Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 65438 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #860 on: October 12, 2013, 07:58:15 PM »
In case anyone is interested I talked to Trenton Bill and he said his mail to me did not go out this morning so he gave me the percentages he used for his pizza dough.

100% Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour
57% hydration
.40% IDY
1.5% sea salt
1.8% olive oil
.06% sugar

bowl compensation residue 1.5% dough ball weight 10.5 oz.  Mixed in his Kitchen Aid mixer for 15 minutes on speed 2.  Trenton Bill made the dough in the morning and let it sit out at room temperature until the dough looked like it about doubled in volume.

Sauce was 2 cans Red Pack whole tomatoes crushed by hand (with juice) and 1 can Sclafani crushed tomatoes.  He then used 6 oz. of the tomato blend added ¾ cup water, a pinch of basil and ½ teaspoon sugar.  He said the added sugar was critical to the taste of the blended sauce.  Bill drizzled about 1 ½ teaspoon of olive oil over the sauce and cheese.  The cheese used was Maggio whole milk mozzarella.  Baked at 600 degrees F in the Blackstone unit for about 8 minutes and he turned the pizza different times and added olive oil in the last minute of the baked.  Bill did not add olive oil on the rim of the pizza. 

Norma

Edit:  Bill called me this morning and told me I posted what he calls his master sauce wrong.  The 3/4 cup of water is added to the Sclafani crushed tomatoes.  6 oz. of the sauce blend was used on his pizza.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 07:58:53 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #861 on: October 12, 2013, 08:53:10 PM »
Norma,

All of my experiments have entailed cold fermented doughs since that is what the De Lorenzo's have done and continue to do according to the reports on this facet of the De Lorenzo business. However, Trenton Bill's modification has merit because it demonstrates how to make a same-day dough. That can have value. If he wishes, Trenton Bill can increase the yeast to about 0.50% IDY to speed up the fermentation process and shorten the window of usability of the dough. To make an emergency version that is usable in a couple hours or so, he can boost the yeast to around 0.80% IDY and use much warmer water.

In all of the above cases, it is a good idea to add some sugar to the dough. However, I think I would use more than 0.06%.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 09:04:40 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #862 on: October 12, 2013, 09:26:49 PM »
Norma,

All of my experiments have entailed cold fermented doughs since that is what the De Lorenzo's have done and continue to do according to the reports on this facet of the De Lorenzo business. However, Trenton Bill's modification has merit because it demonstrates how to make a same-day dough. That can have value. If he wishes, Trenton Bill can increase the yeast to about 0.50% IDY to speed up the fermentation process and shorten the window of usability of the dough. To make an emergency version that is usable in a couple hours or so, he can boost the yeast to around 0.80% IDY and use much warmer water.

In all of the above cases, it is a good idea to add some sugar to the dough. However, I think I would use more than 0.06%.

Peter

Peter,

I think Trenton Bill was trying so many times to make a De Lorenzo's pizza that he gave up on cold fermenting and that is why he made some same day doughs.  Trenton Bill said he has to stop making so many attempts at a De Lorenzo's pizza because he is gaining weight from eating so many of them.  :-D  At least he was satisfied with his attempt, or more than than satisfied and said he now can start making some more for his brother.  I am sure Bill will look at your post about increasing the yeast to speed up the fermentation process of he wants to make a faster room temperature dough.  Thanks for posting it is a good idea to add some sugar to a room fermenting dough.  What amount of sugar would you add for a same day dough since you posted that you think you would use more then 0.06%? 

Norma 
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #863 on: October 12, 2013, 09:38:51 PM »
Norma,

On second thought, if Trenton Bill is using his BlackStone oven, he may not need to add any more sugar since it appears that he got adequate crust browning, at least on top.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #864 on: October 13, 2013, 08:32:24 AM »
I was watching this video again to see how much of the tomato blend Gary Amico added to the last pizzas he made at De Lorenzo/Hudson.  It looks to me that there are more of the tomato blend applied that I thought before.  It also shows how much oil Gary Amico applies before the pizza goes into the oven.  It doesn't look to me like much oil is applied.  I am not sure what was said near the end of the video, but it sounded to me like someone said the tomato pie had to be checked in about two minutes.  It looks to me like the pie is rotated some. 
 

 
I think on this bloggers site that it shows what looks like more of the tomato blend than I have been applying too.
 
http://fussingwithforks.com/article/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-in-trenton-nj/
 
What I really wonder about is if oil is applied to the whole rim near the end of the bake.  Some of photos of the pizzas I have looked at really don't look like olive oil is applied to the rim.  One of those photos is at a bloggers review.  http://pwblogger.com/articles/8473/food--restaurant-review  Some photos on the web show a glistening rim crust while other photos really don't show that in my opinion.  I am trying to figure out how to apply oil to the rim.
 
