Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 57741 times)

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Offline Hobbs

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #160 on: August 12, 2013, 03:43:25 PM »
Very good looking pies Norma...

I've always been a fan of Three Brothers pizza in Seaside as far as boardwalk pizza...I wasn't partial to Marucas. But when it comes to tomato pies..the end all, be all IMO is DeLorenzos... That's my personal mission right now

Next is trying to nail Sally's New Haven, CT "Apizza" style...which for me is impossible with my electric oven.


Offline scott123

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #161 on: August 12, 2013, 03:52:15 PM »
Next is trying to nail Sally's New Haven, CT "Apizza" style...which for me is impossible with my electric oven.


I see, from another of your posts, that your oven goes to 550.  As long as the broiler is in the main compartment and not a separate drawer, you can achieve NH style with 1/2" steel.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23827.msg241924.html#msg241924

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #162 on: August 12, 2013, 06:22:29 PM »
Very good looking pies Norma...

I've always been a fan of Three Brothers pizza in Seaside as far as boardwalk pizza...I wasn't partial to Marucas. But when it comes to tomato pies..the end all, be all IMO is DeLorenzos... That's my personal mission right now



Hobbs,

Thanks!  I never tasted Three Brothers pizza in Seaside.  I was not partial to Marucas after I tasted it either.  I didn't get to try DeLorenzos pizzas when I was in Trenton, NJ, but I really liked Joey's pizza.  I did a review at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html with Joey's pizzas in that thread.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #163 on: August 12, 2013, 06:23:39 PM »
I just talked to Trenton Bill and what he recalls about DeLorenzo sauce was that it was made with 6-in-1's and Red Pack whole tomatoes American style, not the Red Pack Italian style.  He also said that maybe a little sugar is used in the sauce, but no herbs.  Bill also said that the Maggio mozzarella used to be used, but he doesn't know what DeLorenzo's uses now.

Norma
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Offline BenLee

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2013, 09:02:52 PM »
I just talked to Trenton Bill and what he recalls about DeLorenzo sauce was that it was made with 6-in-1's and Red Pack whole tomatoes American style, not the Red Pack Italian style.  He also said that maybe a little sugar is used in the sauce, but no herbs.  Bill also said that the Maggio mozzarella used to be used, but he doesn't know what DeLorenzo's uses now.

Norma

I remember it tasting like Maggio Mozzarella, but we saw Sargento bags at Hudson ave one day.

Offline BenLee

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #165 on: August 12, 2013, 09:06:43 PM »
Pete-zza,

my guess would be they just hand crush the Red Pack into the 6 in 1.  I wouldn't doubt about a little sugar being added because the tomatoes always had a unique sweetness that exceeded what you would expect from Red pack.  Although, California tomatoes like 6 in 1 are pretty sweet in their own right so its a toss up.  Obviously, they have to add salt.  I would say that they don't do any herbs or garlic powder or anything like that.  The tomatoes look very bright and pure.

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #166 on: August 12, 2013, 09:39:17 PM »

Pete,

The dough calculation tools here on the forum are not hard to use.  If you take the first dough formulation Paul posted at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219 and use a size of a 14” pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool, or the Lehmann dough calculation tool this is what you will get. 

What Paul set forth for me for a 17.5” pizza.
First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%):    198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08 

This is using the Lehmann dough calculation tool for a 14” pizza at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html  but you can also use the expanded dough calculation tool at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html

Flour (100%):                 211.56 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
Water (60.1%):                 127.15 g  |  4.48 oz | 0.28 lbs
IDY (.25%):                     0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                       3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Oil (2.04%):                     4.32 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):                     1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (165.03%):    349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.08

When you want to make a different size pizza than is given in anyones formulation all you have to do is put all of the numbers in the dough calculation tool that are given, except the pizza size.  All depending on how long you might want to cold ferment your dough ball you might need to up that amount of IDY.

You might want to note the bowl residue compensation for any dough that might be left in the bowl or on the dough hook.  I usually use a bowl residue compensation.

What style of pizza do you want me make in your BS?  Do you want more of a NY style pizza or do you want to make a Neapolitan style pizza.

Norma


Thank you for your assistance Norma.  You've made the dough calculators a bit less intimidating for me.

I am constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  In my black stone I will be attempting NY style and Neapolitan.  I am a large fan of the Neapolitan bakes, but I do like to make pizza for my folks, and they are more keen on NY style bakes.  Although I think if they were having NP pizzas that were made by a true craftsman and not simply what I'm able to produce that they may change their mind. 

With your tomato pie recipe I'm planning on staying true to form and keeping it kind of NY style.

Although I am curious what cheese blend you use for this style of pizza.

