Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 55710 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #380 on: August 27, 2013, 09:53:31 PM »
These are the photos of how the De Lorenzo's attempt went today.  The thickness factor seems fine, but the pizza wasn't exactly like De Lorenzo's pizza at Robbinsville.  There was too much flour, cornmeal or semolina on the bottom of the small dough ball from the dough ball I purchased at De Lorenzo's in Sloan.  The pizza was similar to De Lorenzo's pizza though in that it was crunchy it parts of the baked pizza and was good.  I think Steve and I didn't add enough of sugar to the tomatoes and didn't use enough of the Maggio shred cheese though. 

Steve and I tasted the dough ball and from what we could tell there isn't any salt in their dough ball from eating a piece of the dough ball raw a couple of times.  :o The dough ball was scaled to 10.1 ounces, because we didn't know how much extra flour, cornmeal or semolina was on the dough ball.  The dough ball was tempered at room temperature for over an hour at 93 degrees F.  The dough ball didn't seem to rise at all and it was defrosted a long while before we tempered it. 

At 2:00 PM we formed a dough ball with the leftover parts that were cut off.  At 3:30 PM it didn't look like the leftover dough ball was fermenting at all, so we did the poppy seed trick to see if there was any yeast in the dough.  At  6:30 PM it can be seen how much the dough ball did ferment, so there is some yeast in the dough.  It was hot at market today so I would have thought that extra piece of dough ball would have fermented more in the amount of time we let it ferment at room temperature. 

The dough ball felt very dry and did tear a little after I pounded and stretch it over my marble slab.  The dough is delicate in my opinion. 

The leftover pieces of dough that were formed into a dough ball felt very pliable and we could shape it into anything we wanted.  The smiley face was just one thing we did with the extra dough ball.

The bake time was 8 ½ minutes for this attempt.  I think the bottom didn't get charred at all because of the flour, cornmeal or semolina.  At least it tasted much better than the pizza Bill and I ate at De Lorenzo's on Sloan.

Norma
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 06:12:13 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #381 on: August 27, 2013, 09:58:05 PM »
If there was really no salt added to the dough at De Lorenzo's on Sloan, the crust didn't seem to suffer too much with the texture and taste of the final bake pizza with the other ingredients added.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #382 on: August 27, 2013, 10:01:37 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #383 on: August 27, 2013, 10:06:39 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #384 on: August 27, 2013, 10:09:50 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #385 on: August 27, 2013, 10:30:31 PM »
Question for you Norma,

Do you always add your oil after all the flour has been incorporated?

The reason I ask is that I seem to recall the last time I made this coming up with a fairly dry final dough that I may have had to add some water to (I can't quite recall).  Perhaps I just needed to adjust my water for the environment or something.

I guess primarily I'm curious why oil seems to go in at the end of most formulations that I see.

I am attempting to make this recipe with sourdough starter today using Craig's predictive model as you recommended.  Hoping to have dough balls ready to bake in 24 hours, we shall see.

Pete

Pete,

I have been adding the oil after the flour, salt, IDY, sugar and water are incorporated for about a 1 ½ minutes of mixing.  I drizzle the oil in after waiting for about 5-10 minutes.  I found that information from Tom Lehmann and Joe Kelley and it seems to work well for me.  You might need to adjust the water for the environment you are using.  I found out just this week that the new bag of All Trumps flour I opened just yesterday did perform better with a higher water amount.  I have a hard time even knowing what to do and I do use a Hobart mixer, so I guess it mixes better than some mixers. 

The oil added after the other ingredients are incorporated is supposed to help the gluten form better so the oil doesn't interfere with that. 

Let us know how our recipe with sourdough works out using Craig's predictive model.  I found his model works well with Neapolitan doughs I have tried with controlled temperature ferments. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #386 on: August 27, 2013, 10:43:13 PM »
I am also curious if you ball your dough right away or do a bulk ferment first.  I apologize if I'm flooding you with questions.

Pete

Pete,

You aren't flooding me with questions.  There is a lot I don't know about any pizza dough. That is why I am always asking questions and trying to learn about any pizza dough.  I do ball my dough balls right away after I cut, scale, ball and oil the dough balls, but then I make a lot more dough balls at a time than a regular home pizza maker does.  I also make the dough in much different temperatures throughout the year.  Until I cut, scale, ball and oil my dough balls it takes me a lot longer than most home pizza makers.  I can see the gluten relax until I am finished balling and oiling all of my dough balls.  A home pizza maker might not be able to see that if they are only making one dough ball or a few.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #387 on: August 28, 2013, 06:43:00 AM »
After looking again at the photo I posted, I think in the trash can right beside that pieman that was holding the empty bag of cheese, it now appears to me the name on the bag in the trash can is Sorrento.  Does anyone else see the same thing if the photo is enlarged?

