Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 98626 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #750 on: September 30, 2013, 07:57:23 PM »
Norma,

As mentioned in Reply 713 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281075.html#msg281075, I proposed to make another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough but using less yeast--to enable a two-day cold fermentation dough but with little or no bubbling--and using a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating. What prompted these changes was a post at the Trenton thread at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293/topicseen.html#msg44293. In that post, member JoeyBagadonuts reported that his uncle, who had apparently spent a lot of time around the Hudson Street location, said that the dough made at De Lorenzo/Hudson was made each day for next day use and that the dough was allowed to rest before refrigerating in a cooler. Since JoeyBagadonuts had mentioned his uncle in several posts (I did a search and found seven such posts), I decided to read those posts more carefully. What I discovered was that just about everything the uncle reported about how the Hudson Street location ran its business turned out to fit the picture as we now understand it. That lent credibility to the uncle’s recollections.

So, I created the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation as set forth below, along with the pertinent preparation instructions. Having concluded the clone test dough based on that formulation, I would characterize it as a success.

The latest test dough was prepared in the same manner as the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs as discussed in recent posts but with a couple of changes. First, after kneading the dough, I let it start to ferment in the mixer bowl at room temperature, for 45 minutes. Second, after the dough had rested, I formed it into a ball and placed it in its storage container, and then into the refrigerator. I intentionally left the lid off for about an hour. This was to simulate the cross stacking of dough boxes. I then put the lid onto the container. This simulated the step of down stacking.

As the dough cold fermented, I periodically monitored the spacing of the poppy seeds that I had placed on the dough ball. Interestingly, and completely fortuitously, after exactly 24 hours of cold fermentation, the dough ball had risen by 67.5% (based on the poppy seed spacing). This degree of rise was the same as the two-day cold fermented test dough as described in Reply 713 referenced above. For the record, the amount of yeast that yielded the faster rise, as assisted by the resting/fermentation of the dough in the mixer bowl, was 0.12% IDY. Along with that change, I had also decreased the hydration to 56%. This change was to promote a slight increase in elasticity of the skin made from the dough and, as a result, better handling qualities. The oil (blend) was kept at 1%, and the salt was kept at 1.5%.

My initial instinct after seeing the one-day 67.5% rise was to see if the dough could be opened up at that point to form a skin as was done successfully with the two-day test dough described in Reply 713. After some thought, I decided instead to let the dough cold ferment for another day, for a total of two days. The reason for doing this was to see if it was possible to have a single dough that could be used after one day or after two days, yet be free of bubbling at all times. Notably, at the 24-hour point, there was no bubbling of the dough whatsoever.

By the end of the second day of cold fermentation, again with no bubbling of the dough whatsoever, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested an increase in the volume of the dough by a bit more than one and a half times (260%). I took that to be a good sign since it was nowhere near underfermentation or overfermentation. I decided at this point to let the dough temper at room temperature until some bubbling started to appear, whereupon I would open up the dough ball to form a skin. I monitored the behavior of the dough and, after two hours, the dough had softened but still showed no signs of bubbling. Rather than let the dough temper longer, I decided to form a skin at that point. However, I believe that the dough could have tempered for a considerably longer period. More importantly, the dough after two hours of tempering looked like what was shown in the Robbinsville photos.

As it turned out, the dough opened fairly easily. The skin had more elasticity than the last test dough ball but this was as I had intended and planned by lowering the hydration value to 56%. By the time I lifted the skin off of my work surface, I was able to open it up with ease, to over 18”. However, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin.

As before, the best test of the latest dough is to make a pizza out of it, either after one day or after two days. Since you will be testing the dough formulation set forth in Reply 713, the results you achieve may be instructive as to the latest test dough also.

