Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 62484 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #740 on: September 30, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
Norma,

I think you might find this interesting. Recently, in rereading some of the articles and reviews about the two De Lorenzo operations, I noticed that the writers observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Pizza were thinner than those at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies. The items I am referring to are at http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/25-perfect-pizzas.html and at http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491. On the flip side of this issue, a writeup at Slice/Serious Eats at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html observed that the crusts at De Lorenzo Tomato Pies were thinner than at De Lorenzo Pizza. Closer to home, the photos that you took and posted of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo Sloan, starting at Reply 333 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275426.html#msg275426, seemed to support the thesis that the Sloan crusts are thicker than the Robbinsville crusts. You also commented on the Sloan thickness matter at Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275616.html#msg275616.

Truth be told, it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers who commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on the days in question that formed the basis for the articles. Dough balls used in commercial pizza operations are rarely the same weight, even when dough rounders/dividers are used. And the pizza assemblers don't open up dough balls to the exact same sizes, time after time, and get the tape measure out to be sure. Even you indicated that the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at Sloan was about 13", not 14". Rim sizes can also be different from one skin to another. It is also easy to misjudge the thickness of a pizza crust when there are wide variations in what is placed on the pizzas and their quantities, especially when the cheese, sauce and toppings are put on by eye, not by weight. Even if two like pizzas, one from each of two pizza operators (such as the two De Lorenzo operations in our example), were put side by side, it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other. The reality is that a difference in a thickness factor of say, 0.065, which we have been using in our De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone tests, and a thickness factor of, say, 0.07276, which is the thickness factor for the Sloan 11.2-ounce dough ball that you purchased, is not going to translate into a big difference in dough ball weight, maybe a bit over an ounce for a 14" pizza. And that difference can easily be lost in practice for the reasons mentioned above. I think it would still be nice to know what dough ball weights are used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville but mainly because knowing the answer might help us determine how best to bake the pizzas.

Peter


Peter,

I did find your links you referenced and what the reviewers had to say interesting. 

I also do think about it is possible that all of the writers and reviewers that commented on the crusts of the two De Lorenzo operations were correct on days in question that formed their opinions.  I know Trenton Bill's and my pizza at Sloan wasn't 14” and in Bills and my opinion was underbaked.  I can understand it might be a coin flip as to which crust is thinner or thicker than the other.  The taste of the whole pizzas would be different too because they both use different dressings (tomato products and cheese).   

How are we every going to be able to find what dough ball weights De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses since they don't sell dough balls?

I still want to try out the leftover part of frozen De Lorenzo/Sloan dough in my BS when I find time.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #741 on: September 30, 2013, 11:09:45 AM »
How are we every going to be able to find what dough ball weights De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses since they don't sell dough balls?
Norma,

On the one hand it doesn't mean a lot if our members are able to make credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizzas, whether in a commercial setting, using a standard inside home oven, or using a BlackStone oven. If the members are pleased with the results, that is all that really matters.

On the other hand, I always like to know the answers to things I am working on. It is the only way I know whether what I am doing is right or wrong. For example, as I previously mentioned, when I was trying to come up with a thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs, I took my iPad into my kitchen and opened up a piece of dough until the thickness of the skin was as close as I could get it to the Robbinsville skins that were displayed on my iPad. Of course, the photos were in two dimensions and I was working in three dimensions so I couldn't be sure that my approach was a valid one. And I did not do this exercise casually. I spent a lot of time tweaking my skin until I couldn't detect a difference. When I was done, I weighed the skin and, based on its diameter, I calculated the thickness factor. And it was 0.065. If we had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough ball to weigh, we would know the answer to the thickness factor matter. And that would tell me whether my approach to the matter was a good one or a bad one, or maybe something in between. Once I have answers, right or wrong, good or bad, they get filed in my memory bank.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:11:18 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #742 on: September 30, 2013, 11:35:39 AM »
Norma,

On the one hand it doesn't mean a lot if our members are able to make credible De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizzas, whether in a commercial setting, using a standard inside home oven, or using a BlackStone oven. If the members are pleased with the results, that is all that really matters.

On the other hand, I always like to know the answers to things I am working on. It is the only way I know whether what I am doing is right or wrong. For example, as I previously mentioned, when I was trying to come up with a thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs, I took my iPad into my kitchen and opened up a piece of dough until the thickness of the skin was as close as I could get it to the Robbinsville skins that were displayed on my iPad. Of course, the photos were in two dimensions and I was working in three dimensions so I couldn't be sure that my approach was a valid one. And I did not do this exercise casually. I spent a lot of time tweaking my skin until I couldn't detect a difference. When I was done, I weighed the skin and, based on its diameter, I calculated the thickness factor. And it was 0.065. If we had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough ball to weigh, we would know the answer to the thickness factor matter. And that would tell me whether my approach to the matter was a good one or a bad one, or maybe something in between. Once I have answers, right or wrong, good or bad, they get filed in my memory bank.

Peter

Peter,

I know it doesn't mean a lot if members can get credible De Lorenzo clones using whatever types of ovens they have available. 

I know you are always devil is in the details.  I recall what you did to come up with the thickness factor to use for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone doughs.  That must have taken you a long while.  I know you have a great memory bank too.