I didn't see this happen when I was at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville, but after reading more on the Trenton thread and going over my photos from my visit to De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville it does appear to me that more cheese might be applied after the pizza is baked some.

Photos below of what I think is Sorrento cheese in the trash can and also how the cheese looks like on top of some of the tomato sauce.  It appears to me that the cheese on top of the tomato sauce is not melted the same as the cheese below the sauce.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #388 on: August 28, 2013, 08:01:27 AM »
I neglected to post how much Maggio shredded cheese was used on the pizza that was made yesterday.  Steve measured it at 3 1/2 ounces.  I also neglected to post that 1/2 can of 6-in-1s was added to the whole can of Red Pack plum tomatoes.  All the plum tomatoes in the Red Pack can looked uniform in their sizes.  Steve crushed the Red Pack tomatoes by hand, before the 6-in-1s sauce was added.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #389 on: August 28, 2013, 10:44:35 AM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for your report on the tomato pie that you made using the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Since members and articles suggested that the two competing De Lorenzos used different doughs that produced different results, I think it was helpful to get your feedback on the thickness factor aspect as it relates to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville may be using to make its dough. In terms of taste, I would also expect that the pizza you made with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would have a different taste profile because De Lorenzo/Sloan is most likely using different tomatoes and cheese, if only to differentiate its pizzas from those sold at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and, before that, at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

I look forward to the hydration bake test should you decide to conduct same with the large dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. It is hard to say if that test, if it can be conducted to produce results that appear credible, will shed any light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using in the way of hydration, but any information on that matter at this point would be welcome.

Speaking of hydration, two days ago I made a test De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be an upper limit on hydration for such a dough. I used a hydration of 59% (plus 1% olive oil/soybean oil blend in an 80/20 ratio). In the absolute, a hydration of around 59% might not seem like a high hydration value. However, for a dough that is expected to bake for around 10 minutes at around 550 degrees F and not turn to a cracker, I believe the dough has to have enough water in it to allow the dough to survive a 10-minute bake time and yet have parts that are a mixture of chewy/soft and hard (cracker like). It seems to me that there is a delicate balance between hydration, skin size (which is related to thickness factor), the amounts of cheese, tomatoes and toppings (in a collective sense), bake temperature and bake time. Not balancing all of these considerations can lead to some fairly wide variations in the outcomes, including crusts that are too hard or overcooked or overcharred. Remember, also, that people are making the pizzas, and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.

For my test dough, I used General Mills all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that we believe De Lorenzo/Robbinsvile is using (and quite likely by De Lorenzo/Sloan) and that you now have in your possession. To improve the hydration of that blend and also to achieve a more robust dough, I sifted the flour and used my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer with all three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook). I ended up kneading the dough at a relatively high speed (4 setting) for a few minutes in order to more fully develop the gluten matrix. I was not concerned that the dough might not yield an open and airy crust or crumb because that does not appear to be a hallfmark of a typical De Lorenzo crust, although you may want some volume to create insulative properties in the crust and crumb during the bake. I was mainly looking for a durable dough that would have sufficient extensibility but still be easy to handle on the bench to form a skin. For my test, I used a thickness factor of 0.065. That value might have to be lowered a bit in practice to compensate for the semolina flour and bench flour that are used in the course of the preparation and management of the final dough.

The amount of yeast (0.40% IDY) was selected to produce a one-day cold fermented dough. Reports to date indicate that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a cold fermented dough of at least one day and possibly up to three days. I settled on one day because that is what you would perhaps have to use at market. The amount of yeast was also selected to minimize a fast or excessive fermentation with a lot of bubbling since you indicated that you did not see any bubbles at either of the two De Lorenzo locations you visited. When the dough was done, I put it into my storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl with lid), along with some semolina flour that I had sprinkled on the bottom of the storage container. The dough ball within the container then went into my refrigerator without the lid for about two hours, to speed up the cooling process and not have the dough ferment too quickly. After the two hours, I put the lid on the storage container.