I will look back on this thread and determine what flour is being used most commonly.  I have access to AP flour, Bread flour, and 00 currently.  I do not know anyplace locally where I'd be able to purchase high gluten flour and would likely have to order that online.

Pete

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #167 on: August 12, 2013, 10:20:33 PM »
I remember it tasting like Maggio Mozzarella, but we saw Sargento bags at Hudson ave one day.

BenLee,

I haven't ever tasted Maggio or Sargento mozzarella, so if I ever get to try Delorenzo's pizza someday, I would have no idea of what mozzarella they use.  As Peter posted they might have changed their cheese.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #168 on: August 12, 2013, 10:35:17 PM »
Thank you for your assistance Norma.  You've made the dough calculators a bit less intimidating for me.

I am constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  :-D  In my black stone I will be attempting NY style and Neapolitan.  I am a large fan of the Neapolitan bakes, but I do like to make pizza for my folks, and they are more keen on NY style bakes.  Although I think if they were having NP pizzas that were made by a true craftsman and not simply what I'm able to produce that they may change their mind. 

With your tomato pie recipe I'm planning on staying true to form and keeping it kind of NY style.

Although I am curious what cheese blend you use for this style of pizza.

I will look back on this thread and determine what flour is being used most commonly.  I have access to AP flour, Bread flour, and 00 currently.  I do not know anyplace locally where I'd be able to purchase high gluten flour and would likely have to order that online.

Pete


Pete,

Your welcome anytime.  The dough calculators really aren't intimidating after you play around with them a little.  I am not good with math, so since I have learned to use the dough calculators they have been a great help to me.  I changed the dough formulation I used for the NY style pizza last week for the BS to the one I used yesterday to make a pizza in the BS.  It is at Reply 122 if you are interested (second formulation down in that post).  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.msg272074.html#msg272074

I guess you are like me if you are constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  I am a huge fan of Neapolitan pizzas too, but only my mother likes Neapolitan pizza in our family.  It will be interesting if your family members changes their minds about Neapolitan pizza once you make some.  So far the rest of my family won't budge from NY style.   

I use a mild white cheddar on this type of pizza, but it only comes in about 45 lb. blocks and is only available though a distributor. 

I am only using high-gluten flours on this thread.  I had meant to make a tomato pie crust with a lesser protein flour and add VWG, but life got in the way right now.  I still want to do that though. 

If you need any other help with the dough calculation tools let me know.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #169 on: August 12, 2013, 10:53:37 PM »
I had meant to make a tomato pie crust with a lesser protein flour and add VWG, but life got in the way right now.  I still want to do that though. 


Norma,
I would be very interested in hearing why it is you would like to try a weaker flour and add VWG.
I am currently experimenting with low carb pizza doughs using a flour substitute called Carbalose. Last nights dough included some VWG but I have no idea what I am doing just yet.
Just interested in why you want to use VWG, thanks.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #170 on: August 13, 2013, 06:16:50 AM »
Norma,
I would be very interested in hearing why it is you would like to try a weaker flour and add VWG.
I am currently experimenting with low carb pizza doughs using a flour substitute called Carbalose. Last nights dough included some VWG but I have no idea what I am doing just yet.
Just interested in why you want to use VWG, thanks.


Bob,

The reason I posted I wanted to make a tomato pie dough with a lower protein flour and VWG is because I want the dough and crust to be something like a tomato pie is for home pizza makers that don't have access to higher gluten flours (around 14%) like I do in case they might want to try a dough for a tomato pie. 

If you look at Peter's post at Reply 1506 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215139.html#msg215139 he explains how much Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten to add to KABF to get a total protein content of 14.0%.  You will also see by increasing the amount of IDY to 0.95 grams I changed the total dough formulation.  You can also see from that post that November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator needs to be used.

When I have time I will try to change what I am doing with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to reflect what I am now using in the formulation.  I did just change my percentage of water yesterday, but that has nothing to do with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  I probably will have problems figuring out a formulation for a dough with KABF and VWG for home pizza makers to use since I changed the formulation and I am making a 17.5" pizza. 

You can also see what Peter explained at Reply 1508 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215151.html#msg215151 about how a problem would arise when a member who cannot make a 18” pizza and then asks how to modify that dough formulation in the boardwalk thread.

Not all members like VWG, but I have no problems with it.