The last photo below of a De Lorenzo tomato pie was on a myspace page, but the myspace page does not have a link anymore.
 
The photo of Chick De Lorenzo holding a tomato pie a long while ago does not appear to me to look like the same thin rimmed crust of today.  Maybe because it is an older photo that might be why the rim crust looks bigger to my eyes.

In my opinion the tomato pie beside Gary Amico looks like it has a fair amount of the tomato blend applied.
 
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #865 on: October 13, 2013, 09:19:43 AM »
Norma,

I made the same observation on the amount of tomatoes used on the De Lorenzo pizzas in the first paragraph of Reply 722 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281257.html#msg281257.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #866 on: October 13, 2013, 10:13:38 AM »
Good luck with the dough ball you made with the same hydration and the 0.10% IDY.
Norma,

The results using 0.10% IDY for a two day cold fermentation, along with a hydration of 57.5%, were successful. This was the specific De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation I used (but with KABF and about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG, as noted below):

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.10%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.35%):
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.34 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs (at a temperature of 60 degrees F)
0.19 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

After one day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 30-42%, as previously noted. After two days of cold fermentation, the poppy seed spacing indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of 67.5%. There is that magic number that keeps showing up. I believe that the dough could have gone another day. Through the two days of cold fermentation, there was no bubbling of the dough ball.

I let the dough ball proof at room temperature for about 1 1/4 hours whereupon I opened it up to form a skin. As with my more recent test doughs with a hydration of around 57% (in this case, 57.5%), I had no trouble opening up the dough ball and forming a skin of up to 14", and even larger. The skin was not tossable, however. In retrospect, I perhaps should not have tempered the dough ball as long as I did because there were some soft bubbles that formed in the skin. Yesterday, the temperature where I live in Texas reached 92 degrees and my kitchen was warmer than usual so that didn't help matters. This got me thinking about the temperatures that prevail near the ovens at Robbinsville. From the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm, it appears that there is room for three dough boxes below the central working station (with the marble or granite top) and that the dough boxes are not refrigerated at that station. Also, dough balls are placed on the marble or granite surface pending use. I'm sure that they have figured out how best to cope with their ambient temperatures.

By way of summary, the tests I have conducted to date appear to demonstrate that (1) using low yeast and low fermentation levels (through cold fermentation) are conducive to forming dough balls and skins that have either no bubbling or small amounts of bubbling; (2) relatively high hydration values produce dough balls that are easier to open up to form skins than dough balls with relatively low hydration values; and (3) the selection of thickness factor values can affect how the skins handle. Of course, using a flour with good gluten formation characteristics is also important, and the use of oil (blend) can yield some improvements in extensibility as well as provide some flavor.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #867 on: October 13, 2013, 11:16:15 AM »
Norma,

The results using 0.10% IDY for a two day cold fermentation, along with a hydration of 57.5%, were successful. This was the specific De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation I used (but with KABF and about 1/4 teaspoon of VWG, as noted below):

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.10%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (160.35%):
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
108.34 g  |  3.82 oz | 0.24 lbs (at a temperature of 60 degrees F)
0.19 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.06 tsp | 0.02 tbsp
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0682; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; the dough preparation method is as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529; I used KABF with VWG to increase the protein content of the blend to 12.9%, and I placed a thin layer of semolina in the dough storage container (a glass bowl).

After one day of cold fermentation, the spacing of the poppy seeds indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 30-42%, as previously noted. After two days of cold fermentation, the poppy seed spacing indicated an increase in the volume of the dough ball of 67.5%. There is that magic number that keeps showing up. I believe that the dough could have gone another day. Through the two days of cold fermentation, there was no bubbling of the dough ball.

I let the dough ball proof at room temperature for about 1 1/4 hours whereupon I opened it up to form a skin. As with my more recent test doughs with a hydration of around 57% (in this case, 57.5%), I had no trouble opening up the dough ball and forming a skin of up to 14", and even larger. The skin was not tossable, however. In retrospect, I perhaps should not have tempered the dough ball as long as I did because there were some soft bubbles that formed in the skin. Yesterday, the temperature where I live in Texas reached 92 degrees and my kitchen was warmer than usual so that didn't help matters. This got me thinking about the temperatures that prevail near the ovens at Robbinsville. From the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm, it appears that there is room for three dough boxes below the central working station (with the marble or granite top) and that the dough boxes are not refrigerated at that station. Also, dough balls are placed on the marble or granite surface pending use. I'm sure that they have figured out how best to cope with their ambient temperatures.