I have to tell you something funny Trenton Bill said when you started again to try and clone the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza on this thread.  Bill said how the heck is Peter going to clone a pizza if he never tasted it.  I told Bill just watch and wait and in no-time Peter will have something for us to try.  Bill hasn't watched what you do as much as I have.  Bill is in awe now of what you can do in cloning a pizza.

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #743 on: September 30, 2013, 01:34:12 PM »
I have to tell you something funny Trenton Bill said when you started again to try and clone the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza on this thread.  Bill said how the heck is Peter going to clone a pizza if he never tasted it.  I told Bill just watch and wait and in no-time Peter will have something for us to try.  Bill hasn't watched what you do as much as I have.  Bill is in awe now of what you can do in cloning a pizza.
Norma,

LOL. When you don't have the luxury of eating a particular pizza that you are trying to reverse engineer and clone, and when you don't have the types of ingredients that professionals use, and when you don't have the right kind of mixers, ovens and other professional equipment, all you are left with is a fact based analysis. That automatically forces you to develop facts. That is usually done through extensive and time consuming research and learning about ingredients and what they do and how they interact with each other, reading articles and reviews, analyzing videos, assessing what people who are close to the matters at hand have to say, and, in the case of technical stuff like Nutrition Facts, learning how the FDA and other regulatory bodies are involved in the process. It is forensics type of work.

As you know, I tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people who are just casual observers and might not have been looking and asking about the sorts of things I would have looked at and asked about had I been there. As I mentioned to you recently in a PM, there are many innocent people languishing in prisons because of faulty or unreliable eyewitness testimony. So, I try to stay as close to the facts as possible. It also helps, of course, to be able to handle basic math and to understand technical matters, such as chemistry/biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related. Most of what I know of these topics I have pretty much learned on my own. Finally, I have learned that it helps to think logically and practically and to try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who are doing the day to day stuff, and to know how businesses work and how important it is that something as simple as a dough recipe fit the business, not the other way around.

Of course, without you I would not have been able to do what I do. You have an insatiable curiosity, you are a hard and willing worker, you don't give up easily, if at all, and you have access to the types of ingredients and equipment that professionals use. You also have eaten some of the pizzas that we have tried to reverse engineer and clone. In that respect, you have been like a seeing-eye dog to me. And you know what you are seeing and what questions to ask. Sometimes when I go back and reread some of the reverse engineering and cloning threads that you and I were involved in I can't believe how much ground we covered, the kinds of things we did in search of clues or answers, and how much we learned.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #744 on: September 30, 2013, 02:13:38 PM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

I made the dough Saturday afternoon and weighed it out to 10 oz into balls with semolina as "ball bearings"; refrigerated it and took it out 2 hours before I opened it yesterday. Cooked in my two deck, Firbrament floored electric oven at 550....between 9 and 10 minutes depending on toppings.

I have to say I had a devil of a time converting the measurements into something that made sense to me, but I think I got there. I've been making acceptable dough for several years that has gotten me close to the "ideal". I use a 16 cup,heavy duty cuisinart food processor and King ARthur bread flour.

This was, IMO, closer in the sense that the dough was very extensible and strong. It didn't break with stretching, etc...and was a very pleasant surprise. The dough resulted in a fairly rigid pie, which was good. It seemed to rise very little, which was a surprise to me.

Overall, the dough was not as tasty as what I've made. I suspect the No. 4 formulation I used had significantly less oil...and maybe salt. Texturally, I found that it was closer to cracker than I want...ie, some of it was a little layered rather than full of bubbles.

All in all....it was fun to try...and I will , next time, try less yeast in my old recipe...and, maybe less oil, too....I really liked the strength of the dough. I'd never experienced that much...and that's what enables my "ideals" in the Trenton area to stretch away.

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.
Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #745 on: September 30, 2013, 06:01:11 PM »
Norma,

As mentioned in Reply 713 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281075.html#msg281075, I proposed to make another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough but using less yeast--to enable a two-day cold fermentation dough but with little or no bubbling--and using a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating. What prompted these changes was a post at the Trenton thread at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293/topicseen.html#msg44293. In that post, member JoeyBagadonuts reported that his uncle, who had apparently spent a lot of time around the Hudson Street location, said that the dough made at De Lorenzo/Hudson was made each day for next day use and that the dough was allowed to rest before refrigerating in a cooler. Since JoeyBagadonuts had mentioned his uncle in several posts (I did a search and found seven such posts), I decided to read those posts more carefully. What I discovered was that just about everything the uncle reported about how the Hudson Street location ran its business turned out to fit the picture as we now understand it. That lent credibility to the uncle’s recollections.

So, I created the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation as set forth below, along with the pertinent preparation instructions. Having concluded the clone test dough based on that formulation, I would characterize it as a success.

The latest test dough was prepared in the same manner as the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs as discussed in recent posts but with a couple of changes. First, after kneading the dough, I let it start to ferment in the mixer bowl at room temperature, for 45 minutes. Second, after the dough had rested, I formed it into a ball and placed it in its storage container, and then into the refrigerator. I intentionally left the lid off for about an hour. This was to simulate the cross stacking of dough boxes. I then put the lid onto the container. This simulated the step of down stacking.