After exactly twenty four hours in the refrigerator, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a bit more than a doubling). There were no signs of bubbling, either on the surface of the dough ball or at the bottom of the dough ball. In preparation for forming the skin, I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the size of the dough ball with the dough balls shown in the video that you made and posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403, I flattened the dough ball and compared it with the flattened dough balls that I saw in the video. To my eye, the sizes looked to be very similar. To open the dough ball, I used the techniques shown in the video, including draping the skin over the edge of my counter. I had no problem doing that and ended up with a nice 14" skin. And no bubbles. I was not able to toss or spin the skin and, had I tried to do so, the skin would have run away from me and would have had holes in it. That alone says that the dough has a relatively high hydration. The key seems to be to work fast to open up the skin to the desired size, and to make sure that there is enough bench flour to keep the skin from sticking to anything. In my case, the skin did not stick to my peel or work surface, even after letting the skin sit there for a few hours after it was made.

Throughout the process of forming the skin, I tried to remember to end up with the semolina side down even though I did not sense that was happening in the video you posted.

I mention all of the above to give you the benefit of my logic and thought processes. In your case, with the right flour, and with a mixer that can produce a more robust dough than my home KitchenAid stand mixer can produce, you should be able to do much better than I can.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:54:08 AM by Pete-zza »


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #390 on: August 28, 2013, 10:57:26 AM »
I didn't see this happen when I was at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville, but after reading more on the Trenton thread and going over my photos from my visit to De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville it does appear to me that more cheese might be applied after the pizza is baked some.

Photos below of what I think is Sorrento cheese in the trash can and also how the cheese looks like on top of some of the tomato sauce.  It appears to me that the cheese on top of the tomato sauce is not melted the same as the cheese below the sauce.

Norma,

Those are good points. Trying to put everything together from what was reported in the Trenton thread, which I re-read in its entirety last week, and in this thread, it appears that sometimes De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville would add either more cheese or sauce after an inkitial bake. Maybe they do this on the spur of the moment when they think it is needed. The idea of adding more cheese after an intiall bake was discussed earlier in this thread at Reply 192 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273369/topicseen.html#msg273369.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #391 on: August 28, 2013, 12:58:01 PM »
Yes, Pete...they do throw some extra cheese on top of the pie mid-way. I've always thought that was more cosmetic, as it isn't very much. They also put oil on the corniche/outer edges of the crust at that point, to allow for more charring, I think. (That's why you noted that Sam and his father had the spouted oil cans...for more precision, though, the ketchup squeeze container also works fine.)

Someone earlier raised an issue that has always puzzled me: do people allow a bulk ferment before cutting up, weighing and balling up? Or, do they do the cutting/weighing before the ferment really starts? (I've noticed that Robbinsville has a machine that spits out the balls, though I don't know if they have already fermented or not. I thought the machine was fun to watch...like those cannons they shoot teeshirts and hot dogs from at ballparks.)

I do feel a little goofy knowing so much about the Hudson/Robbinsville operation, but I am a very curious type, love pizza (making it and eating it) and....as I've said...if you're going to emulate something/someone, it might as well be the best. And, at Hudson, it was such an artisanal operation, it was pretty intimate and easy to ask questions and observe. But, I hope they wouldn't perceive this as spying/snooping...I was mainly curious and had no idea that someday I would actually try to make dough and buy a two-decker electric oven for my garage. I think Sam and his father saw someone with a similar passion and curiosity...hopefully.

At this point, I'm close enough to the holy grail to satisfy myself and my family...and still have the enthusiasm to go to Robbinsville whenever I can justify it. The best of all worlds, I think.
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #392 on: August 28, 2013, 01:19:07 PM »
Someone earlier raised an issue that has always puzzled me: do people allow a bulk ferment before cutting up, weighing and balling up? Or, do they do the cutting/weighing before the ferment really starts? (I've noticed that Robbinsville has a machine that spits out the balls, though I don't know if they have already fermented or not. I thought the machine was fun to watch...like those cannons they shoot teeshirts and hot dogs from at ballparks.)

Stuart,

It sounds like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a dough divider/rounder. As you will note from the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10579&hilit=#p72831, dough dividers/rounders start to make economic sense when daily production gets to around 300 dough balls a day. As one of the posters at the PMQTT noted in the above thread, dough dividers/rounders do a good job making tight dough balls. Also, the variations in weight from one dough ball to another are small (usually within a fraction of an ounce), so that means more consistent and more uniform product.