Here are the particulars for the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, together with dough preparation details:

De Lorenzo Dough Clone Formulation # 6
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.12%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (158.62%):
181.41 g  |  6.4 oz | 0.4 lbs
101.59 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation method I used, this was the sequence:

1. Place the water, salt and oil (blend) in the mixer bowl and stir to dissolve the salt.
2. Sift the flour and IDY into a suitable container (I use a plastic bowl).
3. With the flat beater attached, and with the mixer at speed 1, gradually add the flour mixture (I gradually shake the flour mix into the mixer bowl in a somewhat vibrating fashion so it is essentially sprinkled into the mixer bowl).
4. When the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl, stop the mixer and replace the flat beater attachment with the C-hook. If the dough does not quite clear the sides of the mixer bowl with the flat beater attached, stop the mixer and combine the ingredients by hand to form a dough ball. It need not be smooth at this point but should hold together.
5. With the C-hook attached, knead the dough at speeds 2-3 for about 6 minutes.
6. Stop the mixer and let the dough rest in the mixer bowl, uncovered, for 45 minutes.
7. Form the dough into a ball. This is where I weigh the dough ball and trim it to 10 ounces, if needed, measure the finished dough temperature, put the dough ball into its storage container (with a scattering of cornmeal or semolina at the bottom), and put the two poppy seeds in place, spaced 1" apart.
8. Put the dough within its container, and without the lid, into the refrigerator. Note the time the dough is placed into the refrigerator.
9. After 1 hour, place the lid on the container.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand why you decided to make another De Lorenzo clone dough since JoeyBagadonuts reported what his uncle said.  I still didn't spend enough time on that thread to gather everything in that was posted. 

Good to hear you would characterize your new De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 a success.  Thank you for giving detailed instructions on what you did and how you prepared the dough and how much it fermented and everything else.   

If I try your new formulation this week or next week I will try to remember to bring some poppy seeds home from market.  Mine disappeared mysteriously at home.  I will try to copy out your detailed instructions. 

This is my dough ball this afternoon at market without poppy seeds.  I did sift the flour and will see how it goes tomorrow in opening the dough ball and with baking in the deck oven.  I am not having much high hopes for baking in the deck oven though.  I did remember to take my IR gun to market today to see what temperatures the perimeters are. 

Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #751 on: October 01, 2013, 02:00:18 AM »
Tim,

You did a great job with your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza. You could have fooled me.

The 0.30% IDY in the clone dough formulation you used does a nice job for a roughly two-day cold fermentation. It is a sweet spot for most two-day cold fermented doughs. Under normal conditions, you shouldn't get either underfermentation or overfermentation. In my case, my objective has been to try to make a dough that behaves and performs just like the Robbinsville dough balls that I have seen in photos and videos.

As for your flour blend, next time you might try a blend of 69% All Trumps high-gluten flour and 31% Western Family all-purpose flour. As best I can tell from the Western Family website (specifically, the Nutrition Facts), the Western Family all-purpose flour has a nominal protein content of 10%. Using that number and the protein content of the All Trumps flour (14.2%) in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, to get a protein content of 12.9% for the blend, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour, you want to use the 69%/31% apportionment mentioned above.

Your oil blend is fine. It is perhaps better than what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and assuredly more expensive. You would have to try an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil to see if you can detect a flavor difference. At 2%, you might be able to notice a difference. At 1%, which is a lower value that I have been testing, I'd be surprised if you could detect a flavor difference.

You indicated that you ended up with a 288 gram dough ball. What I have been doing is trimming my overweight dough balls back to about 284 grams, which is about 10 ounces. I do this because I want all of my test dough balls to be the exact same weight. In your case, you don't have to be as fussy since a difference of four grams is not going to have much affect on the final pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the compliments on my pizza and for letting me know the correct ratio of All Trumps Flour to Western Family AP flour in order to get a 12.9% protein blend.  I considered just using KABF since it was roughly the same protein content (12.7%), but then I wondered how important the Potassium Bromate in the Pillsbury flour is to the finished characteristics of this crust.  At some point, I will have to test both, side by side.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:44:38 AM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #752 on: October 01, 2013, 02:24:40 AM »
Tim,

I agree you did a great job on a De Lorenzo's clone pizza. ;D  Your experiment shows a De Lorenzo's pizza can be made in a home oven with a baking steel which is good news.  Nice job all around.  I really like your nice coloration on the bottom crust.   

Your cornmeal is a lot yellower in color than mine.  I think it is interesting about the different colors of semolina and cornmeal.