As the dough cold fermented, I periodically monitored the spacing of the poppy seeds that I had placed on the dough ball. Interestingly, and completely fortuitously, after exactly 24 hours of cold fermentation, the dough ball had risen by 67.5% (based on the poppy seed spacing). This degree of rise was the same as the two-day cold fermented test dough as described in Reply 713 referenced above. For the record, the amount of yeast that yielded the faster rise, as assisted by the resting/fermentation of the dough in the mixer bowl, was 0.12% IDY. Along with that change, I had also decreased the hydration to 56%. This change was to promote a slight increase in elasticity of the skin made from the dough and, as a result, better handling qualities. The oil (blend) was kept at 1%, and the salt was kept at 1.5%.

My initial instinct after seeing the one-day 67.5% rise was to see if the dough could be opened up at that point to form a skin as was done successfully with the two-day test dough described in Reply 713. After some thought, I decided instead to let the dough cold ferment for another day, for a total of two days. The reason for doing this was to see if it was possible to have a single dough that could be used after one day or after two days, yet be free of bubbling at all times. Notably, at the 24-hour point, there was no bubbling of the dough whatsoever.

By the end of the second day of cold fermentation, again with no bubbling of the dough whatsoever, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested an increase in the volume of the dough by a bit more than one and a half times (260%). I took that to be a good sign since it was nowhere near underfermentation or overfermentation. I decided at this point to let the dough temper at room temperature until some bubbling started to appear, whereupon I would open up the dough ball to form a skin. I monitored the behavior of the dough and, after two hours, the dough had softened but still showed no signs of bubbling. Rather than let the dough temper longer, I decided to form a skin at that point. However, I believe that the dough could have tempered for a considerably longer period. More importantly, the dough after two hours of tempering looked like what was shown in the Robbinsville photos.

As it turned out, the dough opened fairly easily. The skin had more elasticity than the last test dough ball but this was as I had intended and planned by lowering the hydration value to 56%. By the time I lifted the skin off of my work surface, I was able to open it up with ease, to over 18”. However, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin.

As before, the best test of the latest dough is to make a pizza out of it, either after one day or after two days. Since you will be testing the dough formulation set forth in Reply 713, the results you achieve may be instructive as to the latest test dough also.

Here are the particulars for the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, together with dough preparation details:

De Lorenzo Dough Clone Formulation # 6
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.12%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (158.62%):
181.41 g  |  6.4 oz | 0.4 lbs
101.59 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation method I used, this was the sequence:

1. Place the water, salt and oil (blend) in the mixer bowl and stir to dissolve the salt.
2. Sift the flour and IDY (and vital wheat gluten, if used with a lower protein flour than the Pillsbury flour mentioned above) into a suitable container (I use a plastic bowl).
3. With the flat beater attached, and with the mixer at speed 1, gradually add the flour mixture (I gradually shake the flour mix into the mixer bowl in a somewhat vibrating fashion so it is essentially sprinkled into the mixer bowl). After each addition of the flour mix, allow the flat beater to fully incorporate the ingredients. If available, a long, thin-bladed, flexible spatula can be used to guide the ingredients at the sides of the mixer bowl into the path of the flat beater, but without becoming entangled with the flat beater itself.
4. When the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl, whatever time that takes, stop the mixer and replace the flat beater attachment with the C-hook. If the dough does not quite clear the sides of the mixer bowl with the flat beater attached, stop the mixer and combine the ingredients by hand to form a dough ball. It need not be smooth at this point but should hold together. Remove any dough stuck to the flat beater attachment and combine with the rest of the dough in the mixer bowl.
5. With the C-hook attached, knead the dough at speeds 2-3 for about 6 minutes. Try to keep the dough ball outside of the C-hook so that it doesn't become impaled on the C-hook and spin without kneading (stop the mixer from time to time to do this if necessary). If the dough ball want to impale itself on the C-hook and spin with it without kneading, scatter a bit of flour on the dough ball or the side of the mixer bowl. That is not a perfect solution but should help reduce the degree to which the dough sticks to the C-hook.
6. Stop the mixer and let the dough rest in the mixer bowl, uncovered, for 45 minutes.
7. Form the dough into a ball. This is where I weigh the dough ball and trim it to 10 ounces, if needed, measure the finished dough temperature, put the dough ball into its storage container (with a scattering of cornmeal or semolina at the bottom), and put the two poppy seeds in place, spaced 1" apart.
8. Put the dough within its container, and without the lid, into the refrigerator. Note the time the dough is placed into the refrigerator.
9. After 1 hour, place the lid on the container.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #746 on: September 30, 2013, 06:37:52 PM »
FWIW, Peter.....the resting period before making the balls, giving the yeast to munch on some of the sugars in the flour is what I had always done before trying formulation #4 Saturday. I read your instructions to ball them and place asap into the fridge, which I did for 24 hours. There was neglible increase in the size of the balls, something that was a new phenomenon to me. Why did you add this "resting" phase in your latest formulation?

Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #747 on: September 30, 2013, 07:06:04 PM »
FWIW, Peter.....the resting period before making the balls, giving the yeast to munch on some of the sugars in the flour is what I had always done before trying formulation #4 Saturday. I read your instructions to ball them and place asap into the fridge, which I did for 24 hours. There was negligible increase in the size of the balls, something that was a new phenomenon to me. Why did you add this "resting" phase in your latest formulation?

Stuart,

Most pizza operators go directly from dividing and scaling the bulk dough to the cooler but there are some pizza operators who let the dough rise/rest for a period of time in order to shorten the total fermentation window by doing some of the fermentation up front at ambient (room) temperature. Usually that window is to allow use of the dough balls the next day. Another way would be to use more yeast and skip the rest/fermentation period. But many old timers used the first method.

To answer your question more directly, the reason why I introduced the rest/fermentation period was the following language in Reply 4 in the Trenton thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293.html#msg44293 in which member JoeyBagadonuts reported on what his uncle told him about how the dough was prepared at de Lorenzo/Hudson:

My uncle says he is pretty sure they make them a day in advance, let rise, pound them down, and refrigerate until used the next day.

Since I was making only one dough ball, there really wasn't much to "pound" down. In a commercial setting, as at De Lorenzo/Hudson, one would make the dough in bulk, let it rest/ferment for some specified period of time, and then form into dough balls and put them into dough boxes, cross stack the dough boxes (in the cooler) for a period of time, and then down stack the dough boxes until the dough balls are ready to be used the next day, or maybe later if the dough won't overferment by the time of intended use. The rest period lets fermentation start and helps hydrate the flour more completely and improves the rheology of the dough.

I can't explain why your dough ball did not rise much during the period of cold fermentation. When I used the same dough formulation, my dough ball about tripled in volume, at least according to the increase in spacing of the poppy seeds. Sometimes dough expands but it does not appear as such to the naked eye. That is why I use the poppy seeds.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #748 on: September 30, 2013, 07:31:57 PM »
Norma,

LOL. When you don't have the luxury of eating a particular pizza that you are trying to reverse engineer and clone, and when you don't have the types of ingredients that professionals use, and when you don't have the right kind of mixers, ovens and other professional equipment, all you are left with is a fact based analysis. That automatically forces you to develop facts. That is usually done through extensive and time consuming research and learning about ingredients and what they do and how they interact with each other, reading articles and reviews, analyzing videos, assessing what people who are close to the matters at hand have to say, and, in the case of technical stuff like Nutrition Facts, learning how the FDA and other regulatory bodies are involved in the process. It is forensics type of work.

As you know, I tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people who are just casual observers and might not have been looking and asking about the sorts of things I would have looked at and asked about had I been there. As I mentioned to you recently in a PM, there are many innocent people languishing in prisons because of faulty or unreliable eyewitness testimony. So, I try to stay as close to the facts as possible. It also helps, of course, to be able to handle basic math and to understand technical matters, such as chemistry/biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related. Most of what I know of these topics I have pretty much learned on my own. Finally, I have learned that it helps to think logically and practically and to try to put yourself in the shoes of the people who are doing the day to day stuff, and to know how businesses work and how important it is that something as simple as a dough recipe fit the business, not the other way around.

Of course, without you I would not have been able to do what I do. You have an insatiable curiosity, you are a hard and willing worker, you don't give up easily, if at all, and you have access to the types of ingredients and equipment that professionals use. You also have eaten some of the pizzas that we have tried to reverse engineer and clone. In that respect, you have been like a seeing-eye dog to me. And you know what you are seeing and what questions to ask. Sometimes when I go back and reread some of the reverse engineering and cloning threads that you and I were involved in I can't believe how much ground we covered, the kinds of things we did in search of clues or answers, and how much we learned.

Peter

Peter,

I know you always use fact based analysis and that forces you to develop facts.  I agree that is a forensics type of work.  I know you can also use your math skills and use chemistry, biochemistry and physics since pizza dough is really science related.  I sure don’t have those skills, but usually can follow directions and search.  I always don't think logically and practically though, but at least you keep me grounded when we are on a reverse engineering and cloning thread.  I also know you tend to be somewhat suspicious of eyewitness accounts, especially by people that are jus casual observers. 

Thank you for the kind words about me.  I do have an insatiable curiosity and don't think that will ever go away.  I agree we both learned a lot on the reverse engineering and cloning threads we were on together.  I like how those threads make me think more and of course the pizzas I get to try out from those threads are interesting. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #749 on: September 30, 2013, 07:37:39 PM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

I made the dough Saturday afternoon and weighed it out to 10 oz into balls with semolina as "ball bearings"; refrigerated it and took it out 2 hours before I opened it yesterday. Cooked in my two deck, Firbrament floored electric oven at 550....between 9 and 10 minutes depending on toppings.

I have to say I had a devil of a time converting the measurements into something that made sense to me, but I think I got there. I've been making acceptable dough for several years that has gotten me close to the "ideal". I use a 16 cup,heavy duty cuisinart food processor and King ARthur bread flour.

This was, IMO, closer in the sense that the dough was very extensible and strong. It didn't break with stretching, etc...and was a very pleasant surprise. The dough resulted in a fairly rigid pie, which was good. It seemed to rise very little, which was a surprise to me.

