Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 58266 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #60 on: June 15, 2013, 11:29:36 AM »
Peter,

Just to let you know that I did talk to Trenton Bill this morning two times and he said he did let his dough ball sit out at room temperature (about 70-71 degrees F) to room temperature ferment.  I asked him to look at the 2 other dough balls he is now cold fermenting to tell me what they looked like.  He said they are rising nicely.  I told Bill I don't think his recipe will work out for me because of using that amount of yeast and also the higher hydration.  Bill asked me why I couldn't use that amount of yeast and the higher hydration at market.  I told Bill that higher hydration doughs are harder for me to work with at market, because sometimes the dressed pizzas want to stick to the peel.  I won't get into what all we discussed, but Bill and I agree to disagree on many things related to doughs, including the salt amount he used and what to use on a pizza peel as flour.  Bill told me that is what he likes about me that I speak my mind and I am different than most women he has met.  :-D  I asked Bill how I am going to use that amount of yeast in a dough formulation when I am now using a lot less yeast for a one day cold ferment.  Bill did tell me he looked at your link to where you posted his dough formulation you converted to baker's percents and said he saw what I posted in the next reply. 

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #61 on: June 15, 2013, 01:12:11 PM »
Norma,

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #62 on: June 15, 2013, 01:27:21 PM »
I'd like to whip one of these up for tonight's pizza. Would you all like me to time it for Trenton Bill's 3 hr. window?

Bob
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #63 on: June 15, 2013, 01:39:37 PM »
Norma,

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that the hydration (plus the amount of oil) and the higher amount of IDY would ferment quite nicely over roughly a 3 hour period at room temperature and would also be able to form the skin with ease.  Trenton Bill will be glad to hear that.   

I will make a test dough using Trenton Bills recipe for this coming Tuesday since you did the calculations.  Mine with be a 17” pizza though. 

Bill and I are always battering back and forth in anything about pizzas, but one thing we both agree on is that we do like pizzas.  Time will tell what I think of Trenton Bill's recipe.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #64 on: June 15, 2013, 01:41:11 PM »
I'd like to whip one of these up for tonight's pizza. Would you all like me to time it for Trenton Bill's 3 hr. window?

Bob


Bob,

Yep, whip it up and let us know about the time and also what you think of the taste of the crust.  8)

Norma
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Offline dhorst

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #65 on: June 15, 2013, 08:08:43 PM »
Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with?  I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does.  Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra.  I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #66 on: June 15, 2013, 09:58:52 PM »
Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with?  I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does.  Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra.  I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...


Diana,

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it.  I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour.  I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel.  Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

The Mellow Mushroom flour release agent is cornmeal as I posted at Reply 1251 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788 and Peter also posted on that thread is you use the search feature on that thread.  A few times I tried other flours.  Sometimes at Steve's home for his WFO we just use regular flours as a release agent. 

Soon I will be trying the Dustinator like Papa John's uses that Peter posted about at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046 

You might want to look what Tom Lehmann recommends at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800 and from Tom's other posts on peel flour. 

If you search what other members use as peel flour you might see that different members have different preferences for what peel flours work for them. 

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2013, 10:41:41 PM »
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 09:51:35 AM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #68 on: June 15, 2013, 11:55:03 PM »
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough.  I am glad you liked the pizza.  Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust?  I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted.  :P I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat.  What kind of flour did you use?  Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned.  I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim.  Your mozzarella looks good too.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2013, 10:03:16 AM »
Bob,

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough.  I am glad you liked the pizza.  Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust?  I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted.  :P I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat.  What kind of flour did you use?  Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned.  I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim.  Your mozzarella looks good too.

Norma
Norma,
To be honest; the salt is the one thing I changed from the formula Peter gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164.

Instead of .29 t salt I used .50...half a teaspoon. I think it could probably still take a bit more if one wanted before becoming tough as this was a pretty tender dough.

I used All Trumps flour.   Yes, I went pretty heavy with the cheese. It was equal parts Trader Joe's whole milk, Stella LM/PS, and Stella smoked provo.

Bob
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2013, 10:12:52 AM »
Norma,
To be honest; the salt is the one thing I changed from the formula Peter gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164.

Instead of .29 t salt I used .50...half a teaspoon. I think it could probably still take a bit more if one wanted before becoming tough as this was a pretty tender dough.

I used All Trumps flour.   Yes, I went pretty heavy with the cheese. It was equal parts Trader Joe's whole milk, Stella LM/PS, and Stella smoked provo.

Bob


Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2013, 10:29:48 AM »
Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma
Norma,
I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.
This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

Bob
 
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Offline dhorst

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2013, 10:34:51 AM »
Diana,

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it.  I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour.  I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel.  Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

The Mellow Mushroom flour release agent is cornmeal as I posted at Reply 1251 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788 and Peter also posted on that thread is you use the search feature on that thread.  A few times I tried other flours.  Sometimes at Steve's home for his WFO we just use regular flours as a release agent. 

Soon I will be trying the Dustinator like Papa John's uses that Peter posted about at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046 

You might want to look what Tom Lehmann recommends at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800 and from Tom's other posts on peel flour. 

If you search what other members use as peel flour you might see that different members have different preferences for what peel flours work for them. 

Norma


Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel.  I also like rice flour for dusting bread.  Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour?  It has a very nice moist crumb.  Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2013, 10:49:55 AM »
Norma,
I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.
This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

Bob

Bob,

That's okay that you didn't use Bill's mixing methods.  I just wanted to clarify what methods you used.  I am glad you liked it enough to try it again.  Nothing wrong with upping the TF to make it a little thicker.  ;)

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2013, 10:57:27 AM »
Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel.  I also like rice flour for dusting bread.  Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour?  It has a very nice moist crumb.  Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.

Diana,

It is interesting to hear you also do use rice flour from time to time as a dusting flour.  I never tried rice flour for dusting bread.  I never made any bread with some of the flour being rice flour either.  Interesting that rice flour and Occident flour give a very nice moist crumb.  Your creations look delicious!   8)

I would try to make more breads, but I play around with pizzas way too much and then I don't get to play around with breads as much as I would like to.  I am the only one that would eat the bread.  My daughter has been on a diet and bread and pizza are two things she can't eat.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2013, 11:43:45 AM »
Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2013, 12:09:05 PM »
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."

Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2013, 12:54:57 PM »

Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and


Diana,

My daughter takes after her father's side of the family I guess in genes for gaining weight.  Although she doesn't eat anything differently than I do and actually eats more fruits and and other healthier foods than I do and even exercises a lot more than I do, she still has had problems most of her life (except when she was young) keeping weight off.  She doesn't seem to mind not eating bread or pizzas, but she does have lots of other food options to choose from. 

The reason I stay away from bread and really don't eat much at home or away from home is because I feel I already eat enough pizzas. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #78 on: June 16, 2013, 01:36:00 PM »
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!
Diana,
Have you ever had a Chicago Italian Beef sandwich. I'm wondering if you are familiar with the type of roll they use. Most restaurants use rolls from either Turano or Gonella bakeries. They are unique in that the outside surface has an almost waxy surface...this allows the sandwich to hold together even if a person orders a sandwich "dipped"(submerged in the juice). http://www.turano.com/
Sure wish I had a recipe to make these.  :chef:

Bob
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #79 on: June 16, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

I love how you always go heavy cheese on your pies.  Very nice pie there sir. 

Nate
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