Norma

Norma,

Thanks for your comments on my pizza.  The different colors of cornmeal and semolina are quite interesting and it sometimes makes it hard to distinguish between the two.  I've found that the lighting can also make a big difference when it comes to photographing pizzas.  My kitchen lights give off a yellowish hue, so everything tends to look too yellow in my pictures unless I switch off those lights and grab a desk light with a whiter color of light.  Fortunately my family usually waits patiently as I walk around the darkened kitchen with my camera.   :-D

After thoroughly enjoying the De Lorenzo clone pizza, but wishing the middle portion of the pizza were a little less soggy, I went back and watched the video you posted at the De Lorenzo/Hudson St.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403  I noticed at about 1:39 in the video the pie man held up what appears to be a totally finished pie and squirted olive oil on it, carefully going only around the rim of the pie.   So it appears that (at least) sometimes olive oil is added at the end of the bake, and this oil is added only to the cornicione.

-Tim

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #753 on: October 01, 2013, 02:46:33 AM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

. . .

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.

Stuart,

Nice job on your pizza.  I know what you mean about it being a bit difficult to take precise measurements rather than just improvising a little of this and a little of that.  It's great when people take the time and effort to do this though, so that their results might be more reproducible from person to person.  I think your pies look, in many ways a LOT like the De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and I believe you when you say they taste great.   :)  I hope that sometime when you make your big 16 cup batch of dough, you'll weigh all your ingredients and jot them down.  In addition to a regular kitchen scale, you may need to get one of these tiny scales from amazon to measure the weight of yeast and such, but they only cost about 10 bucks and are great for this purpose.   http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Signature-AWS-100-BLK-Digital/dp/B0012LOQUQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1380609723&sr=1-1

If you do this, Peter can convert your recipe to Baker's Percentages and we can compare what you've been doing all these years to what we're doing now, and hopefully can combine the best of both approaches.

--Tim
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:38:44 PM by RockyMountainPie »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #754 on: October 01, 2013, 07:11:33 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for your comments on my pizza.  The different colors of cornmeal and semolina are quite interesting and it sometimes makes it hard to distinguish between the two.  I've found that the lighting can also make a big difference when it comes to photographing pizzas.  My kitchen lights give off a yellowish hue, so everything tends to look too yellow in my pictures unless I switch off those lights and grab a desk light with a whiter color of light.  Fortunately my family usually waits patiently as I walk around the darkened kitchen with my camera.   :-D

After thoroughly enjoying the De Lorenzo clone pizza, but wishing the middle portion of the pizza were a little less soggy, I went back and watched the video you posted at the De Lorenzo/Hudson St.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403  I noticed at about 1:39 in the video the pie man held up what appears to be a totally finished pie and squirted olive oil on it, carefully going only around the rim of the pie.   So it appears that (at least) sometimes olive oil is added at the end of the bake, and this oil is added only to the cornicione.

-Tim

Tim,

Lol about your family usually waiting patiently as you walk around the darkened kitchen with your camera to be able to take better photos of your pizzas.   :-D

I have had some of the same problems in my deck oven in getting the middle portion of the pizza more crispy.  I don't have my deck oven turned up as high as De Lorenzo's and my oven doesn't bake the same as De Lorenzo's better deck ovens.  De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is baking at a fairly high temperature for about 8 minutes.  In my opinion that is a long bake time at higher temperatures for such a thin pizza.  I did not watch enough when I took that video, but even if that man did only add the oil around the edges of the pizza I would think the pizza in the middle still would be crispy if oil was added at the end of the bake in the middle.  In my Blackstone the middle of the pizza did stay crisp even though I did squirt oil around the middle at the end of the bake. 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #755 on: October 01, 2013, 12:37:47 PM »
Yes...I have a kitchen scale; but, I just bought the one in your link.

I, too, am curious, but this is borderline too geeky for me. I love Delorenzo's (Robbinsville), and consider both Sam and Gary Amico artisans in the best sense. But, I have no aspirations of figuring out how they do it; just to making pies in a way that pleases me and my friends and family...with their product as the ideal.  And, I've been pretty satisfied over the years, though a trip to Hudson/Robbinsville is always still a treat.

I do enjoy reading this thread, though...and will doubtlessly try another "formulation". I was especially impressed by just how extensible? the formulation was, without breaking. I've watched Sam stretch his skins a "million" times...and had never gotten a dough that seemed like it could do that..before the other day.

