only thing I can think of is that you potentially received product that may have been off spec or was not stored correctly at one point in time, it happens occasionally in the flour world.  Other than that I’m not sure.  I did tell Joe I had the Kyrol flour for awhile and thought I would just try it.  Joe said my dough formulation looked okay.

Joe then said this: 
It’s difficult to replicate mixing 100 lbs of flour at one time in a 20 quart mixer, however, I would just focus on being consistent, keep on measuring dough temperatures, use the same ingredients and watch mixing times so that you do not over or under develop dough.  I am biased but I think some of the variables you are having with your dough could be due to the flour that you are using. 

I think I found out there is no way my 20 qt. Hobart mixer can mix like a bigger Hobart mixer.  I had thought it could mix dough well, but it sure can't mix like a larger Hobart mixer.  I decided to change to a different flour for this coming week and I am also going to try to lower the amount of IDY. 

Can anyone suggest what amount of IDY I should try for a one day cold ferment if I have a decent final dough temperature?  I am going to mix the same with the new flour and use the same formulation I used last week. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline RockyMountainPie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Colorado
  • I Knead Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2013, 01:51:27 AM »
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2013, 07:33:59 AM »
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?

Hi Tim,

Thanks for telling me that you are used to adding less yeast since you live at a higher altitude in Colorado.  I didn't know that most guides say to use one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.   

I know I should not be changing more than one variable at a time, because sometimes the results can become confusing.  I have been having problems with my dough balls wanting to overferment, or almost overfermenting since I opened up that new package of IDY.  I can't figure that out, but Steve and I were talking about that the past couple of weeks.  He is also having the same problems with his NY style dough balls he makes for another farmers market than I go to and his IDY is old.  I am beginning to think it is the change in weather that is making the differences in how the dough balls ferment, but don't really know.  Steve cut his IDY way back for his NY style doughs.  Last summer I did cut back the amount of IDY I used, and know that is not recommended, but it worked okay.  I was just trying to figure out how much I could cut the amount of IDY back and still have dough balls that ferment okay until the next day.  I don't recall how much I cut the IDY back last summer. 

I did like the Occident flour, but since I tasted the pizzas at Joey's that is one reason I am going to change the flour to see what happens.  I think Joey's uses All Trumps and that is the flour I am going to try on Monday.  I did try All Trumps awhile ago, but don't recall how it performed and know I probably used another formulation.  I don't think the method I am using for mixing will make the crust tough, but I will have to wait and see what happens.  I know I don't have Joey's mixer or Rotoflex oven either, so my results won't be the same.  Time will tell if I decide to go back to the Occident flour.

Norma   
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2013, 07:46:59 PM »
This is the formulation I am trying out for tomorrow with the All Trumps flour.  The two batches of dough mixed in less time than last week when using the delayed addition of the oil.  This time the flour and other ingredients were mixed with the water in 2 minutes.  It can be seen until I cut, scaled and balled all of the 15 dough balls from the first batch of dough how the leftover piece of dough already wanted to stretch better.  I used olive oil in one batch and vegetable oil in the other test batch.  Both batches of doughs had about the same final dough temperatures. 

It also can be seen that although the market temperature wasn't bad today, the humidity was fairly high and it was raining heavily.  It seems like there is one problem after another at market.  My vent was leaking again today.  I guess I will have to get that looked at again.  I think this will be about the 4th time that vent has given me problems.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2013, 07:49:21 PM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2013, 09:48:59 AM »
The test dough balls didn't overferment, or almost overferment until Tuesday morning when using less yeast in the formulation, but I do think they did ferment too much for the amount of yeast used and the final dough temperatures that I had for these two batches of dough.  I still can't figure that out why my dough balls want to ferment so much.  The first photo is some of the dough balls that were in my pizza prep fridge first thing Tuesday morning and the next photo is of one dough ball before it was warmed-up also taken first thing in the morning. 

The dough balls did open okay, and they weren't as hard to open as last week, but I still am trying to have dough balls that are easier to open. 

The rim crusts and bottom crusts seemed to brown okay when using the All Trumps flour. 

