Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 40305 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #840 on: October 10, 2013, 11:02:39 AM »
I've made several attempts. I think I posted some pictures in this thread a while back. I used my home oven on a stone.

Craig,

I don't think I recall the several attempts you made.  Thanks for telling me what oven set up you used.  Did your attempts on a De Lorenzo pizza get crispy on the bottom crust?

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #841 on: October 10, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »
Craig,

I don't think I recall the several attempts you made.  Thanks for telling me what oven set up you used.  Did your attempts on a De Lorenzo pizza get crispy on the bottom crust?

Norma

Yes. The family liked them. My wife really like it.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

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I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #843 on: October 10, 2013, 11:58:36 AM »
Stuart,

Welcome to the club.  Now that you have your mini-digital scale, you'll probably be needing one of these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004E3EL7W/?tag=pizzamaking-20   ;D


 ;D

Not me.....i don't need to protect my pockets from the tomato sauce.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 08:40:35 PM by Steve »
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #844 on: October 10, 2013, 12:52:20 PM »
Interesting that you plan to make another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test dough such a #9 but run it out to two days and use a hydration of 57.5%.  I think that would work, because the almost 2 day cold fermented dough that  I just made might not have showed signs of bubbling if I could have used it when I wanted to.  I am aware that it possible to make a no yeast pizza dough from the experiments I did on the Focaccia di Recco dough and the Ultra Thin pizza crusts I fooled around with for the matzo pizzas. 
Norma,

I decided after all to decrease the amount of yeast for the two day cold fermentation, to 0.10% IDY. I did this on the theory that a dough does not need any yeast to be formed with ease into a compliant skin with a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I'm hoping that the skin will also be free of bubbling after two days. If that materializes, it might teach us something about the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #845 on: October 10, 2013, 01:35:51 PM »
This was my first attempt: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg267633.html#msg267633


Craig,

Thanks for the link to where you made that tomato pie.  I have to do something about my memory because I didn't even recall you posted about that, but I posted back to you.

Yes. The family liked them. My wife really like it.


Great to hear your family and wife liked your tomato pie.  8)

Norma
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:38:01 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #846 on: October 10, 2013, 01:41:39 PM »
Norma,

I decided after all to decrease the amount of yeast for the two day cold fermentation, to 0.10% IDY. I did this on the theory that a dough does not need any yeast to be formed with ease into a compliant skin with a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I'm hoping that the skin will also be free of bubbling after two days. If that materializes, it might teach us something about the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.

Peter

Peter,

Good you decided to decrease the amount of yeast for the two day cold fermenation to 0.10% IDY.  I think your idea was good and might teach us something about the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough if things work out right.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #847 on: October 11, 2013, 07:32:40 AM »
I talked to Trenton Bill last evening and he also confirmed that De Lorenzo/Hudson used to use the Santuzzi canola/olive oil blend just as MTPIZZA posted at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44299.html#msg44299  He recalls the store down the street selling it too.  I tried to look up the Santuzzi canola/olive oil blend on Google images and could not find any.  I guess it doesn't really matter about the blend of oils.   

Bill also made another attempt on a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza yesterday in his Blackstone unit.  His formulation was along the lines of Peter's #9 formulation at Reply 816 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282853.html#msg282853  but he used a little bit of sugar in his formulation to try to get the bottom crust to brown better and he used a dough ball weigh of 10.5 oz.  Bill said his De Lorenzo's attempt was very good and had the right bottom crisp and crunch, but for some reason it did not taste exactly like a De Lorenzo pizza.  Bill baked his De Lorenzo's attempt at 600 degrees F.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #848 on: October 11, 2013, 08:57:03 AM »
Norma,

Like you, I did a fair amount of searching on the "Santuzzi" oil and came up empty. I agree with you that it is unlikely that the oil blend is a major factor in the success of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough or the baked pizza itself (when the oil blend is topically applied). As previously noted, the oil blend is used in small amounts and, moreover, contains a small amount of the more flavorful and rich tasting olive oil with the rest being a fairly bland soybean or canola oil. Also, you will recall that we observed different colored oils in the plastic squeeze containers shown in the various photos and videos. So, De Lorenzo/Robbinsville itself may not be wedded to any particular blend.

With respect to the flavor of Trenton Bill's latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza, do you know offhand how long he baked the pizza in his BlackStone unit? I think it would be completely fortuitous if he were able to achieve in the BlackStone oven the identical results as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville achieves with its Blodgett deck ovens. Also, there are literally hundreds of components produced by the Maillard reactions to contribute to the flavor of the finished crust, as well as contribute to crust coloration. I would imagine that those components would be different for the two types of ovens.