Keep up the good work.
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #756 on: October 02, 2013, 08:43:06 AM »
This post is to explain how the De Lorenzo's clone pizza went using Peter's #5 De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.  The dough ball sat out longer than I had wanted it to and it was hotter yesterday at market.  My regular dough balls didn't ferment a lot at room temperature yesterday when I let them sit out as long, but since the De Lorenzo clone dough ball is smaller in size I can understand how it would ferment more.  As I posted before I did not use the poppy seed trick, but saw how much the dough ball expanded had risen while it warmed up.  The dough ball was very easy to press on and open.  There were no fermentation bubbles in the dough when pressing or opening the skin.  I know from the previous experiments that my kind of semolina I used is not the greatest to use on the marble table to try and slide the skin around on.  When I tried to slide the skin around over the marble table with the semolina side down the skin did not want to slide at all.  I turned the skin over and it slid much better.  I saw when I went to the nut and dried fruit stand at market yesterday that they sold cornmeal that looked like it was a brighter color of yellow.  I purchased that to try next.  It feels like it might be slippery in texture.  The cornmeal I had purchase from the Country Store is not that yellow in color or doesn't feel slippery in texture.  The  last photo is of the cornmeal I purchased at market yesterday. 

I thought I saw some dark spots in the dough ball when I went to open it, but I am not sure if they really were spots, but I took the dough ball outside to take a photo.  Those really tiny dark spots were not there when I took the dough ball out of the deli case to warm up. 

The skin did stretch easily to 14”, but it could not be tossed.  The pizza was dressed with Red Pack tomatoes and 6-in 1's, Sorrento part skin mozzarella and a drizzle of olive oil.  I tried to drizzle a little olive oil on the skin edges, but as can be seen I did get some olive oil on the wooden peel.  The pizza slid into the oven okay though.  The pizza was baked in the four corners of my oven for 8 minutes 45 seconds.  I took the video of Steve cutting the pizza.  If anyone hears me saying I did not understand what was being said at the end of that video that was about a customer that comes each week to purchase pizza.  Although I am happy he comes to purchase pizza each week and he says I make the best pizzas he has ever eaten Steve and I get sick of hearing all what he has to say when he chats with us.  That customer came yesterday when I was ready to open this dough ball.  He is the man in the bib overalls.  I did not try to get a photo of him, but he was just standing there talking when I took the photo.  That customer says he was a pharmacist, a judge, a lawyer and many other things.  He goes on talking and talking each time he comes to my pizza stand and always talks about all the women he has each week and always shows Steve photos and texts he gets from different women.  Steve gets sick of hearing what he says and so do I.  He says he is married, but it is an open marriage.  I could go on and on in all he says he has, but just a few things are he says he owns some Picasso's, loads of silver bars and so many other things that is quite hard to believe what he says.  He is very intelligent though.  I made the mistake about asking if he understood about the new healthcare reform yesterday.  I sure was not listening to what he had to say yesterday about that because I had this pizza to try to understand.  That is just one interesting part, or not so interesting part about being at market and talking to different customers.   

This pizza was crisp when cut, but it was not crispy or crunchy enough.  At some places in the pizza it was crispy and crunchy enough, but that was not over the whole bottom crust of the pizza.  I tried to show Steve and explain the parts of the bottom crust I though did taste right and that was in the last photo of the bottom crust where it was darker.  The rim crust did have about the right texture of crispy and crunchy, but still was easy to eat.  The pizza was good though, so it was not a complete failure. 

I took some temperatures yesterday way before I made this pizza and they ran from about 525-535 degrees on the sides of the stone.  I really don't think my deck oven is the right place to try out this type of pizza.

I did have a chance to speak with the market manager yesterday when he was going by my stand and I called him over to speak with me.  The good news that came from that conversation is that there will probably be a place to sit down now right near me where a candle man left this week.  The market manager said they might install a ATM there too.  There is only one ATM at regular market and that is in the office.  The market manager also spoke to me about getting the maintenance men to help me move all of my things out of my stand to be able to get a new floor installed.  The one photo is of where seating is soon supposed to be. 



Norma 

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #757 on: October 02, 2013, 08:47:36 AM »
Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #758 on: October 02, 2013, 08:49:47 AM »
Norma


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #759 on: October 02, 2013, 10:20:26 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for running the latest test using the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #5. At least that test confirmed that by using a small amount  of yeast (0.14% IDY in this case) it is possible to make a dough that can cold ferment for two days and not be prone to bubbling and can be fairly easily opened and stretched to the desired size. I would imagine that a similar dough made using a commercial mixer would be even better to work with.

