Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 92421 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2013, 11:43:45 AM »
Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
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Offline dhorst

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2013, 12:09:05 PM »
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."

Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2013, 12:54:57 PM »

Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and


Diana,

My daughter takes after her father's side of the family I guess in genes for gaining weight.  Although she doesn't eat anything differently than I do and actually eats more fruits and and other healthier foods than I do and even exercises a lot more than I do, she still has had problems most of her life (except when she was young) keeping weight off.  She doesn't seem to mind not eating bread or pizzas, but she does have lots of other food options to choose from. 

The reason I stay away from bread and really don't eat much at home or away from home is because I feel I already eat enough pizzas. 

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2013, 01:36:00 PM »
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!
Diana,
Have you ever had a Chicago Italian Beef sandwich. I'm wondering if you are familiar with the type of roll they use. Most restaurants use rolls from either Turano or Gonella bakeries. They are unique in that the outside surface has an almost waxy surface...this allows the sandwich to hold together even if a person orders a sandwich "dipped"(submerged in the juice). http://www.turano.com/
Sure wish I had a recipe to make these.  :chef:

Bob
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

I love how you always go heavy cheese on your pies.  Very nice pie there sir. 

Nate
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #80 on: June 16, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »
Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma

What is Bills mixing procedure?
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #81 on: June 16, 2013, 09:24:23 PM »
What is Bills mixing procedure?

Nate,

I posted Trenton Bill's mixing procedure at Reply 54 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260153.html#msg260153  Peter then did the calculations and set-forth the formulations at Reply 58 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2013, 07:44:34 AM »
My ex-husband came to my pizza stand for the better part of yesterday.  He was in our area to visit close relatives for a few days.  He could not believe how busy a small pizza stand is on a rainy day.  He apologized different times for all of the trouble he gave me when we were married and said if he could go back years he sure would have been different.  He said he wished now that we could have stayed married.  We would have soon been married for 50 years if he would not have been such a character.  How time changes people.  :-D  My ex-husband said it was okay if I posted his picture on the forum.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2013, 08:24:44 AM »
I tried Trenton Bills recipe that he gave me and Peter converted to baker's percentages.  I did change the yeast amount, the salt amount, the pizza size and also the TF.  I mixed Trenton Bill's dough later Monday night.  I also used the All Trumps flour like Bill did.

The pizza was good and I thought it was interesting how different the pizza was when using Trenton Bills recipe.  The bottom crust browned differently in my opinion than the pies I have been making.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  Steve and I each had two slices of this pizza.  Another thing I found interesting is on the reheat of the second slice is how crisp the bottom of the slice became.  There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:29:00 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 08:28:07 AM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 08:30:50 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 08:41:50 AM »
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924, I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2013, 09:09:16 AM »
There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2013, 09:24:19 AM »
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924, I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter

Peter,

That was my error of adding the 0 right behind the decimal point, and no I did not correct it.  I thought when I mixed that dough that sure was a small amount of olive oil, but I was tired when I mixed that dough so didn't give it another thought on that I might have made an error in putting that number into the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2013, 09:37:59 AM »
Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).

Scott,

Thanks for posting what contributes to chew in a pizza rim and also for posting how your toughest crusts have been from using 67% hydration and using the All Trumps flour.  I can understand that the 20 minute rest period of the batter like dough does ramp up the gluten development.  I also could not mix with my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the amount of flour and water wasn't enough.  I think my flat beater also contributed to the chew.  I did use the flat beater for all of the mix. 

I really don't know how much oil Trenton Pies are suppose to have either.  That is one thing I have continued to play with.  I mixed another two different batches of dough on Monday and was almost satisfied how they turned out yesterday when they were baked into pizzas.  I don't like a lot of chew either in a pizza rim.  So far using the All Trumps, without including Trenton Bill's recipe, the crust isn't chewy.

I know I still have experimenting to do with what makes the best Trenton Pie crust and do know I might never really find it.  I am still trying to make a crust like Joey's Pizza. 

The chewy rim was the main criticism of this pizza. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #90 on: June 19, 2013, 09:45:55 AM »
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #91 on: June 19, 2013, 10:01:57 AM »
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?

Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #92 on: June 19, 2013, 10:10:38 AM »
Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma

Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #93 on: June 19, 2013, 10:42:56 AM »
Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.

Scott,

Thanks for telling me you think the higher hydration was the primary culprit for the chewier crust.  I am not a big fan of cold pizza either.  I only had that one slice of pizza at Jim Lahey's Sullivan Street Bakery cold that I really liked.  Don't you also think the way I mixed with the flat beater also had something to do with the chewiness?   I have to ask Trenton Bill how chewy his pizza was.  Joey's Pizza isn't chewy at all and for all I know Joey's does used All Trumps.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2013, 01:23:04 PM »
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #95 on: June 19, 2013, 09:05:14 PM »
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.

Lol Scott I sure didn't know you love cold pizza.   ;D  I would have to do another experiment with the right amount of olive oil added to Trenton Bill's recipe and would also have to mix less to see if I got the same chewiness again.  Different pizza doughs do make me think sometimes and sometimes I can't be sure of what the results would be.  That is why I keep experimenting.  :-D

Thanks for posting that you think the 67% and AT was the problem of the chewiness.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #96 on: June 19, 2013, 09:32:27 PM »
I am not sure, but think my crusts getting closer to a Joey's pizza.  I dropped the amount of yeast, sugar and oil in two batches, but both batches of dough were not exactly the same in the amounts of ingredients used.  Both batches worked out good though.  My dough balls were not overfermented until Tuesday morning and the dough balls opened okay.  I didn't have time to take a lot of photos, but these are two of the pizzas and the dough balls in the morning.

Norma
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 07:45:56 PM »
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 07:58:18 PM »
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2013, 10:07:03 PM »
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)

Thanks, and yep of course. I have no plans to cook pizza in my oven again.