Most commercial pizza operators tend to do the division right after the dough comes out of the mixer although it is possible to let the dough rest in bulk for a while (usually to give the dough a head start on fermentation) before doing the division and scaling. To a great extent, it depends on the dough recipe, dough preparation protocol, and type of pizza. I suspect that there are also requirements that have to be satisfied to use dough dividers/rounders, such as maximum hydration values, oil quantities, other wet ingredients, etc. I'm sure that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville easily meets these requirements.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #393 on: August 28, 2013, 04:01:32 PM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for your report on the tomato pie that you made using the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Since members and articles suggested that the two competing De Lorenzos used different doughs that produced different results, I think it was helpful to get your feedback on the thickness factor aspect as it relates to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville may be using to make its dough. In terms of taste, I would also expect that the pizza you made with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would have a different taste profile because De Lorenzo/Sloan is most likely using different tomatoes and cheese, if only to differentiate its pizzas from those sold at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and, before that, at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

I look forward to the hydration bake test should you decide to conduct same with the large dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. It is hard to say if that test, if it can be conducted to produce results that appear credible, will shed any light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using in the way of hydration, but any information on that matter at this point would be welcome.

Speaking of hydration, two days ago I made a test De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be an upper limit on hydration for such a dough. I used a hydration of 59% (plus 1% olive oil/soybean oil blend in an 80/20 ratio). In the absolute, a hydration of around 59% might not seem like a high hydration value. However, for a dough that is expected to bake for around 10 minutes at around 550 degrees F and not turn to a cracker, I believe the dough has to have enough water in it to allow the dough to survive a 10-minute bake time and yet have parts that are a mixture of chewy/soft and hard (cracker like). It seems to me that there is a delicate balance between hydration, skin size (which is related to thickness factor), the amounts of cheese, tomatoes and toppings (in a collective sense), bake temperature and bake time. Not balancing all of these considerations can lead to some fairly wide variations in the outcomes, including crusts that are too hard or overcooked or overcharred. Remember, also, that people are making the pizzas, and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.

For my test dough, I used General Mills all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that we believe De Lorenzo/Robbinsvile is using (and quite likely by De Lorenzo/Sloan) and that you now have in your possession. To improve the hydration of that blend and also to achieve a more robust dough, I sifted the flour and used my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer with all three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook). I ended up kneading the dough at a relatively high speed (4 setting) for a few minutes in order to more fully develop the gluten matrix. I was not concerned that the dough might not yield an open and airy crust or crumb because that does not appear to be a hallfmark of a typical De Lorenzo crust, although you may want some volume to create insulative properties in the crust and crumb during the bake. I was mainly looking for a durable dough that would have sufficient extensibility but still be easy to handle on the bench to form a skin. For my test, I used a thickness factor of 0.065. That value might have to be lowered a bit in practice to compensate for the semolina flour and bench flour that are used in the course of the preparation and management of the final dough.

The amount of yeast (0.40% IDY) was selected to produce a one-day cold fermented dough. Reports to date indicate that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a cold fermented dough of at least one day and possibly up to three days. I settled on one day because that is what you would perhaps have to use at market. The amount of yeast was also selected to minimize a fast or excessive fermentation with a lot of bubbling since you indicated that you did not see any bubbles at either of the two De Lorenzo locations you visited. When the dough was done, I put it into my storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl with lid), along with some semolina flour that I had sprinkled on the bottom of the storage container. The dough ball within the container then went into my refrigerator without the lid for about two hours, to speed up the cooling process and not have the dough ferment too quickly. After the two hours, I put the lid on the storage container.

After exactly twenty four hours in the refrigerator, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a bit more than a doubling). There were no signs of bubbling, either on the surface of the dough ball or at the bottom of the dough ball. In preparation for forming the skin, I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the size of the dough ball with the dough balls shown in the video that you made and posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403, I flattened the dough ball and compared it with the flattened dough balls that I saw in the video. To my eye, the sizes looked to be very similar. To open the dough ball, I used the techniques shown in the video, including draping the skin over the edge of my counter. I had no problem doing that and ended up with a nice 14" skin. And no bubbles. I was not able to toss or spin the skin and, had I tried to do so, the skin would have run away from me and would have had holes in it. That alone says that the dough has a relatively high hydration. The key seems to be to work fast to open up the skin to the desired size, and to make sure that there is enough bench flour to keep the skin from sticking to anything. In my case, the skin did not stick to my peel or work surface, even after letting the skin sit there for a few hours after it was made.

Throughout the process of forming the skin, I tried to remember to end up with the semolina side down even though I did not sense that was happening in the video you posted.

I mention all of the above to give you the benefit of my logic and thought processes. In your case, with the right flour, and with a mixer that can produce a more robust dough than my home KitchenAid stand mixer can produce, you should be able to do much better than I can.