Rather than give up trying to use your Baker's Pride deck oven at market, I have a couple of thoughts. One thing you might try is to keep the pizza out of the oven for about an extra minute or two once you remove it to put on the remaining mozzarella cheese. Then return the pizza to the oven for a final minute or two of baking. If you are afraid that the bottom might burn, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza. You indicated that the total bake time for the latest pizza was 8 minutes and 45 seconds, which is a bit more than the typical bake time at De Lorenzo/Sloan. As you will recall, from what we have read and heard, a typical De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza takes about 10 minutes to bake, at a temperature of 550 degrees F. Maybe the extra minute or two in your deck oven will dry the pizza out a bit more and make it crispier and maybe even with more char at the rim.

Another possibility is to try the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 as set forth at Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. The main reason I came up with that formulation was to produce a slightly drier dough (by lowering the hydration to 56%) but, by using an even smaller amount of yeast (0.12% IDY), plus a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating, the dough could be used after one day or after two days.

If I were to speculate, I would guess that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville would prefer to make the dough one day and use it the next day. That makes dough preparation and management simple and conserves on cooler storage space, which can be a valuable thing if you are serving hundreds of pizzas a day. But, at the same time, if there is any leftover dough, it can be held over another day, and possibly a third day. Beyond that, it would perhaps be necessary to add some sugar to the dough. But, by virtue of the small amount of yeast, the risk of overfermentation, along with bubbling, would be fairly small even after two or maybe three days. However, as I have noted before, bubbling is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it may be that bubbling that is evident in some of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas we have seen. Pizzerias work all of the time with dough balls that are in different stages of fermentation. When one of the De Lorenzo workers, a server who made dough on Sundays, was quoted in the Trenton thread at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 to the effect that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough was cold fermented in a cooler "for a couple days at least", he may well have been thinking of a normal multi-day scenario that could include one day, two days or maybe even three days. In such a case, you want the dough to survive all three periods without overfermenting. I know that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formuation #6 should work for two days. Beyond that I cannot say since I did not test for three days.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #760 on: October 02, 2013, 04:01:27 PM »
I wanted to add that last night we ate leftovers of the #4 experiment from the weekend. One thing I hadn't really noticed with the 6 pies I  made Sunday (because the Eagles' football game was starting and I left to watch it), was that the rigidity was almost uniformly good, ie, almost all the pieces did not flop....even without folding, etc...and that is with sausage, onions and green peppers..and some mushrooms in variations on the pies that had toppings. I think that was pretty impressive, as that is certainly one of the best features of the Robbinsville crust. (and, when they were at Hudson, the charring is something they tried to get on every pie, though people thought the pies were burnt when Robbinsville opened. So, they had to char them less, except on request...which I do when I go there. "Trenton style" char, please.

I did get the idea at Hudson St. that they did not uniformly make the dough in terms of the timing....and, it was often dependent on needs and how much of an earlier batch they sold. That's why I think there's more art and less "science" involved in their artisanship.
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #761 on: October 02, 2013, 04:47:20 PM »
I did get the idea at Hudson St. that they did not uniformly make the dough in terms of the timing....and, it was often dependent on needs and how much of an earlier batch they sold. That's why I think there's more art and less "science" involved in their artisanship.
Stuart,

Pizza operators learn how to manage inventory of dough balls based on experience. They get to know how many dough balls to make on a daily or other periodic basis, especially after many years in business. These days, Robbinsville has a POS system to help them manage inventory. No more handwritten slips.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #762 on: October 02, 2013, 05:04:22 PM »
Yes, Peter...two very different operations: Hudson and Robbinsville. Same basic product/tradition...but that's about it.

So, really much of what people (like me)  have gleaned from going to Hudson and asking questions and observing, is very dated info. Not all, of course.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 05:06:04 PM by beaunehead »
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #763 on: October 02, 2013, 06:50:49 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for running the latest test using the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #5. At least that test confirmed that by using a small amount  of yeast (0.14% IDY in this case) it is possible to make a dough that can cold ferment for two days and not be prone to bubbling and can be fairly easily opened and stretched to the desired size. I would imagine that a similar dough made using a commercial mixer would be even better to work with.