FYI, for fun, but also for my own edification, I decided to make a yeast-free test dough such as was set forth in Reply 833 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283120.html#msg283120. The formulation for that test dough is very similar to earlier De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs but for the omission of the yeast and a slight increase in the hydration value. I should be able to post the results sometime after noon today.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #849 on: October 11, 2013, 10:32:53 AM »
Norma,

Like you, I did a fair amount of searching on the "Santuzzi" oil and came up empty. I agree with you that it is unlikely that the oil blend is a major factor in the success of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough or the baked pizza itself (when the oil blend is topically applied). As previously noted, the oil blend is used in small amounts and, moreover, contains a small amount of the more flavorful and rich tasting olive oil with the rest being a fairly bland soybean or canola oil. Also, you will recall that we observed different colored oils in the plastic squeeze containers shown in the various photos and videos. So, De Lorenzo/Robbinsville itself may not be wedded to any particular blend.

With respect to the flavor of Trenton Bill's latest De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza, do you know offhand how long he baked the pizza in his BlackStone unit? I think it would be completely fortuitous if he were able to achieve in the BlackStone oven the identical results as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville achieves with its Blodgett deck ovens. Also, there are literally hundreds of components produced by the Maillard reactions to contribute to the flavor of the finished crust, as well as contribute to crust coloration. I would imagine that those components would be different for the two types of ovens.

FYI, for fun, but also for my own edification, I decided to make a yeast-free test dough such as was set forth in Reply 833 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283120.html#msg283120. The formulation for that test dough is very similar to earlier De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs but for the omission of the yeast and a slight increase in the hydration value. I should be able to post the results sometime after noon today.

Peter


Peter,

I do recall that we observed different colored oils in the plastic squeeze containers shown in the various photos and videos.  I agree that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville may not be wedded to any particular blend.

I did not know how long Trenton Bill baked his pizza in the Blackstone unit.  I did call him and he said he really doesn't know how long he baked the pizza, but when he measures the temperature of the bottom stone with his IR gun is is varied across the stone, with one place measuring 575, another at 600 and another at 617 degrees F.  I have observed that from using my Blackstone unit too.  I wonder about even using the BS now to get about the same results as De Lorenzo/Robbbinsivlle  I can understand there are literally hundreds of components produced by the Maillard reaction to contribute to the flavor of the finished crust, as well as contribute to crust coloration.  I can understand those components would be different for the two types of ovens.  Even the platter height on the BS makes some differences.

Bill isn't giving up and has another dough ready for today.  The last dough he used almost like your #9 formulation he omitted oil from the dough to see what would happen.  For his dough today he added the oil back in.

Lol, about making a yeast-free test dough.  I will be curious to see how that works out.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #850 on: October 11, 2013, 03:07:12 PM »
Lol, about making a yeast-free test dough.  I will be curious to see how that works out.

Norma,

I am pleased to report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough was a huge success. It passed with flying colors. The dough ball performed as well as any I have tried to date. To recapitulate, the dough formulation as premised on the use of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour was as follows:

Yeast-Free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.25%):
188.54 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.41 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a 14" skin; corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; I used KABF with about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9% (the same as for the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour); to prepare the dough, I used the dough preparation method as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 (but excluding the step pertaining to the yeast).

After removing the dough ball from the refrigerator after one day of cold fermentation, I let it temper at room temperature for about one hour, whereupon it was opened to form a skin. All of this went smoothly and quickly, using the skin forming methods as shown in the video you posted during your visit to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville. I had no problem opening up the skin to just about any size I wanted. There was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I did not try to toss and spin the skin but I suspect that it would have been difficult to do so once the skin increased in diameter to over 14".

It is hard to say why the dough ball performed so well. Was it the absence of the yeast or was it because the hydration of the dough was 57.5%? If I had to choose between these two explanations, I would be inclined to say that it was because of the higher hydration value. However, the answer may lie one day ahead with the latest De Lorenzo/Robinsonville clone test dough with the same hydration value (57.5%) but with only 0.10% IDY. I checked that clone test dough a while ago, after one day of cold fermentation, and the poppy seed spacing indicates a rise of about 30-42% (the spacing is so close and tight that it is hard to accurately read the spacing using my ruler). Given my druthers, I would rather that the dough ball expand by less than a doubling after two days of cold fermentation. That would decrease the risk of the dough forming bubbles, both in the dough ball itself and in the skin formed therefrom.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #851 on: October 11, 2013, 03:27:39 PM »
Peter,

Since we know that Deloreznos uses yeast, I'm wondering what your goal is/was in trying a formulation without yeast?

I do know that the one formulation of yours I tried (#4) with probably a lot less yeast than I'd ever used...made a dough for me that was more balanced, ie, I could stretch by hand with less worry of tearing that ever before, so , maybe low yeast contributed to that durability.

thanks
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #852 on: October 11, 2013, 04:36:07 PM »
Since we know that Deloreznos uses yeast, I'm wondering what your goal is/was in trying a formulation without yeast?

Stuart,

Often I will conduct experiments where the sole purpose is to learn something. Usually, I will try to figure things out in advance and then test my thesis with actual experiments. In the most recent case with De Lorenzo's, as I kept lowering and lowering the amount of yeast in order to see what effect that would have on the bubbling phenomenon, I wondered what would happen if I left the yeast out altogether. Most yeast-free doughs that I have seen have tended to be for cracker-style doughs that require rolling the dough out very thinly although there are a few such doughs that produce thicker crusts. I was curious to see an example of the latter type of yeast-free dough. So, I created a test dough to find out, but keeping the formulation in line with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test doughs I have been testing.