Overall, the dough was not as tasty as what I've made. I suspect the No. 4 formulation I used had significantly less oil...and maybe salt. Texturally, I found that it was closer to cracker than I want...ie, some of it was a little layered rather than full of bubbles.

All in all....it was fun to try...and I will , next time, try less yeast in my old recipe...and, maybe less oil, too....I really liked the strength of the dough. I'd never experienced that much...and that's what enables my "ideals" in the Trenton area to stretch away.

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.

Stuart,

Congratulations on trying your first formula on this board.  ;D That is interesting that you never tried one before.  Do you own a kitchen scale?  I would like to see a De Lorenzo's pizza that you normally make it you try to make one soon.  I never used a scale before I came to the forum and had a hard time understanding everything.  Now since I understand how to use the calculation tools I would not want to go without them.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #750 on: September 30, 2013, 07:57:23 PM »
Norma,

As mentioned in Reply 713 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281075.html#msg281075, I proposed to make another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough but using less yeast--to enable a two-day cold fermentation dough but with little or no bubbling--and using a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating. What prompted these changes was a post at the Trenton thread at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44293/topicseen.html#msg44293. In that post, member JoeyBagadonuts reported that his uncle, who had apparently spent a lot of time around the Hudson Street location, said that the dough made at De Lorenzo/Hudson was made each day for next day use and that the dough was allowed to rest before refrigerating in a cooler. Since JoeyBagadonuts had mentioned his uncle in several posts (I did a search and found seven such posts), I decided to read those posts more carefully. What I discovered was that just about everything the uncle reported about how the Hudson Street location ran its business turned out to fit the picture as we now understand it. That lent credibility to the uncle’s recollections.

So, I created the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation as set forth below, along with the pertinent preparation instructions. Having concluded the clone test dough based on that formulation, I would characterize it as a success.

The latest test dough was prepared in the same manner as the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs as discussed in recent posts but with a couple of changes. First, after kneading the dough, I let it start to ferment in the mixer bowl at room temperature, for 45 minutes. Second, after the dough had rested, I formed it into a ball and placed it in its storage container, and then into the refrigerator. I intentionally left the lid off for about an hour. This was to simulate the cross stacking of dough boxes. I then put the lid onto the container. This simulated the step of down stacking.

As the dough cold fermented, I periodically monitored the spacing of the poppy seeds that I had placed on the dough ball. Interestingly, and completely fortuitously, after exactly 24 hours of cold fermentation, the dough ball had risen by 67.5% (based on the poppy seed spacing). This degree of rise was the same as the two-day cold fermented test dough as described in Reply 713 referenced above. For the record, the amount of yeast that yielded the faster rise, as assisted by the resting/fermentation of the dough in the mixer bowl, was 0.12% IDY. Along with that change, I had also decreased the hydration to 56%. This change was to promote a slight increase in elasticity of the skin made from the dough and, as a result, better handling qualities. The oil (blend) was kept at 1%, and the salt was kept at 1.5%.

My initial instinct after seeing the one-day 67.5% rise was to see if the dough could be opened up at that point to form a skin as was done successfully with the two-day test dough described in Reply 713. After some thought, I decided instead to let the dough cold ferment for another day, for a total of two days. The reason for doing this was to see if it was possible to have a single dough that could be used after one day or after two days, yet be free of bubbling at all times. Notably, at the 24-hour point, there was no bubbling of the dough whatsoever.

By the end of the second day of cold fermentation, again with no bubbling of the dough whatsoever, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested an increase in the volume of the dough by a bit more than one and a half times (260%). I took that to be a good sign since it was nowhere near underfermentation or overfermentation. I decided at this point to let the dough temper at room temperature until some bubbling started to appear, whereupon I would open up the dough ball to form a skin. I monitored the behavior of the dough and, after two hours, the dough had softened but still showed no signs of bubbling. Rather than let the dough temper longer, I decided to form a skin at that point. However, I believe that the dough could have tempered for a considerably longer period. More importantly, the dough after two hours of tempering looked like what was shown in the Robbinsville photos.

As it turned out, the dough opened fairly easily. The skin had more elasticity than the last test dough ball but this was as I had intended and planned by lowering the hydration value to 56%. By the time I lifted the skin off of my work surface, I was able to open it up with ease, to over 18”. However, I would not have been able to toss or spin the skin.

As before, the best test of the latest dough is to make a pizza out of it, either after one day or after two days. Since you will be testing the dough formulation set forth in Reply 713, the results you achieve may be instructive as to the latest test dough also.