Peter


Peter,

I believe too that De Lorenzo/Sloan pizza would have a different taste than the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville because of they are using different ingredients on the final pizza. 

I will do the hydration bake test on part of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough later today if I find time.  As I posted before both of their doughs looked about the same and their methods of opening their dough balls, the pounding and stretching look about the same too, but that really doesn't tell if there exact percentages are the same in their dough.  I believe that are using the same flour though.

Thanks so much for doing another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be the upper limit on hydration for such a dough.  I find it interesting what amount of water you used in combination with the oil blend.  I understand that it is quite hard to know what to do that a pizza doesn't turn into a cracker with the fairly long bake.  That was one thing that puzzled me at such high of a bake temperature and such a thin dough with minimal toppings how the pizza doesn't turn into a cracker pizza.  I don't know how you figured that balancing act out.  I know that people are making the pizzas and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.  Do you really believe the De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville location is using semolina or cornmeal in any preparation of their dough?  I did see the semolina/cornmeal on the bottom of the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough ball.  Thanks for telling me how you prepared the dough.  When you set-forth a formulation is that how I should mix the dough?  I find it interesting that using 0.40% IDY that the dough didn't so signs of bubbling at all on the surface or bottom of the dough ball.  I find the flattening part interesting too.  That is good that you could open the dough ball the using the same techniques the piemen used and you had now problems and no bubbles. 

Thank you for posting all you did to give me the benefit of your logic and though process.  I know I have the right flour now to try, but don't think I will use my Hobart mixer at first, because I would need to make too much dough in that mixer to start. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #394 on: August 28, 2013, 04:43:54 PM »
Yes, Pete...they do throw some extra cheese on top of the pie mid-way. I've always thought that was more cosmetic, as it isn't very much. They also put oil on the corniche/outer edges of the crust at that point, to allow for more charring, I think. (That's why you noted that Sam and his father had the spouted oil cans...for more precision, though, the ketchup squeeze container also works fine.)

I do feel a little goofy knowing so much about the Hudson/Robbinsville operation, but I am a very curious type, love pizza (making it and eating it) and....as I've said...if you're going to emulate something/someone, it might as well be the best. And, at Hudson, it was such an artisanal operation, it was pretty intimate and easy to ask questions and observe. But, I hope they wouldn't perceive this as spying/snooping...I was mainly curious and had no idea that someday I would actually try to make dough and buy a two-decker electric oven for my garage. I think Sam and his father saw someone with a similar passion and curiosity...hopefully.

At this point, I'm close enough to the holy grail to satisfy myself and my family...and still have the enthusiasm to go to Robbinsville whenever I can justify it. The best of all worlds, I think.


Stuart,

Thanks so much for the information about using oil on the outer edges when the pizzas might get more cheese at the De Lorenzo's Robbinsville location.  ;D I did use a little olive oil on the rim when the rim kept looking so white yesterday during the final minutes of the bake.  It is good to know that De Lorenzo's does the same thing. 

Thanks for the information about the dough/divider rounder too.  I wonder why in the article that Peter referenced at PMQ think tank the one poster said a dough/divider rounder could make a much tighter dough ball than a person can.  I always thought you just balled until the dough ball was tight and didn't know a tighter dough ball would make a better pizza. 

I am glad you also are a curious person and love making and eating pizza and have learned so much information about what they did at the De Lorenzo's Hudson St. location.  8)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #395 on: August 28, 2013, 04:47:49 PM »
I called the phone number at the bottom of http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds and talked to two women today about the Sorrento mozzarella.  The first woman is following up with quality control and I should get a call or email from her tomorrow.  Another woman is helping me find a food broker in Pa. and she is going to send me information in an email about the Sorrento part skim shred mozzarellas.  There are two Sorrento part skim shred mozzarellas.  The one is RG and the other is MD.  The second lady told me that Sorrento is soon/or now is under the Galbani name and all Sorrento mozzarellas are now going to be named Galbani on the labels.  If anyone now sees the Galbani name on the mozzarella at the De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville location that is why they might see another cheese name other than Sorrento.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #396 on: August 28, 2013, 04:58:11 PM »
Norma,

The matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one. We have members who have said semolina but we have had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough maker and at least one other member say cornmeal. In this vein, if you look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm , it appears that there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the top dough box shown in the photo. Yet, when I look at the video you recently posted, I do not seen signs of either semolina or cornmeal anywhere. Also, in all the photos and videos I have seen, I have not seen any brushes that are typically used to brush the burnt remains of semolina or cornmeal from the deck ovens.