I hope you can get a formulation figured out using Carbalose and VWG.  VWG can only be added to a certain point and I sure don't know anything about how much VWG can be added to Carbalose.  Good luck in figuring out a formulation for pizza dough using Carbalose and VWG.  ;)   

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #171 on: August 13, 2013, 08:13:34 AM »
Norma,

If you conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html using Maggio as the search term, you will get several hits. Based on those posts, it does indeed seem clear that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese. That cheese was shredded and came in unmarked bags. It was later reported, at Reply 115 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024, that the Maggio cheese was replaced by another cheese because of inconsistency problems. The Sargento cheese was mentioned, and a couple of us speculated that the new cheese was Grande cheese. Looking back now, I am not sure that the replacement cheese was Grande cheese only because Grande does not ordinarily use unmarked shredded cheese bags.

As can be seen at http://www.maggiocheese.com/ , Maggio cheese products still exist. They are sold at retail in a multi-state area that includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html). However, as was previously reported in the Trenton thread, Maggio's was sold in 1998 to Crowley Foods. At the time, Maggio had been using a New Jersey company to make their cheese under contract, as was reported in the article at http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary. I would be surprised if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Mazzio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used. One can see the shredded cheese that De Lorenzo's now uses in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm and, on a pizza, in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm.

It will also be noted that Maggio's has a foodservice division. However, if one looks at the products at http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html, it will be seen that the only bagged mozzarella cheese is Part Skim Shredded Mozz, in 5-lb bags. From what I recall, De Lorenzo's was said to be using a pre-shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese.

For your purposes in making tomato pies, there is no need to try to emulate the De Lorenzo's tomato pies. However, the De Lorenzo tomato pies might serve as a style to consider in your efforts to make your version, particularly with respect to the types of the pizza sauce and cheese emblematic of that style.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #172 on: August 14, 2013, 10:12:22 PM »
I did a few experiments with the Marsal Pizza dough mold http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=45 yesterday to see if my rim crust would look different after it was baked, but in my opinion the rim crust didn't look any different than usual.  The skin seemed easier to open though.  I guess the way the toppings are applied make the rim crust look about the same.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #173 on: August 14, 2013, 10:38:36 PM »
Norma,

If you conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html using Maggio as the search term, you will get several hits. Based on those posts, it does indeed seem clear that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese. That cheese was shredded and came in unmarked bags. It was later reported, at Reply 115 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024, that the Maggio cheese was replaced by another cheese because of inconsistency problems. The Sargento cheese was mentioned, and a couple of us speculated that the new cheese was Grande cheese. Looking back now, I am not sure that the replacement cheese was Grande cheese only because Grande does not ordinarily use unmarked shredded cheese bags.

As can be seen at http://www.maggiocheese.com/ , Maggio cheese products still exist. They are sold at retail in a multi-state area that includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html). However, as was previously reported in the Trenton thread, Maggio's was sold in 1998 to Crowley Foods. At the time, Maggio had been using a New Jersey company to make their cheese under contract, as was reported in the article at http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary. I would be surprised if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Mazzio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used. One can see the shredded cheese that De Lorenzo's now uses in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm and, on a pizza, in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm.

It will also be noted that Maggio's has a foodservice division. However, if one looks at the products at http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html, it will be seen that the only bagged mozzarella cheese is Part Skim Shredded Mozz, in 5-lb bags. From what I recall, De Lorenzo's was said to be using a pre-shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese.

For your purposes in making tomato pies, there is no need to try to emulate the De Lorenzo's tomato pies. However, the De Lorenzo tomato pies might serve as a style to consider in your efforts to make your version, particularly with respect to the types of the pizza sauce and cheese emblematic of that style.

Peter


Peter,

I did conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread using Maggio as the search term and saw what was posted.  I see that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese.  I see that Sargento cheese was mentioned also. 

Thanks for the link to show where to purchase Maggio mozzarella.  I have to look at Giant and Weis supermarkets to see if I find the Maggio mozzarella.  I don't recall that I saw any Maggio mozzarella at the IGA supermarket I go to sometimes.  I also doubt if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Maggio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used.  Thanks for the links to the photos of what the shredded cheese looked like at De Lorenzo's.  I see under the foodservice division that Maggio only sells Part Skim shredded mozzarella in a 5 lb. Bag.   

Do you think I should try an experiment with one of your attempts at a clone De Lorenzo's dough to see what I think of it?  If you do, what would be your favorite dough formulation to try.  Maybe I would like a De Lorenzo's crust better than what I am making now.  Who knows what I like best at this point in time.  I keep changing my mind.  I told Steve on Tuesday that I had said I like the pizzas in the BS the best, but after tasting the boardwalk style of pizzas Tuesday I changed my mind again.  I told Steve the NY style pizzas I made it the BS last week kind of reminded me of the NY style pizzas Steve makes in his WFO in his Airstream.  Steve at least understands me and how changeable I am.   :-D

I might be going to the 9th St. Italian Market in Philly this coming Saturday and might look for some Maggio mozzarella, or some Sargento cheese there .  I think I have some 6-in-1's tomato sauce and some Red Pack tomatoes at home. 