By way of summary, the tests I have conducted to date appear to demonstrate that (1) using low yeast and low fermentation levels (through cold fermentation) are conducive to forming dough balls and skins that have either no bubbling or small amounts of bubbling; (2) relatively high hydration values produce dough balls that are easier to open up to form skins than dough balls with relatively low hydration values; and (3) the selection of thickness factor values can affect how the skins handle. Of course, using a flour with good gluten formation characteristics is also important, and the use of oil (blend) can yield some improvements in extensibility as well as provide some flavor.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining in detail the results of your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10.  I am glad you had good results. 

To answer what you think might be the prevailing temperatures near the ovens at Robbinsville when I was there I was not right next to the ovens but I was near where they were assembling the pizzas and since it was air-conditioned it was somewhat cool where I stood to watch.  If the dough balls were stored right on the other side of that high counter I would not think it would be too hot there.

I am not sure if I am going to try your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville #10 clone dough formulation at market in my deck oven or at home in the Blackstone unit. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #868 on: October 13, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »
I was also looking at this photo of Gary Amico putting one of the last pizzas in a box.  I wonder if that was part of the kitchen at De Lorenzo/Sloan or was in Gary Amico's kitchen.  There does appear to be a big cooler in the photo.

This is what the caption says. 
De Lorenzo Tomato Pies owner Gary Amico puts pizza in a box for customers as the famed establishment cooked up their final pizza in Trenton on Sunday, January 15, 2012. Andrew Miller/For The Times of Trenton

Another photo of one of the last tomato pies from the same article.  To my eyes that rim looks like it has a lot of char.
 
All of the last photos at De Lorenzo/Hudson are at http://timesoftrenton.zenfolio.com/p185230782/h36E95AA5#h36e95aa5 if anyone is interested.

This is another photo on foodspotting of a De Lorenzo pizza it says was taken at De Lorenzo's in Hamilton Square, NJ.  The top pizza does look like it has char on the edges, which Trenton Bill's pizza and mine did not have.

Another photo of leftover cold slices at http://njepicurean.blogspot.com/2009/10/in-search-of-perfect-college-and.html
 
I don't know if anyone is interested, but this is an old article about Joe's Tomato pies history
.
Trenton Bill told me before he recalls when Gary Amico used to place mounds of cheese on the pizzas at De Lorenzo/Sloan and then put the tomatoes in-between the mounds of Maggio cheese. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #869 on: October 13, 2013, 07:45:42 PM »
I was curious about the leftover De Lorenzo/Sloan frozen dough ball in trying a pizza with it and also to see if the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough was any good after it was frozen so long.  I did not take any special steps to freeze the dough ball that I had done the hydration tests on.  The dough ball was just placed into a plastic bag after pieces were picked out of it and put into the freezer.  I let the dough ball thaw out while I did some errands this afternoon.  The dough ball was almost unfrozen until I returned home and I just time defrosted it a little in the microwave.  The dough ball sure looked like a mess and I didn't have high hopes of it turning into a good pizza.  The dough ball weighed 15.2 oz. and I cut off pieces until the dough weighed 10.5 oz.  I did try to flatten the dough ball some and press it together before cutting off some of it. 

I then heated up the Blackstone unit to about 600 degrees F and put a plastic container over the dough ball until the Blackstone unit heated up.  The Blackstone did not take long to heat up.  The De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball did smelled yeasty so I did not think I had killed all of the yeast from freezing the dough ball.

The dough ball really was not that hard to press out and open the rest of the way, but it was not as easy as some of my attempts.  The skin was fairly fragile when opening it to 13”. 

Until the dough ball was opened and dressed the Blackstone unit was at about 620 degrees F when the pizza was slid onto the stone.  The pizza baked better than I expected and was just removed to add the extra cheese.  The total bake time was almost 8.44 minutes. 
What I found the most interesting about this exercise was the pizza did taste almost exactly like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  Really I could not tell much of any differences except the bottom was not as charred as some place on the bottom crust was that Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I don't know how that happened.  I know I added too much of the tomato blend and cheese, but the slices did stick straight out and did have the same crispy and crunchy texture as a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  The pizza sure did not look as good as a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza, but I was well pleased with the results.  The rim crust didn't even taste bland like the pizza Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Sloan.  I am glad now I did not throw the frozen De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball away.