Here are the particulars for the latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, together with dough preparation details:

De Lorenzo Dough Clone Formulation # 6
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.12%):
Salt (1.5%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (158.62%):
181.41 g  |  6.4 oz | 0.4 lbs
101.59 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.22 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.45 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In terms of the dough preparation method I used, this was the sequence:

1. Place the water, salt and oil (blend) in the mixer bowl and stir to dissolve the salt.
2. Sift the flour and IDY into a suitable container (I use a plastic bowl).
3. With the flat beater attached, and with the mixer at speed 1, gradually add the flour mixture (I gradually shake the flour mix into the mixer bowl in a somewhat vibrating fashion so it is essentially sprinkled into the mixer bowl).
4. When the dough clears the sides of the mixer bowl, stop the mixer and replace the flat beater attachment with the C-hook. If the dough does not quite clear the sides of the mixer bowl with the flat beater attached, stop the mixer and combine the ingredients by hand to form a dough ball. It need not be smooth at this point but should hold together.
5. With the C-hook attached, knead the dough at speeds 2-3 for about 6 minutes.
6. Stop the mixer and let the dough rest in the mixer bowl, uncovered, for 45 minutes.
7. Form the dough into a ball. This is where I weigh the dough ball and trim it to 10 ounces, if needed, measure the finished dough temperature, put the dough ball into its storage container (with a scattering of cornmeal or semolina at the bottom), and put the two poppy seeds in place, spaced 1" apart.
8. Put the dough within its container, and without the lid, into the refrigerator. Note the time the dough is placed into the refrigerator.
9. After 1 hour, place the lid on the container.

Peter


Peter,

I can understand why you decided to make another De Lorenzo clone dough since JoeyBagadonuts reported what his uncle said.  I still didn't spend enough time on that thread to gather everything in that was posted. 

Good to hear you would characterize your new De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 a success.  Thank you for giving detailed instructions on what you did and how you prepared the dough and how much it fermented and everything else.   

If I try your new formulation this week or next week I will try to remember to bring some poppy seeds home from market.  Mine disappeared mysteriously at home.  I will try to copy out your detailed instructions. 

This is my dough ball this afternoon at market without poppy seeds.  I did sift the flour and will see how it goes tomorrow in opening the dough ball and with baking in the deck oven.  I am not having much high hopes for baking in the deck oven though.  I did remember to take my IR gun to market today to see what temperatures the perimeters are. 

Norma
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Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #751 on: October 01, 2013, 02:00:18 AM »
Tim,

You did a great job with your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza. You could have fooled me.

The 0.30% IDY in the clone dough formulation you used does a nice job for a roughly two-day cold fermentation. It is a sweet spot for most two-day cold fermented doughs. Under normal conditions, you shouldn't get either underfermentation or overfermentation. In my case, my objective has been to try to make a dough that behaves and performs just like the Robbinsville dough balls that I have seen in photos and videos.

As for your flour blend, next time you might try a blend of 69% All Trumps high-gluten flour and 31% Western Family all-purpose flour. As best I can tell from the Western Family website (specifically, the Nutrition Facts), the Western Family all-purpose flour has a nominal protein content of 10%. Using that number and the protein content of the All Trumps flour (14.2%) in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, to get a protein content of 12.9% for the blend, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent flour, you want to use the 69%/31% apportionment mentioned above.

Your oil blend is fine. It is perhaps better than what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using, and assuredly more expensive. You would have to try an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil to see if you can detect a flavor difference. At 2%, you might be able to notice a difference. At 1%, which is a lower value that I have been testing, I'd be surprised if you could detect a flavor difference.

You indicated that you ended up with a 288 gram dough ball. What I have been doing is trimming my overweight dough balls back to about 284 grams, which is about 10 ounces. I do this because I want all of my test dough balls to be the exact same weight. In your case, you don't have to be as fussy since a difference of four grams is not going to have much affect on the final pizza.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the compliments on my pizza and for letting me know the correct ratio of All Trumps Flour to Western Family AP flour in order to get a 12.9% protein blend.  I considered just using KABF since it was roughly the same protein content (12.7%), but then I wondered how important the Potassium Bromate in the Pillsbury flour is to the finished characteristics of this crust.  At some point, I will have to test both, side by side.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:44:38 AM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #752 on: October 01, 2013, 02:24:40 AM »
Tim,

I agree you did a great job on a De Lorenzo's clone pizza. ;D  Your experiment shows a De Lorenzo's pizza can be made in a home oven with a baking steel which is good news.  Nice job all around.  I really like your nice coloration on the bottom crust.   

Your cornmeal is a lot yellower in color than mine.  I think it is interesting about the different colors of semolina and cornmeal.

Norma


Norma,

Thanks for your comments on my pizza.  The different colors of cornmeal and semolina are quite interesting and it sometimes makes it hard to distinguish between the two.  I've found that the lighting can also make a big difference when it comes to photographing pizzas.  My kitchen lights give off a yellowish hue, so everything tends to look too yellow in my pictures unless I switch off those lights and grab a desk light with a whiter color of light.  Fortunately my family usually waits patiently as I walk around the darkened kitchen with my camera.   :-D

After thoroughly enjoying the De Lorenzo clone pizza, but wishing the middle portion of the pizza were a little less soggy, I went back and watched the video you posted at the De Lorenzo/Hudson St.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403  I noticed at about 1:39 in the video the pie man held up what appears to be a totally finished pie and squirted olive oil on it, carefully going only around the rim of the pie.   So it appears that (at least) sometimes olive oil is added at the end of the bake, and this oil is added only to the cornicione.

-Tim

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #753 on: October 01, 2013, 02:46:33 AM »
Well, I tried my first "formula" ever on this board yesterday.

. . .