Rather than give up trying to use your Baker's Pride deck oven at market, I have a couple of thoughts. One thing you might try is to keep the pizza out of the oven for about an extra minute or two once you remove it to put on the remaining mozzarella cheese. Then return the pizza to the oven for a final minute or two of baking. If you are afraid that the bottom might burn, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza. You indicated that the total bake time for the latest pizza was 8 minutes and 45 seconds, which is a bit more than the typical bake time at De Lorenzo/Sloan. As you will recall, from what we have read and heard, a typical De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza takes about 10 minutes to bake, at a temperature of 550 degrees F. Maybe the extra minute or two in your deck oven will dry the pizza out a bit more and make it crispier and maybe even with more char at the rim.

Another possibility is to try the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 as set forth at Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. The main reason I came up with that formulation was to produce a slightly drier dough (by lowering the hydration to 56%) but, by using an even smaller amount of yeast (0.12% IDY), plus a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating, the dough could be used after one day or after two days.

If I were to speculate, I would guess that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville would prefer to make the dough one day and use it the next day. That makes dough preparation and management simple and conserves on cooler storage space, which can be a valuable thing if you are serving hundreds of pizzas a day. But, at the same time, if there is any leftover dough, it can be held over another day, and possibly a third day. Beyond that, it would perhaps be necessary to add some sugar to the dough. But, by virtue of the small amount of yeast, the risk of overfermentation, along with bubbling, would be fairly small even after two or maybe three days. However, as I have noted before, bubbling is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it may be that bubbling that is evident in some of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas we have seen. Pizzerias work all of the time with dough balls that are in different stages of fermentation. When one of the De Lorenzo workers, a server who made dough on Sundays, was quoted in the Trenton thread at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 to the effect that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough was cold fermented in a cooler "for a couple days at least", he may well have been thinking of a normal multi-day scenario that could include one day, two days or maybe even three days. In such a case, you want the dough to survive all three periods without overfermenting. I know that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formuation #6 should work for two days. Beyond that I cannot say since I did not test for three days.

Peter

Peter,

I would also imagine that a similar dough made using a commercial mixer would be even better to work with.

Thanks for you thoughts about trying my Baker's Pride deck oven at market and maybe to keep the pizza out of the oven for an extra minute or two when I now partially remove it to the deck door to put the extra mozzarella on it and then put it back into the oven.  What would that do?  Don't you think that would dry out the rim crust more?  The rim crust was almost exactly right yesterday.

Maybe if I find time I will try your De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 at Steve's home in my BS on Saturday to see if I can get a right bake in the BS, before I would try it in my deck oven.  Do you want me to try for a 2 or 3 day cold ferment if I find time?   

I also wanted to tell you that Trenton Bill can't get the same bake using the same formulation he did in his BS.  I am beginning to believe and did believe this is a very tricky pizza to make no matter what kind of oven someone is trying it in.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #764 on: October 02, 2013, 07:40:13 PM »
Norma,

The purpose of keeping the pizza out of the oven for a couple of minutes and then returning it to the oven is to get increased crispness of the crust. That is a technique that I have used with my home oven before for other kinds of pizzas. I'm hoping that technique will work in your case at market also. As for the rim color, I was benchmarking from the photo of the pizza shown at the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville website at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html . That photo appears to show a fair amount of char.

There is no urgency to try the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6. I will leave that up to you. I only went to two days with my test dough, so that might be the time you would want to use. A one-day dough is also an option.

I sympathize with Trenton Bill on the inconsistent results he has gotten. I suspect that that sort of thing also happens at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville from time to time, especially when they are really busy and can't make every pizza perfect. Everything has to be just right for that to happen. Hopefully with more experience with the BlackStone oven, Trenton Bill will be able to get more consistent results. As Stuart has said a few times, there is an artisan aspect to the De Lorenzo pies.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #765 on: October 02, 2013, 08:22:24 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I did some searching to find the post that deals with the technique I mentioned to increase the crispness of the crust. It took me a while to remember keywords to summon up the post, but I finally found the post. It is Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1359.msg12978.html#msg12978 . I had forgotten how long I cooled down my pizza but I remembered that in my case I reheated individual slices rather than the entire pizza. So, if you decide to try the technique, you may need to cool the pizza longer than I did with my slices.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #766 on: October 02, 2013, 08:27:33 PM »
Norma,

The purpose of keeping the pizza out of the oven for a couple of minutes and then returning it to the oven is to get increased crispness of the crust. That is a technique that I have used with my home oven before for other kinds of pizzas. I'm hoping that technique will work in your case at market also. As for the rim color, I was benchmarking from the photo of the pizza shown at the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville website at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html . That photo appears to show a fair amount of char.

