Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 91615 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #850 on: October 11, 2013, 03:07:12 PM »
Lol, about making a yeast-free test dough.  I will be curious to see how that works out.
Norma,

I am pleased to report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough was a huge success. It passed with flying colors. The dough ball performed as well as any I have tried to date. To recapitulate, the dough formulation as premised on the use of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour was as follows:

Yeast-Free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.25%):
188.54 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.41 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a 14" skin; corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; I used KABF with about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9% (the same as for the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour); to prepare the dough, I used the dough preparation method as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 (but excluding the step pertaining to the yeast).

After removing the dough ball from the refrigerator after one day of cold fermentation, I let it temper at room temperature for about one hour, whereupon it was opened to form a skin. All of this went smoothly and quickly, using the skin forming methods as shown in the video you posted during your visit to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville. I had no problem opening up the skin to just about any size I wanted. There was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I did not try to toss and spin the skin but I suspect that it would have been difficult to do so once the skin increased in diameter to over 14".

It is hard to say why the dough ball performed so well. Was it the absence of the yeast or was it because the hydration of the dough was 57.5%? If I had to choose between these two explanations, I would be inclined to say that it was because of the higher hydration value. However, the answer may lie one day ahead with the latest De Lorenzo/Robinsonville clone test dough with the same hydration value (57.5%) but with only 0.10% IDY. I checked that clone test dough a while ago, after one day of cold fermentation, and the poppy seed spacing indicates a rise of about 30-42% (the spacing is so close and tight that it is hard to accurately read the spacing using my ruler). Given my druthers, I would rather that the dough ball expand by less than a doubling after two days of cold fermentation. That would decrease the risk of the dough forming bubbles, both in the dough ball itself and in the skin formed therefrom.

Peter


Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #851 on: October 11, 2013, 03:27:39 PM »
Peter,

Since we know that Deloreznos uses yeast, I'm wondering what your goal is/was in trying a formulation without yeast?

I do know that the one formulation of yours I tried (#4) with probably a lot less yeast than I'd ever used...made a dough for me that was more balanced, ie, I could stretch by hand with less worry of tearing that ever before, so , maybe low yeast contributed to that durability.

thanks
Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #852 on: October 11, 2013, 04:36:07 PM »
Since we know that Deloreznos uses yeast, I'm wondering what your goal is/was in trying a formulation without yeast?
Stuart,

Often I will conduct experiments where the sole purpose is to learn something. Usually, I will try to figure things out in advance and then test my thesis with actual experiments. In the most recent case with De Lorenzo's, as I kept lowering and lowering the amount of yeast in order to see what effect that would have on the bubbling phenomenon, I wondered what would happen if I left the yeast out altogether. Most yeast-free doughs that I have seen have tended to be for cracker-style doughs that require rolling the dough out very thinly although there are a few such doughs that produce thicker crusts. I was curious to see an example of the latter type of yeast-free dough. So, I created a test dough to find out, but keeping the formulation in line with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test doughs I have been testing.

The issue of yeast at De Lorenzo's has been shrouded in some doubt and mystery on the forum, and especially in the Trenton thread. One member was sure that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using a natural leavening system. Another member quoted a worker who made dough at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville to the effect that the yeast was something that might have been made specifically for De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, possibly by special order. See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168. Maybe the worker was thinking of fresh yeast since most people do not even know that form of yeast exists because it is so hard to find in supermarkets, where what you will find is dry yeast in packets. Moreover, if we go back to the 1930s/1940s, when the original De Lorenzo dough recipe was created, the predominant yeast used for baking was fresh yeast. ADY came into being after World War II (it was specifically designed for home use), and IDY was created in the 1970s. Sam Amico has said that they use the original dough recipe, but it is hard to say whether that means that they never changed the form of yeast used. Cost shouldn't be a consideration because fresh yeast is usually the cheapest form of commercial yeast available. But you normally have to have big volume to capitalize on its low cost because fresh yeast has a very short shelf life compared with dry yeasts.

Peter

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #853 on: October 11, 2013, 04:40:05 PM »
Thanks, Peter. I figured you were trying to learn something....but...wonder what you learned here.

By the way..do you bake off the doughs you open...or just toss them out?

Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #854 on: October 11, 2013, 05:01:36 PM »
Stuart,

I will know better on the yeast versus hydration matter tomorrow, hopefully.