If either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what would matter most to me at this point is the purpose of using the semolina or cornmeal. Is it for flavor or texture purposes, or is it to keep the skins from sticking to the peels or the decks of the ovens? If the latter, that would be instructive because it would suggest a fairly high hydration dough. You don't need a release agent for a low hydration dough or one with moderate hydration.

When you and Trenton Bill ate the pizzas at the two De Lorenzo locations, did you detect the presence of either semolina or cornmeal?

When you make your De Lorenzo clone dough at hone using your home stand mixer, I would make it as you usually do. I went to more draconian measures because I was using all-purpose flour whereas you will be using a flour (the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour) that has a natural 12.9% protein content, not a manufactured one using vital wheat gluten. Your dough should be a more robust one than the one I made. And that would be even more true were you to use your Hobart mixer at market.

I pretty much have in mind a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to try but I would prefer to await the results of the hydration bake test if you are able to conduct it. Either way, I will have something for you before you have to make dough for use at market next week.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 05:00:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #397 on: August 28, 2013, 05:39:44 PM »
Norma,

The matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one. We have members who have said semolina but we have had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough maker and at least one other member say cornmeal. In this vein, if you look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm , it appears that there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the top dough box shown in the photo. Yet, when I look at the video you recently posted, I do not seen signs of either semolina or cornmeal anywhere. Also, in all the photos and videos I have seen, I have not seen any brushes that are typically used to brush the burnt remains of semolina or cornmeal from the deck ovens.

If either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what would matter most to me at this point is the purpose of using the semolina or cornmeal. Is it for flavor or texture purposes, or is it to keep the skins from sticking to the peels or the decks of the ovens? If the latter, that would be instructive because it would suggest a fairly high hydration dough. You don't need a release agent for a low hydration dough or one with moderate hydration.

When you and Trenton Bill ate the pizzas at the two De Lorenzo locations, did you detect the presence of either semolina or cornmeal?

When you make your De Lorenzo clone dough at hone using your home stand mixer, I would make it as you usually do. I went to more draconian measures because I was using all-purpose flour whereas you will be using a flour (the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour) that has a natural 12.9% protein content, not a manufactured one using vital wheat gluten. Your dough should be a more robust one than the one I made. And that would be even more true were you to use your Hobart mixer at market.

I pretty much have in mind a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to try but I would prefer to await the results of the hydration bake test if you are able to conduct it. Either way, I will have something for you before you have to make dough for use at market next week.

Peter


Peter,

I agree that the matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one too.  I have looked at that photo you referenced many times and I see there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the dough box. 

I didn't see any signs of either semolina or cornmeal when I visited De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville either, but I thought I might have missed something because I was only watching what was happening for about 10 minutes.  That, and because the counter was so high I had a hard time seeing everything.

I agree that if either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinville what would those purposes be. 

When Trenton Bill and I ate the pizza at De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville we didn't notice any cornmeal or semolina on the bottom crust of the pizza.  I saw at the De Lorenzo's/Sloan location that the were using either cornmeal or semolina as the bench flour, but I sure don't recall a cornmeal or semolina taste on the bottom crust of the slices I ate.  I would have to ask Bill if he noticed a cornmeal or semolina taste on the bottom crust at the De Lorenzo's/Sloan location.  I think Bill might have been too upset with the oil they used to detect anything else though.

Thanks for telling me I can use my stand mixer at home to make my clone dough attempt.  I know the dough would be more robust if I used the Hobart mixer at market, but that can wait until I see how my opening techniques work and how my deck oven works.  I will try to do the hydration test tonight or tomorrow to see if that helps at all.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #398 on: August 28, 2013, 06:51:46 PM »
Peter,

I have one question to ask you.  I defrosted the large dough ball that I purchased from De Lorenzo's at Sloan.  I tried to get all of the semolina or cornmeal off of the 10 gram dough piece.  Do you think it matters if there might be any cornmeal or semolina in the dough for the hydration bake test?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #399 on: August 28, 2013, 07:07:42 PM »
I have one question to ask you.  I defrosted the large dough ball that I purchased from De Lorenzo's at Sloan.  I tried to get all of the semolina or cornmeal off of the 10 gram dough piece.  Do you think it matters if there might be any cornmeal or semolina in the dough for the hydration bake test?
Norma,

Unless the semolina or cornmeal is dispersed in the dough, is it possible to get a piece from inside the dough ball where there is no semolina or cornmeal? If not, I will take what you have.

Peter


 

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