I had quite a few customers comment that the boardwalk style of pizzas I am making do taste like Grotto's pizzas.  There are more customers purchasing slices and whole pizzas since I am trying to make the boardwalk style of pizzas rather than making a regular NY style of pizza.  That is a good thing for me, but I still don't have this dough down right.  I also had a few customers tell me they are posting on their facebook page to come and try my boardwalk style pizzas.  I told those customers that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market, so if they wanted to share my facebook page for market they could.  I have to make a sign this week that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market. 

This is another thing that puzzles me in how the cheese melted this week with using the new flour.  For some reason the cheese melted better and looked better on the pizzas than before.  I sure don't know what causes that either when I am using the same amount of cheese, applying the cheese the same way and also using the same tomato sauce.

I don't know what to try next in having dough balls that are easier to open and don't know what amount of yeast to try next either.   :-\

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »
Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dhorst

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 652
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 11:21:37 AM »
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 12:17:11 PM »
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.

Diana,

Thanks for your kind comments.   :)  I think many people in our area are familiar with the Grotto's, Mack's and Manco & Manco pizzas since we don't live that far from the shore.  It takes awhile for the word to get out what kinds of pizzas I am offering at market since I am only open one day a week, but it seems like slowly more people are getting to know about what I offer.  Some new customers ask if I have a regular pizza business somewhere that they could come to, but that is out of the question for me.  I do have customers that come from an hour away for my pizzas though.  I have been working on this style of pizzas for about 3 years and I still don't have it right.  The cheese part and the sauce are okay, but the crust and dough still gives me problems. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2267
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 11:04:15 PM »
Excellent looking Pizza Norma.  What was the bake time and temp?  You said you didn't get the crust down yet.  What is it lacking?  Also what brand cheese and sauce did u use?

Nate
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 11:11:15 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline RockyMountainPie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 135
  • Location: Colorado
  • I Knead Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2013, 03:42:23 AM »
Norma,

Those pizzas look great.  I'm getting hungry.   :drool: Did you notice any difference in the olive oil vs. the vegetable oil?

--Tim

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2013, 08:31:26 AM »
Excellent looking Pizza Norma.  What was the bake time and temp?  You said you didn't get the crust down yet.  What is it lacking?  Also what brand cheese and sauce did u use?

Nate

Nate,

Thank you!  My oven temperature is lower now, but I don't have my IR gun at market to be able to measure really what it is.  I have the thermostat set at about 525 degrees F, or a little lower and the bake time was about 5 minutes.  If you want me to, I can try to remember to take my IR gun along to market this week to really see what the deck temperature is and also time some bakes.  The reasoning as to why I dialed back the temperature in my deck oven is because Joey's Pizza uses a lower bake temperature and that is the kind of crust I am trying to make.

Some of the reasons I don't think I have the crust right is because the dough balls are kind of hard to open, there is too much rim rise, or oven spring for the kind of crust I am trying to make and I would like the bottom crust to brown evenly.  I know I probably won't achieve all that I would like to, because I don't have the right kind of oven, and really don't know the dough formulation, etc.

As for the cheese it is the same cheese I posted about at Reply 1720 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg255328.html#msg255328  I would really post the brand, but know most members can't purchase that cheese that comes in the almost 45 lb. blocks.  I also use the same cheese on my Detroit style pizzas.  The cheese is a foodservice mild cheddar.  I have looked for that kind of mild cheddar for about 3 years before I finally found what I wanted.  I can say that the mild cheddar is produced in Wisconsin and I would give the brand in a PM to regular members that do post about their pizzas here on the forum.  As for the sauce I use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce doctored up.  I can post what I add to that sauce to doctor it up.  I have posted that before here on the forum. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2013, 08:33:44 AM »
Norma,

Those pizzas look great.  I'm getting hungry.   :drool: Did you notice any difference in the olive oil vs. the vegetable oil?