I throw away the dough balls. I don't eat a lot of pizza anyway but Texas is not the best place to be baking pizzas in the summertime, and sometimes even later. So far, I have made 22 test dough balls for this project, not counting what I did in the Trenton thread.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 05:07:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #855 on: October 11, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »
You are a real pizza "scientist". My only goal here is "good eatin' " by virtue of "good cookin' ".
Stuart

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #856 on: October 11, 2013, 09:01:45 PM »
Norma,

I am pleased to report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough was a huge success. It passed with flying colors. The dough ball performed as well as any I have tried to date. To recapitulate, the dough formulation as premised on the use of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour was as follows:

Yeast-Free De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.25%):
188.54 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.41 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a 14" skin; corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; I used KABF with about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9% (the same as for the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour); to prepare the dough, I used the dough preparation method as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529 (but excluding the step pertaining to the yeast).

After removing the dough ball from the refrigerator after one day of cold fermentation, I let it temper at room temperature for about one hour, whereupon it was opened to form a skin. All of this went smoothly and quickly, using the skin forming methods as shown in the video you posted during your visit to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville. I had no problem opening up the skin to just about any size I wanted. There was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility. I did not try to toss and spin the skin but I suspect that it would have been difficult to do so once the skin increased in diameter to over 14".

It is hard to say why the dough ball performed so well. Was it the absence of the yeast or was it because the hydration of the dough was 57.5%? If I had to choose between these two explanations, I would be inclined to say that it was because of the higher hydration value. However, the answer may lie one day ahead with the latest De Lorenzo/Robinsonville clone test dough with the same hydration value (57.5%) but with only 0.10% IDY. I checked that clone test dough a while ago, after one day of cold fermentation, and the poppy seed spacing indicates a rise of about 30-42% (the spacing is so close and tight that it is hard to accurately read the spacing using my ruler). Given my druthers, I would rather that the dough ball expand by less than a doubling after two days of cold fermentation. That would decrease the risk of the dough forming bubbles, both in the dough ball itself and in the skin formed therefrom.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad to hear your report that the yeast-free De Lorenzo clone dough was a huge success and passed with flying colors.  Great that you had no problems opening the skin to just about any size you wanted and there was a nice balance between elasticity and extensibility.  I would be inclined to also agree with you that the hydration probably was the factor that the dough ball opened so well.  The bubbling phenomenon in dough is interesting and you sure are going into enough of experiments to find out about what different variables might create the bubbles.

Good luck with the dough ball you made with the same hydration and the 0.10% IDY.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #857 on: October 12, 2013, 07:33:27 AM »
Trenton Bill called me yesterday and said this was his best attempt at a De Lorenzo pizza.  He even said it was better than De Lorenzo pizza.  Trenton Bill emailed me the photo this morning.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #858 on: October 12, 2013, 08:29:37 AM »
Norma,

That is a fine looking pizza.

To be clear in case others are interested, did Trenton Bill use the #9 formulation as set forth at Reply 816 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282853.html#msg282853, including the oil?

Peter


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #859 on: October 12, 2013, 12:19:02 PM »
Norma,

That is a fine looking pizza.

To be clear in case others are interested, did Trenton Bill use the #9 formulation as set forth at Reply 816 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg282853.html#msg282853, including the oil?

Peter

Peter,

Trenton Bill is going to send me the print out sheet from the Lehmann Calculating tool.  I should have it by Monday if anyone is interested what he used in the formulation.  I know Trenton Bill did tell me he mixed for 15 minutes though.  I think Bill did use a little sugar but he basically used your formulation #9. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #860 on: October 12, 2013, 07:58:15 PM »
In case anyone is interested I talked to Trenton Bill and he said his mail to me did not go out this morning so he gave me the percentages he used for his pizza dough.

100% Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour
57% hydration
.40% IDY
1.5% sea salt
1.8% olive oil
.06% sugar

bowl compensation residue 1.5% dough ball weight 10.5 oz.  Mixed in his Kitchen Aid mixer for 15 minutes on speed 2.  Trenton Bill made the dough in the morning and let it sit out at room temperature until the dough looked like it about doubled in volume.

Sauce was 2 cans Red Pack whole tomatoes crushed by hand (with juice) and 1 can Sclafani crushed tomatoes.  He then used 6 oz. of the tomato blend added ¾ cup water, a pinch of basil and ½ teaspoon sugar.  He said the added sugar was critical to the taste of the blended sauce.  Bill drizzled about 1 ½ teaspoon of olive oil over the sauce and cheese.  The cheese used was Maggio whole milk mozzarella.  Baked at 600 degrees F in the Blackstone unit for about 8 minutes and he turned the pizza different times and added olive oil in the last minute of the baked.  Bill did not add olive oil on the rim of the pizza. 