Norma 
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #870 on: October 13, 2013, 07:49:33 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #871 on: October 13, 2013, 07:52:06 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #872 on: October 13, 2013, 07:53:44 PM »
Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #873 on: October 13, 2013, 08:32:16 PM »
What I found the most interesting about this exercise was the pizza did taste almost exactly like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  Really I could not tell much of any differences except the bottom was not as charred as some place on the bottom crust was that Trenton Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.
Norma,

You aren't the only member who commented on the similarity in the crust flavors and the degree of charring of the two De Lorenzo pizzas (Sloan and Robbinsville). See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #874 on: October 13, 2013, 09:24:47 PM »
Norma,

You aren't the only member who commented on the similarity in the crust flavors and the degree of charring of the two De Lorenzo pizzas (Sloan and Robbinsville). See, for example, Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to bfx9's post.  I wonder why the crust had such a good flavor today and also was crispy and crunchy.  I did not let the dough sit out at all today except for the time it took for the BS to heat up which was about 20 minutes.  I forgot to mention that when Bob was helping me take apart the Blackstone unit at Steve's home last week he dropped the stainless steel washers (in the dark into the grass) that fit under the bottom stone so I did not have any washers to use in the Blackstone today.  I don't know if it was just the Blackstone unit that baked a better pizza or if other variables are at play.  This whole hydration thing has me stumped now.  I know I want a dough like you have been experimenting with in the skin being elastic and extensible, but found it interesting that a lower hydration dough also worked. 

These are 3 more photos after a slice cooled down for about an hour.  The pizza was still good eaten cold.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #875 on: October 13, 2013, 10:12:50 PM »
Norma,

There were too many variables in what you did to be able to interweave them in search of an answer. However, you should not be deterred if you would like to experiment with lower hydration values. My home mixer does not do a good job with low hydration values but if your home mixer is up to the task you might select a dough formulation to try with lower hydration values. That would entail selecting a fermentation period, the hydration value that you would like to test, and a yeast quantity that will produce the desired dough condition at the end of the selected fermentation period. You might even consider using your Hobart mixer at work to make several test dough balls to see if you can get them to open up with the desired balance of elasticity and extensibility. It may well be that our home mixers cannot replicate what the De Lorenzo's are doing with their commercial mixers.

Peter

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #876 on: October 14, 2013, 07:15:25 AM »
Norma,

There were too many variables in what you did to be able to interweave them in search of an answer. However, you should not be deterred if you would like to experiment with lower hydration values. My home mixer does not do a good job with low hydration values but if your home mixer is up to the task you might select a dough formulation to try with lower hydration values. That would entail selecting a fermentation period, the hydration value that you would like to test, and a yeast quantity that will produce the desired dough condition at the end of the selected fermentation period. You might even consider using your Hobart mixer at work to make several test dough balls to see if you can get them to open up with the desired balance of elasticity and extensibility. It may well be that our home mixers cannot replicate what the De Lorenzo's are doing with their commercial mixers.

Peter

Peter,

I know there were too many variables to figure out why the De Lorenzo/Sloan frozen dough ball worked out yesterday.  I really don't want to put my home mixer right through more tests right now even though I know my home mixer can mix a lower hydration dough.  I don't think I am willing to use my Hobart at market either.  I don't know how much dough I would need to mix in that mixer, but know from the past that the Hobart needs at least 5 NY style dough balls to be able to mix right.  I think that would translate into too many test lower hydration dough balls and I would not know what to do with all of them.  I know our home mixers might not be able to replicate what De Lorenzo's are doing with their commercial mixers. 

I think I will try your #10 De Lorenzo clone dough formulation next in the Blackstone unit to see if the BS can have about the same bake.

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #877 on: October 15, 2013, 02:28:45 AM »
I had another go at a De Lorenzo clone over the weekend and I think the crust is getting closer to where we want to be.

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #878 on: October 15, 2013, 06:37:48 AM »
I had another go at a De Lorenzo clone over the weekend and I think the crust is getting closer to where we want to be.

Tim,

Your De Lorenzo's clone pizza looks very good.   Your bottom crust looks excellent.  What formulation did you use and what temperature did you bake at?

Norma
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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #879 on: October 15, 2013, 08:18:59 PM »
I know there were too many variables to figure out why the De Lorenzo/Sloan frozen dough ball worked out yesterday.  I really don't want to put my home mixer right through more tests right now even though I know my home mixer can mix a lower hydration dough.  I don't think I am willing to use my Hobart at market either.  I don't know how much dough I would need to mix in that mixer, but know from the past that the Hobart needs at least 5 NY style dough balls to be able to mix right.  I think that would translate into too many test lower hydration dough balls and I would not know what to do with all of them.  I know our home mixers might not be able to replicate what De Lorenzo's are doing with their commercial mixers. 
Norma,

Your post as quoted above sent me back to the drawing board. But, this time, it was in respect of the Sloan dough. And, in that vein, I made two Sloan clone test dough balls. The results are in for the first Sloan clone test dough, which I will discuss below, and the results for the second Sloan clone test dough are pending, with completion of that test dough expected tomorrow. However, the results go beyond just a Sloan dough. The implications go beyond that specific dough, as will become evident below.