I really only would know though if my attempt would be anything like De Lorenzo's pizza if I get to Trenton again.  I might plan a trip to Trenton this fall though. 

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #174 on: August 15, 2013, 08:43:30 AM »
Do you think I should try an experiment with one of your attempts at a clone De Lorenzo's dough to see what I think of it?  If you do, what would be your favorite dough formulation to try.  Maybe I would like a De Lorenzo's crust better than what I am making now.  Who knows what I like best at this point in time.  I keep changing my mind.

Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm. De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 09:00:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #175 on: August 15, 2013, 11:24:21 AM »
I'll bet those unorthodox methods make for some really great pizza. I'm going to try some as soon as I get this low-carb thing figured out. Thanks for the links Peter!  :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2013, 12:06:01 PM »
Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm. De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter


Peter,

I do know you never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza.  I also know things have changed a lot at De Lorenzo's since you were engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project.  I did try to visit De Lorenzo's when I was in Trenton, NJ with Trenton Bill, but I guess you saw things didn't go right in being able to visit any De Lorenzo's locations.  Either the De Lorenzo's locations we tried to visit had closed down, or De Lorenzo's didn't open until late in the afternoon.  Also at that supermarket where a De Lorenzo's location used to be it wasn't there anymore.

It probably would be better to wait to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza until I get to visit De Lorenzo's, but I am curious how a De Lorenzo's pizza would work out in my BS and maybe at market.  I would be interested if you could point me to a clone dough formulation to try.  I don't need a clone De Lorenzo's dough formulation to give it a shot.  I like the looks of De Lorenzo's pizza even though I never tasted one. 

I saw there are some pretty unorthodox things De Lorenzo's does with their pizzas.  Thanks for the link to that photo shoot again.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #177 on: August 15, 2013, 04:10:08 PM »
It probably would be better to wait to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza until I get to visit De Lorenzo's, but I am curious how a De Lorenzo's pizza would work out in my BS and maybe at market.  I would be interested if you could point me to a clone dough formulation to try.  I don't need a clone De Lorenzo's dough formulation to give it a shot.  I like the looks of De Lorenzo's pizza even though I never tasted one. 
Norma,

I couldn't tell from the above whether you want a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation or not. Maybe you can clarify.

Peter

Offline BenLee

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2013, 05:48:04 PM »
Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm. De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter


Peter, Sammy, the grandson of Chick is the one who runs the Robbinsville location of Delorenzo's Tomato Pies.  The father, Gary (son in law of Chick) shut up shop in Trenton because it was getting too dangerous.  Last I heard, he was going to open up shop somewhere in PA.  Sammy was making pies for a good 10 to 15 years at Hudson street and I can verify that nothing has changed in terms of preparation and the way they make the pie.  I've been to both at least 20 times.

The Delorenzo's Pizza on Hamilton ave recently shut up shop in Trenton due to crime issues.  They have moved to Hamilton, the neighboring municipality (they even brought their old sign) and I haven't been able to get in as they have been packed.  I actually live about 8 minutes away from this one right now.

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

More recently, Papa's Tomato Pies, the oldest continually running pizzeria in the US is opening up a new location any day now in Robbinsville (a block away from Delorenzo's Tomato Pies).  The father is the one running the new shop while the son is going to take over at the Trenton shop.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the Trenton shop shut down soon though due to the crime in Trenton.

However, soon, there will be a good opportunity for those that are into trying this style of pizza to go to all three in safe neighborhoods which is nice.  We stopped going to Hudson St. 4 years ago after someone was shot in the alley way.  We've always avoided the Hamilton Ave Delorenzo's Pizza because of the danger in going to that neighborhood.  Papa's was literally in a warzone so we never bothered there either.  Kinda sad as we've watch a bunch of businesses that were extremely old and staples of a city for over 60 years to flee or shut up shop altogether.     

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2013, 06:17:26 PM »
Norma,

I couldn't tell from the above whether you want a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation or not. Maybe you can clarify.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I would like a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation to try.   ;D  I am sorry what I posted was confusing.   I was at the Weis supermarket after I was at market today and I found some Sargento LMPS mozzarella in a bag.  Weis supermarket had Maggio cheese products, but no mozzarellas.  I have to look at Giant to see what they have.  I don't know if the Sargento LMPS mozzarella will cut it or not for the cheese, but if it doesn't I can use it on a PJ cheesestick attempt. 

Norma
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