Norma

Edit:  Bill called me this morning and told me I posted what he calls his master sauce wrong.  The 3/4 cup of water is added to the Sclafani crushed tomatoes.  6 oz. of the sauce blend was used on his pizza.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 07:58:53 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #861 on: October 12, 2013, 08:53:10 PM »
Norma,

All of my experiments have entailed cold fermented doughs since that is what the De Lorenzo's have done and continue to do according to the reports on this facet of the De Lorenzo business. However, Trenton Bill's modification has merit because it demonstrates how to make a same-day dough. That can have value. If he wishes, Trenton Bill can increase the yeast to about 0.50% IDY to speed up the fermentation process and shorten the window of usability of the dough. To make an emergency version that is usable in a couple hours or so, he can boost the yeast to around 0.80% IDY and use much warmer water.

In all of the above cases, it is a good idea to add some sugar to the dough. However, I think I would use more than 0.06%.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 09:04:40 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #862 on: October 12, 2013, 09:26:49 PM »
Norma,

All of my experiments have entailed cold fermented doughs since that is what the De Lorenzo's have done and continue to do according to the reports on this facet of the De Lorenzo business. However, Trenton Bill's modification has merit because it demonstrates how to make a same-day dough. That can have value. If he wishes, Trenton Bill can increase the yeast to about 0.50% IDY to speed up the fermentation process and shorten the window of usability of the dough. To make an emergency version that is usable in a couple hours or so, he can boost the yeast to around 0.80% IDY and use much warmer water.

In all of the above cases, it is a good idea to add some sugar to the dough. However, I think I would use more than 0.06%.

Peter

Peter,

I think Trenton Bill was trying so many times to make a De Lorenzo's pizza that he gave up on cold fermenting and that is why he made some same day doughs.  Trenton Bill said he has to stop making so many attempts at a De Lorenzo's pizza because he is gaining weight from eating so many of them.  :-D  At least he was satisfied with his attempt, or more than than satisfied and said he now can start making some more for his brother.  I am sure Bill will look at your post about increasing the yeast to speed up the fermentation process of he wants to make a faster room temperature dough.  Thanks for posting it is a good idea to add some sugar to a room fermenting dough.  What amount of sugar would you add for a same day dough since you posted that you think you would use more then 0.06%? 

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #863 on: October 12, 2013, 09:38:51 PM »
Norma,

On second thought, if Trenton Bill is using his BlackStone oven, he may not need to add any more sugar since it appears that he got adequate crust browning, at least on top.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #864 on: October 13, 2013, 08:32:24 AM »
I was watching this video again to see how much of the tomato blend Gary Amico added to the last pizzas he made at De Lorenzo/Hudson.  It looks to me that there are more of the tomato blend applied that I thought before.  It also shows how much oil Gary Amico applies before the pizza goes into the oven.  It doesn't look to me like much oil is applied.  I am not sure what was said near the end of the video, but it sounded to me like someone said the tomato pie had to be checked in about two minutes.  It looks to me like the pie is rotated some. 
 

 
I think on this bloggers site that it shows what looks like more of the tomato blend than I have been applying too.
 
http://fussingwithforks.com/article/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-in-trenton-nj/
 
What I really wonder about is if oil is applied to the whole rim near the end of the bake.  Some of photos of the pizzas I have looked at really don't look like olive oil is applied to the rim.  One of those photos is at a bloggers review.  http://pwblogger.com/articles/8473/food--restaurant-review  Some photos on the web show a glistening rim crust while other photos really don't show that in my opinion.  I am trying to figure out how to apply oil to the rim.
 
The last photo below of a De Lorenzo tomato pie was on a myspace page, but the myspace page does not have a link anymore.
 
The photo of Chick De Lorenzo holding a tomato pie a long while ago does not appear to me to look like the same thin rimmed crust of today.  Maybe because it is an older photo that might be why the rim crust looks bigger to my eyes.

In my opinion the tomato pie beside Gary Amico looks like it has a fair amount of the tomato blend applied.
 
Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #865 on: October 13, 2013, 09:19:43 AM »
Norma,

I made the same observation on the amount of tomatoes used on the De Lorenzo pizzas in the first paragraph of Reply 722 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281257.html#msg281257.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #866 on: October 13, 2013, 10:13:38 AM »
Good luck with the dough ball you made with the same hydration and the 0.10% IDY.
Norma,

The results using 0.10% IDY for a two day cold fermentation, along with a hydration of 57.5%, were successful. This was the specific De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation I used (but with KABF and about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG, as noted below):

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.10%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.35%):
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.34 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs (at a temperature of 60 degrees F)
0.19 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

After one day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 30-42%, as previously noted. After two days of cold fermentation, the poppy seed spacing indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of 67.5%. There is that magic number that keeps showing up. I believe that the dough could have gone another day. Through the two days of cold fermentation, there was no bubbling of the dough ball.