I am not a baker, and don't aspire to be. This is fun, and most efforts are pleasing. But....it's way more difficult to do things meaningfully, as articulated on this thread, as opposed to a couple of tablespoons of this and that...so, hats off to you guys.


Stuart,

Nice job on your pizza.  I know what you mean about it being a bit difficult to take precise measurements rather than just improvising a little of this and a little of that.  It's great when people take the time and effort to do this though, so that their results might be more reproducible from person to person.  I think your pies look, in many ways a LOT like the De Lorenzo Tomato Pies and I believe you when you say they taste great.   :)  I hope that sometime when you make your big 16 cup batch of dough, you'll weigh all your ingredients and jot them down.  In addition to a regular kitchen scale, you may need to get one of these tiny scales from amazon to measure the weight of yeast and such, but they only cost about 10 bucks and are great for this purpose.   http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Signature-AWS-100-BLK-Digital/dp/B0012LOQUQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1380609723&sr=1-1

If you do this, Peter can convert your recipe to Baker's Percentages and we can compare what you've been doing all these years to what we're doing now, and hopefully can combine the best of both approaches.

--Tim
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:38:44 PM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #754 on: October 01, 2013, 07:11:33 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for your comments on my pizza.  The different colors of cornmeal and semolina are quite interesting and it sometimes makes it hard to distinguish between the two.  I've found that the lighting can also make a big difference when it comes to photographing pizzas.  My kitchen lights give off a yellowish hue, so everything tends to look too yellow in my pictures unless I switch off those lights and grab a desk light with a whiter color of light.  Fortunately my family usually waits patiently as I walk around the darkened kitchen with my camera.   :-D

After thoroughly enjoying the De Lorenzo clone pizza, but wishing the middle portion of the pizza were a little less soggy, I went back and watched the video you posted at the De Lorenzo/Hudson St.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403  I noticed at about 1:39 in the video the pie man held up what appears to be a totally finished pie and squirted olive oil on it, carefully going only around the rim of the pie.   So it appears that (at least) sometimes olive oil is added at the end of the bake, and this oil is added only to the cornicione.

-Tim


Tim,

Lol about your family usually waiting patiently as you walk around the darkened kitchen with your camera to be able to take better photos of your pizzas.   :-D

I have had some of the same problems in my deck oven in getting the middle portion of the pizza more crispy.  I don't have my deck oven turned up as high as De Lorenzo's and my oven doesn't bake the same as De Lorenzo's better deck ovens.  De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is baking at a fairly high temperature for about 8 minutes.  In my opinion that is a long bake time at higher temperatures for such a thin pizza.  I did not watch enough when I took that video, but even if that man did only add the oil around the edges of the pizza I would think the pizza in the middle still would be crispy if oil was added at the end of the bake in the middle.  In my Blackstone the middle of the pizza did stay crisp even though I did squirt oil around the middle at the end of the bake. 

Norma
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Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #755 on: October 01, 2013, 12:37:47 PM »
Yes...I have a kitchen scale; but, I just bought the one in your link.

I, too, am curious, but this is borderline too geeky for me. I love Delorenzo's (Robbinsville), and consider both Sam and Gary Amico artisans in the best sense. But, I have no aspirations of figuring out how they do it; just to making pies in a way that pleases me and my friends and family...with their product as the ideal.  And, I've been pretty satisfied over the years, though a trip to Hudson/Robbinsville is always still a treat.

I do enjoy reading this thread, though...and will doubtlessly try another "formulation". I was especially impressed by just how extensible? the formulation was, without breaking. I've watched Sam stretch his skins a "million" times...and had never gotten a dough that seemed like it could do that..before the other day.

Keep up the good work.
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #756 on: October 02, 2013, 08:43:06 AM »
This post is to explain how the De Lorenzo's clone pizza went using Peter's #5 De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.  The dough ball sat out longer than I had wanted it to and it was hotter yesterday at market.  My regular dough balls didn't ferment a lot at room temperature yesterday when I let them sit out as long, but since the De Lorenzo clone dough ball is smaller in size I can understand how it would ferment more.  As I posted before I did not use the poppy seed trick, but saw how much the dough ball expanded had risen while it warmed up.  The dough ball was very easy to press on and open.  There were no fermentation bubbles in the dough when pressing or opening the skin.  I know from the previous experiments that my kind of semolina I used is not the greatest to use on the marble table to try and slide the skin around on.  When I tried to slide the skin around over the marble table with the semolina side down the skin did not want to slide at all.  I turned the skin over and it slid much better.  I saw when I went to the nut and dried fruit stand at market yesterday that they sold cornmeal that looked like it was a brighter color of yellow.  I purchased that to try next.  It feels like it might be slippery in texture.  The cornmeal I had purchase from the Country Store is not that yellow in color or doesn't feel slippery in texture.  The  last photo is of the cornmeal I purchased at market yesterday. 

I thought I saw some dark spots in the dough ball when I went to open it, but I am not sure if they really were spots, but I took the dough ball outside to take a photo.  Those really tiny dark spots were not there when I took the dough ball out of the deli case to warm up. 