There is no urgency to try the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6. I will leave that up to you. I only went to two days with my test dough, so that might be the time you would want to use. A one-day dough is also an option.

I sympathize with Trenton Bill on the inconsistent results he has gotten. I suspect that that sort of thing also happens at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville from time to time, especially when they are really busy and can't make every pizza perfect. Everything has to be just right for that to happen. Hopefully with more experience with the BlackStone oven, Trenton Bill will be able to get more consistent results. As Stuart has said a few times, there is an artisan aspect to the De Lorenzo pies.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me the purpose of keeping the pizza out of the oven for a couple of minutes and then returning it to the oven is to get increased crispness of the crust and that is what you did sometimes for other kinds of pizzas.  I guess that would work for the middle of the bottom crust, but what about the rim crust?  The rim crust is what I was referring to as I thought was almost exactly right.   I keep this photo on my main computer screen of the pizza Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I see that pizza everytime I turn on my computer.  If you note on that photo all the edges aren't perfectly charred and that pizza was very good in Bill's and my opinion.  There even looks like some flour on the one edge. 

I can probably mix a De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 tomorrow for Saturday. 

Trenton Bill thinks he applied too much of the tomato blend and cheese this time, but he will keep trying.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 08:35:26 PM by norma427 »


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #767 on: October 02, 2013, 08:34:18 PM »
Norma,

After my last post, I did some searching to find the post that deals with the technique I mentioned to increase the crispness of the crust. It took me a while to remember keywords to summon up the post, but I finally found the post. It is Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1359.msg12978.html#msg12978 . I had forgotten how long I cooled down my pizza but I remembered that in my case I reheated individual slices rather than the entire pizza. So, if you decide to try the technique, you may need to cool the pizza longer than I did with my slices.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for taking the time to summon up the post you wanted to show me about getting a crisper crust.  I might try that technique on Tuesday and cool the pizza down longer and put it back into the oven again.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #768 on: October 02, 2013, 08:50:25 PM »
Peter,

I want to ask you another question.  I have looked at these photos of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pies at Roadfood.com.  The photos can be enlarged.  I am curious what causes those black bubbles that appear randomly.  None of my attempts had those big bubbles appearing.  That would seem to me that the dough might be higher in hydration for the bubbles to appear, but I sure don't know.  The bubbles are not just on the rim crust in some of the photos.  http://www.roadfood.com/Restaurant/Overview/6725/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #769 on: October 02, 2013, 09:25:13 PM »
I want to ask you another question.  I have looked at these photos of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pies at Roadfood.com.  The photos can be enlarged.  I am curious what causes those black bubbles that appear randomly.  None of my attempts had those big bubbles appearing.  That would seem to me that the dough might be higher in hydration for the bubbles to appear, but I sure don't know.  The bubbles are not just on the rim crust in some of the photos.  http://www.roadfood.com/Restaurant/Overview/6725/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies
Norma,

I think that some of the black bubbles are caramelized cheese, both at the rim and within the rim. For a simple dough such as used by De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, large bubbles in the crust can occur in several ways, including opening up dough balls when cold, underfermentation, large amounts of yeast, increased hydration, and extended fermentation. In some cases, an excessively hot oven can induce bubbling. It is hard to say which of these possibilities applies just from seeing a photo.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 09:28:42 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #770 on: October 02, 2013, 09:38:09 PM »
Norma,

I think that some of the black bubbles are caramelized cheese, both at the rim and within the rim. For a simple dough such as used by De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, large bubbles in the crust can occur in several ways, including opening up dough balls when cold, underfermentation, large amounts of yeast, increased hydration, and extended fermentation. In some cases, an excessively hot oven can induce bubbling. It is hard to say which of these possibilities applies just from seeing a photo.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more about those black bubbles and how they can occur.  I was looking at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville facebook page again and did copy some of their photos onto my computer to study.  There are different articles there too that can be enlarged if someone wants to read them.  This is one I think is interesting in it says the dough is thin and irregularly shaped at De Lorenzo/Hudson.  The one photo of Gary Amico placing the dough on the peel at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville sure looks like a thin dough that is fairly sturdy. 