I let the dough ball proof at room temperature for about 1 1/4 hours whereupon I opened it up to form a skin. As with my more recent test doughs with a hydration of around 57% (in this case, 57.5%), I had no trouble opening up the dough ball and forming a skin of up to 14", and even larger. The skin was not tossable, however. In retrospect, I perhaps should not have tempered the dough ball as long as I did because there were some soft bubbles that formed in the skin. Yesterday, the temperature where I live in Texas reached 92 degrees and my kitchen was warmer than usual so that didn't help matters. This got me thinking about the temperatures that prevail near the ovens at Robbinsville. From the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm, it appears that there is room for three dough boxes below the central working station (with the marble or granite top) and that the dough boxes are not refrigerated at that station. Also, dough balls are placed on the marble or granite surface pending use. I'm sure that they have figured out how best to cope with their ambient temperatures.

By way of summary, the tests I have conducted to date appear to demonstrate that (1) using low yeast and low fermentation levels (through cold fermentation) are conducive to forming dough balls and skins that have either no bubbling or small amounts of bubbling; (2) relatively high hydration values produce dough balls that are easier to open up to form skins than dough balls with relatively low hydration values; and (3) the selection of thickness factor values can affect how the skins handle. Of course, using a flour with good gluten formation characteristics is also important, and the use of oil (blend) can yield some improvements in extensibility as well as provide some flavor.

Peter


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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #867 on: October 13, 2013, 11:16:15 AM »
Norma,

The results using 0.10% IDY for a two day cold fermentation, along with a hydration of 57.5%, were successful. This was the specific De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation I used (but with KABF and about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG, as noted below):

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.10%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.35%):
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.34 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs (at a temperature of 60 degrees F)
0.19 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

After one day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 30-42%, as previously noted. After two days of cold fermentation, the poppy seed spacing indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of 67.5%. There is that magic number that keeps showing up. I believe that the dough could have gone another day. Through the two days of cold fermentation, there was no bubbling of the dough ball.

I let the dough ball proof at room temperature for about 1 1/4 hours whereupon I opened it up to form a skin. As with my more recent test doughs with a hydration of around 57% (in this case, 57.5%), I had no trouble opening up the dough ball and forming a skin of up to 14", and even larger. The skin was not tossable, however. In retrospect, I perhaps should not have tempered the dough ball as long as I did because there were some soft bubbles that formed in the skin. Yesterday, the temperature where I live in Texas reached 92 degrees and my kitchen was warmer than usual so that didn't help matters. This got me thinking about the temperatures that prevail near the ovens at Robbinsville. From the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm, it appears that there is room for three dough boxes below the central working station (with the marble or granite top) and that the dough boxes are not refrigerated at that station. Also, dough balls are placed on the marble or granite surface pending use. I'm sure that they have figured out how best to cope with their ambient temperatures.

By way of summary, the tests I have conducted to date appear to demonstrate that (1) using low yeast and low fermentation levels (through cold fermentation) are conducive to forming dough balls and skins that have either no bubbling or small amounts of bubbling; (2) relatively high hydration values produce dough balls that are easier to open up to form skins than dough balls with relatively low hydration values; and (3) the selection of thickness factor values can affect how the skins handle. Of course, using a flour with good gluten formation characteristics is also important, and the use of oil (blend) can yield some improvements in extensibility as well as provide some flavor.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining in detail the results of your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10.  I am glad you had good results. 

To answer what you think might be the prevailing temperatures near the ovens at Robbinsville when I was there I was not right next to the ovens but I was near where they were assembling the pizzas and since it was air-conditioned it was somewhat cool where I stood to watch.  If the dough balls were stored right on the other side of that high counter I would not think it would be too hot there.

I am not sure if I am going to try your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville #10 clone dough formulation at market in my deck oven or at home in the Blackstone unit. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #868 on: October 13, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
I was also looking at this photo of Gary Amico putting one of the last pizzas in a box.  I wonder if that was part of the kitchen at De Lorenzo/Sloan or was in Gary Amico's kitchen.  There does appear to be a big cooler in the photo.