--Tim

Tim,

Thanks!  I didn't notice any difference in how the doughs opened or how the crust browned with either oil.  I had wanted to taste both crusts made with both oils, but became too busy to try both.  I tried the one made with olive oil.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2013, 07:40:09 PM »
My friend Trenton Bill called me today to tell me that he changed his recipe for his dough for his attempts on a Joey's Pizza crust.  He told me he achieved a crust like Joey's Pizza in his home oven baked at 500 degrees F on quarry tiles.  Bill told me the recipe he used for 3 doughs balls for 12” pizzas, but I can't convert the weights he gave me into baker's percentages to be able to try a dough ball for next Tuesday for a 17” pizza.  Bill told me he used All Trumps flour.  These are the weights Bill gave me.

All Trumps flour  16.2 ounces
IDY  3.6 grams
Regular Table Salt  4.8 grams
Sugar 4.9 grams
Olive Oil 4.4 grams

What I found interesting is that Bill used his one dough ball in 3 hrs. to make a pizza and said the dough stretched out nicely and the crust tasted like a multiple day cold ferment.  I told Bill I didn't understand how that would be possible.   :-\

This is the mixing method Trenton Bill gave me for his recipe in a Kitchen Aid mixer.  Water in mixer, add sugar and yeast, then add half of the flour and mix for about 30 seconds.  Next let the dough sit for 20 minutes, then put the salt on top of the flour and mix 5 more minutes. 

Trenton Bill didn't steer me wrong on the Detroit style pizzas I accidentally made from his other recipe, but I sure don't know about this recipe for a crust like Joey's Pizza.

I also got a nice present from Joe Kelley of General Mills today.  Joe sent me a 50 lb. bag of All Trumps flour to try out. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22301
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2013, 07:57:07 PM »
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2013, 08:03:25 PM »
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter

Peter,

I did and Trenton Bill didn't give it to me, but he just called again and said that he added 1 tablespoon of flour added to the 16.2 ounces of flour in the first mix, because the dough looked too sticky.  He told me he wanted to be accurate in what he told me, so that is why he called me again.  He also told me he mixed on speed 2 both times.  I will call Bill again and get this straightened out about the water amount. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2013, 08:10:39 PM »
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter

Peter,

Trenton Bill just told me he used exactly 11 ounces of water for the 3 dough balls for the 12" pizzas.  Sorry for the confusion.  :-[   Bill was so excited when he talked to me about the crust that he achieved that neither of us thought about the water amount.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22301
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2013, 08:57:38 PM »
Norma,

This is what Trenton Bill's dough formulation looks like, for three dough balls and for a single dough ball, including the extra tablespoon of All Trumps flour:

Dough for Three Pizzas
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
466.67 g  |  16.46 oz | 1.03 lbs
311.85 g  |  11 oz | 0.69 lbs
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.4 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
796.22 g | 28.09 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for 3 dough balls for 12" pizzas; thickness factor = (28.09/3)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Dough for One Pizza
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
155.56 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.2 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.6 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
265.41 g | 9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for one dough ball for a 12" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22453
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2013, 10:06:53 PM »
Norma,

This is what Trenton Bill's dough formulation looks like, for three dough balls and for a single dough ball, including the extra tablespoon of All Trumps flour:

Dough for Three Pizzas
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
466.67 g  |  16.46 oz | 1.03 lbs
311.85 g  |  11 oz | 0.69 lbs
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.4 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
796.22 g | 28.09 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for 3 dough balls for 12" pizzas; thickness factor = (28.09/3)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Dough for One Pizza
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
155.56 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.2 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.6 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
265.41 g | 9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for one dough ball for a 12" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for doing the calculations for Trenton Bills dough.  I am going to give him the link to what you posted.  I think his recipe is a pretty high hydration dough and really don't think enough salt was added.  The TF looks okay.  Do you really think the dough would be ready in 3 hours to open a dough ball and make a pizza, unless the dough ball was left at room temperature to ferment.  I really don't know what Trenton's Bill's final dough temperature was either, but will ask him if he takes a final dough temperature.  I didn't think to ask Trenton Bill if he left the dough ball out at room temperature or not. 

I told Trenton Bill he should use the dough calculations tools so I would have a better idea of what he is trying, but I guess he is old-fashioned and just tries doughs.  Trenton Bill did say he used this dough before, but really don't know if he got the same results as he did this time.  I am also not sure if he used more yeast this time or not.  Bill usually uses a 2-3 day cold ferment for his doughs. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

pizzapan