To refresh your memory, you will recall that you conducted several hydration bake tests with the large Sloan dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan when you and Trenton Bill visited that location and had one of their pizzas. You might also recall that I did a similar hydration bake test with a Sloan clone test dough that I created, with results that were very similar to the results that you achieved with the last two hydration bake tests you conducted on the purchased Sloan dough ball. If we assume that our results were valid, those results suggested that De Lorenzo/Sloan was using a relatively low hydration value. What we did not know is what other ingredients beyond flour and water were used to make the Sloan dough. I think it is safe to say that yeast in some form, and most likely salt, were also ingredients used to make the Sloan dough. Sugar and oil would have been logical candidates, but there was no evidence of such use. I concluded from some number crunching that I conducted at the time using the expanded dough calculating tool that something in large quantity was needed in order to make the total numbers work. I decided that oil was perhaps the missing link. So, my latest tests were calculated to see if a low hydration dough with a lot of oil will together create a dough with a good balance of elasticity and extensibility, and hopefully with little or no bubbling of the dough and skin formed therefrom.

The first Sloan clone test dough was constituted as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (53%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (160.15%):
188.66 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
99.99 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs (43 degrees F)
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
1.89 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
7.55 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.66 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10.5 ounces) is for a single 14" skin; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.0683; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you will see from the above formulation, I selected a hydration value of 53%. The oil was a blend of 1% olive oil and 4% vegetable oil, for a total of 5%. I could have used all vegetable oil, which might be what De Lorenzo/Sloan uses, but I decided to mimic the blend that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is said to use. That way, I could compare the performance of the Sloan clone dough with the results I have gotten with my De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs. I used 0.40% IDY because I was after a one-day cold fermented dough. For my test, I used KABF as supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content of 12.9%, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. Procedurally, I made the dough using the same methodology as described in Reply 745 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529. Again, that would allow me to compare the performance of the Sloan clone dough with the De Lorenzo clone test doughs. Since you used 10.5 ounces of the Sloan dough to make your pizza, I used the same dough ball weight. That meant that the thickness factor of my Sloan clone test dough was the same as yours, 0.0682.

As I expected, the latest Sloan clone test dough ball increased quite dramatically in volume over the next day (I started the dough at night). It more than doubled in volume. However, there were no fermentation bubbles in the storage container I used (my standard Pyrex glass bowl). I decided to use the Sloan clone test dough ball after 18 hours of cold fermentation. I let the dough temper at room temperature for about a half hour, at which point the feel of the dough suggested that it was ready to be used. I then opened up the dough ball to form a skin. I had no difficulties doing so, using the edge of my countertop and gravity to open up the skin until I could lift it and stretch it out to size. Before I was done, I was able to stretch the skin to over 20". I was able to hold the skin at the edges although I don't believe that I could have tossed the skin. There were some soft bubbles in the skin but they more or less disappeared as I let the skin rest on my countertop. I would say that the Sloan clone test dough performed as well as the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone test doughs with much higher hydration but with small amounts of oil.

What the above test demonstrates is that extensibility isn't solely a function of hydration. Oil used in large quantity can produce the same effect. Of course, the two factors combined (58% total in this case) are both implicated in the extensibility of the dough in which both water and oil are used. The other point I will make is that I could not have made the Sloan clone dough in my stand mixer if I did not use a lot of oil. It was knowing that that I decided to increase the amount of oil dramatically. It is also questionable whether I could have used my food processor to make a dough with low hydration and little or no oil. Even commercial mixers can struggle making low hydration dough (typically below an absorption rate of 50% or less), without oil, with caution being advised not to use anything beyond the first speed to mix and knead such doughs.

My pending Sloan clone test dough uses considerably less yeast and a slight reduction in the amount of oil. Everything else will remain the same. This test is intended to establish whether the small amount of yeast will result in a dough that is easy to open and stretch and is also free of all bubbling, including when opened to form a skin.

Of course, I have no way of knowing whether De Lorenzo/Sloan uses oil in its dough, or in what amount if they do indeed use oil in their dough. But we can safely say that the combination of low hydration and high oil will yield a skin that is nicely balanced between elasticity and extensibility.

Peter



 

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