This is what the caption says. 
De Lorenzo Tomato Pies owner Gary Amico puts pizza in a box for customers as the famed establishment cooked up their final pizza in Trenton on Sunday, January 15, 2012. Andrew Miller/For The Times of Trenton

Another photo of one of the last tomato pies from the same article.  To my eyes that rim looks like it has a lot of char.
 
All of the last photos at De Lorenzo/Hudson are at http://timesoftrenton.zenfolio.com/p185230782/h36E95AA5#h36e95aa5 if anyone is interested.

This is another photo on foodspotting of a De Lorenzo pizza it says was taken at De Lorenzo's in Hamilton Square, NJ.  The top pizza does look like it has char on the edges, which Trenton Bill's pizza and mine did not have.

Another photo of leftover cold slices at http://njepicurean.blogspot.com/2009/10/in-search-of-perfect-college-and.html
 
I don't know if anyone is interested, but this is an old article about Joe's Tomato pies history
.
Trenton Bill told me before he recalls when Gary Amico used to place mounds of cheese on the pizzas at De Lorenzo/Sloan and then put the tomatoes in-between the mounds of Maggio cheese. 

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #869 on: October 13, 2013, 07:45:42 PM »
I was curious about the leftover De Lorenzo/Sloan frozen dough ball in trying a pizza with it and also to see if the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough was any good after it was frozen so long.  I did not take any special steps to freeze the dough ball that I had done the hydration tests on.  The dough ball was just placed into a plastic bag after pieces were picked out of it and put into the freezer.  I let the dough ball thaw out while I did some errands this afternoon.  The dough ball was almost unfrozen until I returned home and I just time defrosted it a little in the microwave.  The dough ball sure looked like a mess and I didn't have high hopes of it turning into a good pizza.  The dough ball weighed 15.2 oz. and I cut off pieces until the dough weighed 10.5 oz.  I did try to flatten the dough ball some and press it together before cutting off some of it. 

I then heated up the Blackstone unit to about 600 degrees F and put a plastic container over the dough ball until the Blackstone unit heated up.  The Blackstone did not take long to heat up.  The De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball did smelled yeasty so I did not think I had killed all of the yeast from freezing the dough ball.

The dough ball really was not that hard to press out and open the rest of the way, but it was not as easy as some of my attempts.  The skin was fairly fragile when opening it to 13”. 

Until the dough ball was opened and dressed the Blackstone unit was at about 620 degrees F when the pizza was slid onto the stone.  The pizza baked better than I expected and was just removed to add the extra cheese.  The total bake time was almost 8.44 minutes. 
What I found the most interesting about this exercise was the pizza did taste almost exactly like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  Really I could not tell much of any differences except the bottom was not as charred as some place on the bottom crust was that Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I don't know how that happened.  I know I added too much of the tomato blend and cheese, but the slices did stick straight out and did have the same crispy and crunchy texture as a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  The pizza sure did not look as good as a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza, but I was well pleased with the results.  The rim crust didn't even taste bland like the pizza Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Sloan.  I am glad now I did not throw the frozen De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball away.

Norma 
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #870 on: October 13, 2013, 07:49:33 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #871 on: October 13, 2013, 07:52:06 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #872 on: October 13, 2013, 07:53:44 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #873 on: October 13, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »
What I found the most interesting about this exercise was the pizza did taste almost exactly like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  Really I could not tell much of any differences except the bottom was not as charred as some place on the bottom crust was that Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.
Norma,

You aren't the only member who commented on the similarity in the crust flavors and the degree of charring of the two De Lorenzo pizzas (Sloan and Robbinsville). See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #874 on: October 13, 2013, 09:24:47 PM »
Norma,

You aren't the only member who commented on the similarity in the crust flavors and the degree of charring of the two De Lorenzo pizzas (Sloan and Robbinsville). See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to bfx9's post.  I wonder why the crust had such a good flavor today and also was crispy and crunchy.  I did not let the dough sit out at all today except for the time it took for the BS to heat up which was about 20 minutes.  I forgot to mention that when Bob was helping me take apart the Blackstone unit at Steve's home last week he dropped the stainless steel washers (in the dark into the grass) that fit under the bottom stone so I did not have any washers to use in the Blackstone today.  I don't know if it was just the Blackstone unit that baked a better pizza or if other variables are at play.  This whole hydration thing has me stumped now.  I know I want a dough like you have been experimenting with in the skin being elastic and extensible, but found it interesting that a lower hydration dough also worked. 

These are 3 more photos after a slice cooled down for about an hour.  The pizza was still good eaten cold.

Norma
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