The skin did stretch easily to 14”, but it could not be tossed.  The pizza was dressed with Red Pack tomatoes and 6-in 1's, Sorrento part skin mozzarella and a drizzle of olive oil.  I tried to drizzle a little olive oil on the skin edges, but as can be seen I did get some olive oil on the wooden peel.  The pizza slid into the oven okay though.  The pizza was baked in the four corners of my oven for 8 minutes 45 seconds.  I took the video of Steve cutting the pizza.  If anyone hears me saying I did not understand what was being said at the end of that video that was about a customer that comes each week to purchase pizza.  Although I am happy he comes to purchase pizza each week and he says I make the best pizzas he has ever eaten Steve and I get sick of hearing all what he has to say when he chats with us.  That customer came yesterday when I was ready to open this dough ball.  He is the man in the bib overalls.  I did not try to get a photo of him, but he was just standing there talking when I took the photo.  That customer says he was a pharmacist, a judge, a lawyer and many other things.  He goes on talking and talking each time he comes to my pizza stand and always talks about all the women he has each week and always shows Steve photos and texts he gets from different women.  Steve gets sick of hearing what he says and so do I.  He says he is married, but it is an open marriage.  I could go on and on in all he says he has, but just a few things are he says he owns some Picasso's, loads of silver bars and so many other things that is quite hard to believe what he says.  He is very intelligent though.  I made the mistake about asking if he understood about the new healthcare reform yesterday.  I sure was not listening to what he had to say yesterday about that because I had this pizza to try to understand.  That is just one interesting part, or not so interesting part about being at market and talking to different customers.   

This pizza was crisp when cut, but it was not crispy or crunchy enough.  At some places in the pizza it was crispy and crunchy enough, but that was not over the whole bottom crust of the pizza.  I tried to show Steve and explain the parts of the bottom crust I though did taste right and that was in the last photo of the bottom crust where it was darker.  The rim crust did have about the right texture of crispy and crunchy, but still was easy to eat.  The pizza was good though, so it was not a complete failure. 

I took some temperatures yesterday way before I made this pizza and they ran from about 525-535 degrees on the sides of the stone.  I really don't think my deck oven is the right place to try out this type of pizza.

I did have a chance to speak with the market manager yesterday when he was going by my stand and I called him over to speak with me.  The good news that came from that conversation is that there will probably be a place to sit down now right near me where a candle man left this week.  The market manager said they might install a ATM there too.  There is only one ATM at regular market and that is in the office.  The market manager also spoke to me about getting the maintenance men to help me move all of my things out of my stand to be able to get a new floor installed.  The one photo is of where seating is soon supposed to be. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5uk4yLpDM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj5uk4yLpDM</a>


Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #757 on: October 02, 2013, 08:47:36 AM »
Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #758 on: October 02, 2013, 08:49:47 AM »
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #759 on: October 02, 2013, 10:20:26 AM »
Norma,

Thank you for running the latest test using the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #5. At least that test confirmed that by using a small amount  of yeast (0.14% IDY in this case) it is possible to make a dough that can cold ferment for two days and not be prone to bubbling and can be fairly easily opened and stretched to the desired size. I would imagine that a similar dough made using a commercial mixer would be even better to work with.

Rather than give up trying to use your Baker's Pride deck oven at market, I have a couple of thoughts. One thing you might try is to keep the pizza out of the oven for about an extra minute or two once you remove it to put on the remaining mozzarella cheese. Then return the pizza to the oven for a final minute or two of baking. If you are afraid that the bottom might burn, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza. You indicated that the total bake time for the latest pizza was 8 minutes and 45 seconds, which is a bit more than the typical bake time at De Lorenzo/Sloan. As you will recall, from what we have read and heard, a typical De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza takes about 10 minutes to bake, at a temperature of 550 degrees F. Maybe the extra minute or two in your deck oven will dry the pizza out a bit more and make it crispier and maybe even with more char at the rim.

Another possibility is to try the De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #6 as set forth at Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. The main reason I came up with that formulation was to produce a slightly drier dough (by lowering the hydration to 56%) but, by using an even smaller amount of yeast (0.12% IDY), plus a rest/fermentation period before refrigerating, the dough could be used after one day or after two days.

If I were to speculate, I would guess that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville would prefer to make the dough one day and use it the next day. That makes dough preparation and management simple and conserves on cooler storage space, which can be a valuable thing if you are serving hundreds of pizzas a day. But, at the same time, if there is any leftover dough, it can be held over another day, and possibly a third day. Beyond that, it would perhaps be necessary to add some sugar to the dough. But, by virtue of the small amount of yeast, the risk of overfermentation, along with bubbling, would be fairly small even after two or maybe three days. However, as I have noted before, bubbling is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it may be that bubbling that is evident in some of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas we have seen. Pizzerias work all of the time with dough balls that are in different stages of fermentation. When one of the De Lorenzo workers, a server who made dough on Sundays, was quoted in the Trenton thread at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 to the effect that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough was cold fermented in a cooler "for a couple days at least", he may well have been thinking of a normal multi-day scenario that could include one day, two days or maybe even three days. In such a case, you want the dough to survive all three periods without overfermenting. I know that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formuation #6 should work for two days. Beyond that I cannot say since I did not test for three days.

Peter