I have to look over those other articles to see if I might have missed something.

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #771 on: October 02, 2013, 10:10:04 PM »
Peter,

Did you read this article?  It says the crust is blistered and thin.  It also says the dough is a loose stretchy dough that bakes into a crackling crust so brittle and drumhead-thin, it snaps to the bite. 

Gary Amico in the next article is holding the skin and I think shows how thin it really is. 

Maybe in the last photo is what is meant as irregular shaped dough or skin, but that photo was from awhile ago. 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #772 on: October 03, 2013, 07:45:55 AM »
This last picture of Gary is a real hoot. Something is wrong with this picture...very wrong. Anyone???

I do think Peter is closing in here. Though I found #4 a little tasteless, the crunch was right; the airpockets were crisp as cracker...and the rigidity was on target. Like I said before, the ability to stretch easily (and without tearing) was good.

Mine didn't rise all that much...and, I think, could have used some more oil, but....it was good. (My "problem" is that my family have been exposed to so much pizza made in that mode over the years, from my Bakers Pride electric, that I'm not sure they would actually prefer Delorenzo's to mine, anyway, so they're not great judges; and, my wife still thinks of pizza as something to get for a snack or when you can't/won't cook). But, this was good..and easier to handle.

One question, and, I'm sure this has been described ad nauseam: what is the "poppy seed" trick?

I'm also wondering whether  Delorenzos' taking the pies out of the oven for a minute or so to assess the need for oil on the rim, isn't also a variation of the take it out to crisp it thing. Like the articles said, though, the pies' crispness, rigidity, shape, are all pretty variable. I doubt too many people are really focused on the crust, per se, which, for me is the main ingredient there....as so many people talk about toppings. Because toppings are so variable, in water (mushrooms) and grease...I only use the "plain" ones to evaluate the batch. But, in the #4 batch I made the other day, even the sausage and onions..and the anchovy pies were rigid and crispy. I did reheat them before serving, as I made them ahead of the Eagles' football game.

Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #773 on: October 03, 2013, 09:30:03 AM »
Did you read this article?  It says the crust is blistered and thin.  It also says the dough is a loose stretchy dough that bakes into a crackling crust so brittle and drumhead-thin, it snaps to the bite. 

Gary Amico in the next article is holding the skin and I think shows how thin it really is. 

Maybe in the last photo is what is meant as irregular shaped dough or skin, but that photo was from awhile ago. 
Norma,

Can you tell me where you found the articles you cited on the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Facebook page?

I did not read the article you cited before but as for the description you quoted, I really don't know what the words "the dough is a loose stretchy dough that bakes into a crackling crust so brittle and drumhead-thin, it snaps to the bite" mean. For example, what does "loose" mean? Is it a degree of extensibility and, if so, how extensible? And does "brittle" mean that the crust will shatter like a sheet of glass? That would imply a cracker style pizza, which is different than what the De Lorenzo's offered at Hudson. Words have different meanings to different people, and even more so to staff writers who have to be creative and clever and use catchy words in their writing. This is why I pay little attention to reviewers who are just consumers, and not in the pizza business. Photos can also be deceiving, especially a single snapshot. One snapshot does not tell us what the previous snapshot was or what the following one was.

What I found most interesting about the Inquirer Magazine article was the statement that De Lorenzo/Hudson sold about 200 pizzas a day. That was in 1999. But since De Lorenzo Hudson only had 55 seats, which were managed so that there weren't a lot of empty seats in the booths, I would imagine that the 200 number held pretty steady over the years. By contrast, De Lorenzo/Robbinsville has about 95 seats. So, their volume has to be better than 200 pies a day if they are to be profitable. Unlike De Lorenzo/Hudson, De Lorenzo/Robbinsville also offers lunch on several days. Their volume perhaps warrants the use of a dough divider/rounder, as was mentioned before.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #774 on: October 03, 2013, 09:32:52 AM »


One question, and, I'm sure this has been described ad nauseam: what is the "poppy seed" trick?



Stuart,

This is Peter's post about doing the “poppy seed trick”.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html

I have also used the “poppy seed trick” different times. 

Norma