The issue of yeast at De Lorenzo's has been shrouded in some doubt and mystery on the forum, and especially in the Trenton thread. One member was sure that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using a natural leavening system. Another member quoted a worker who made dough at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville to the effect that the yeast was something that might have been made specifically for De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, possibly by special order. See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168. Maybe the worker was thinking of fresh yeast since most people do not even know that form of yeast exists because it is so hard to find in supermarkets, where what you will find is dry yeast in packets. Moreover, if we go back to the 1930s/1940s, when the original De Lorenzo dough recipe was created, the predominant yeast used for baking was fresh yeast. ADY came into being after World War II (it was specifically designed for home use), and IDY was created in the 1970s. Sam Amico has said that they use the original dough recipe, but it is hard to say whether that means that they never changed the form of yeast used. Cost shouldn't be a consideration because fresh yeast is usually the cheapest form of commercial yeast available. But you normally have to have big volume to capitalize on its low cost because fresh yeast has a very short shelf life compared with dry yeasts.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #853 on: October 11, 2013, 04:40:05 PM »
Thanks, Peter. I figured you were trying to learn something....but...wonder what you learned here.

By the way..do you bake off the doughs you open...or just toss them out?

Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #854 on: October 11, 2013, 05:01:36 PM »
Stuart,

I will know better on the yeast versus hydration matter tomorrow, hopefully.

I throw away the dough balls. I don't eat a lot of pizza anyway but Texas is not the best place to be baking pizzas in the summertime, and sometimes even later. So far, I have made 22 test dough balls for this project, not counting what I did in the Trenton thread.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 05:07:01 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #855 on: October 11, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »
You are a real pizza "scientist". My only goal here is "good eatin' " by virtue of "good cookin' ".
Stuart

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #856 on: October 11, 2013, 09:01:45 PM »
Norma,

I am pleased to report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough was a huge success. It passed with flying colors. The dough ball performed as well as any I have tried to date. To recapitulate, the dough formulation as premised on the use of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour was as follows:

Yeast-Free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.25%):
188.54 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.41 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a 14" skin; corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; I used KABF with about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9% (the same as for the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour); to prepare the dough, I used the dough preparation method as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 (but excluding the step pertaining to the yeast).

After removing the dough ball from the refrigerator after one day of cold fermentation, I let it temper at room temperature for about one hour, whereupon it was opened to form a skin. All of this went smoothly and quickly, using the skin forming methods as shown in the video you posted during your visit to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville. I had no problem opening up the skin to just about any size I wanted. There was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I did not try to toss and spin the skin but I suspect that it would have been difficult to do so once the skin increased in diameter to over 14".

It is hard to say why the dough ball performed so well. Was it the absence of the yeast or was it because the hydration of the dough was 57.5%? If I had to choose between these two explanations, I would be inclined to say that it was because of the higher hydration value. However, the answer may lie one day ahead with the latest De Lorenzo/Robinsonville clone test dough with the same hydration value (57.5%) but with only 0.10% IDY. I checked that clone test dough a while ago, after one day of cold fermentation, and the poppy seed spacing indicates a rise of about 30-42% (the spacing is so close and tight that it is hard to accurately read the spacing using my ruler). Given my druthers, I would rather that the dough ball expand by less than a doubling after two days of cold fermentation. That would decrease the risk of the dough forming bubbles, both in the dough ball itself and in the skin formed therefrom.

Peter


Peter,

I am glad to hear your report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo clone dough was a huge success and passed with flying colors.  Great that you had no problems opening the skin to just about any size you wanted and there was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility.  I would be inclined to also agree with you that the hydration probably was the factor that the dough ball opened so well.  The bubbling phenomenon in dough is interesting and you sure are going into enough of experiments to find out about what different variables might create the bubbles.

Good luck with the dough ball you made with the same hydration and the 0.10% IDY.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #857 on: October 12, 2013, 07:33:27 AM »
Trenton Bill called me yesterday and said this was his best attempt at a De Lorenzo pizza.  He even said it was better than De Lorenzo pizza.  Trenton Bill emailed me the photo this morning.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #858 on: October 12, 2013, 08:29:37 AM »
Norma,

That is a fine looking pizza.

To be clear in case others are interested, did Trenton Bill use the #9 formulation as set forth at Reply 816 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282853.html#msg282853, including the oil?

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #859 on: October 12, 2013, 12:19:02 PM »
Norma,

That is a fine looking pizza.

To be clear in case others are interested, did Trenton Bill use the #9 formulation as set forth at Reply 816 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282853.html#msg282853, including the oil?

Peter


Peter,

Trenton Bill is going to send me the print out sheet from the Lehmann Calculating tool.  I should have it by Monday if anyone is interested what he used in the formulation.  I know Trenton Bill did tell me he mixed for 15 minutes though.  I think Bill did use a little sugar but he basically used your formulation #9. 

Norma
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