Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 103835 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #925 on: October 23, 2013, 07:07:48 PM »
Just a slice of the regular boardwalk style of pizza I ate yesterday.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #926 on: October 31, 2013, 10:46:26 AM »
I used Peter's De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #10 at Reply 866 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283461.html#msg283461 for another attempt at a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza. 

Somehow my dough ball slid to the side of the plastic container but the poppy seeds still moved apart.  The dough ball was left to warm up too long because I was busy, but the dough when opening did not show any fermentation bubbles in the skin.  The dough handled very nicely and could be opened with ease.

The bake in my deck oven did not go as well as the dough though.  I did bake on each of the four corners of the bottom deck and did remove the tomato pie to let it cool down on a screen.  After about 5 minutes it was put back into the top deck.  The edges and were crisp and crunchy but the middle of the tomato pie crust was not.  I don't think my deck oven at the temperatures I am baking my regular pizzas at will ever give me good results.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #927 on: October 31, 2013, 10:48:23 AM »
Total bake time was about 11 minutes.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #928 on: October 31, 2013, 11:27:40 AM »
I don't know if anyone is interested about flouring their bulk sausage before placing pieces of unbaked sausage on a pizza, but that is one I saw when I was in the Trenton area at one pizza business.  It seemed to work out well in taking pieces off of the floured rolled sausage and also the unbaked sausage does not oil off as much in the bake.  The uncooked sausage pieces also baked well at the bake time and temperature I use at market.  I purchased the bulk sausage from a meat vendor at market. 

Another thing I wanted to post about is I had ordered a block of the cheese I use for my regular boardwalk pizzas and my Detroit style pizzas the day before market day two weeks ago.  Last week when I went to pick up the cheese they told me no one told them I ordered cheese.  They did tell me though they had an extra block of cheese on their refrigerated truck.  When they brought me the cheese block it sure did not look like it had the right wording on the outside of the block package but they said it was the right cheese.  When I went to open the cheese this past Monday to grate the cheese I could tell it was not the same cheese in that it was much harder to slice with the cheese string and also it had a little more tang in the taste.  I could do nothing about that on Monday.  The cheese melted okay on all of my pizzas Tuesday but I could tell it did not string as well and baked differently in the oven.  I talked to the man that had brought me the cheese on Tuesday and told him I had been given the wrong cheese the week before.  He apologized and I could take back the portion I did not grate, but the cheese was almost a 1.00 more a lb.  I did get some money back for the portion I did not use though.

I did had the pleasure of meeting Zing on Tuesday.  He came to my pizza stand and sure is a nice man.  8) We got to talking about different things about pizzas. 

Norma

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #929 on: November 04, 2013, 03:48:29 AM »
I don't think my deck oven at the temperatures I am baking my regular pizzas at will ever give me good results.

Norma, I thought your attempt looked good!

I tried another De Lorenzo clone using a slightly modified De Lorenzo #4 formulation:

Flour (100%):    192.53 g  |  6.79 oz | 0.42 lbs
Water (57%):    109.74 g  |  3.87 oz | 0.24 lbs
IDY (.30%):    0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    3.37 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Olive Oil (.4%):    0.77 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.6%):    3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total (161.05%):   310.07 g | 10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.07105

The slight differences were a .07 nominal TF and with 1.5 bowl compensation and 1.75% salt instead of 1.5%

We enjoyed this one quite a lot.  My steel read 508 F as this cooked (About 7 minutes)  I forgot to add additional cheese mid-bake and I used too much sauce, but it tasted great, in my opinion.  The steam was really coming off this pie when I removed it from the oven.

I hope you'll give this version a try some time.

--Tim

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #930 on: November 04, 2013, 07:33:14 AM »
Norma, I thought your attempt looked good!

I tried another De Lorenzo clone using a slightly modified De Lorenzo #4 formulation:

Flour (100%):    192.53 g  |  6.79 oz | 0.42 lbs
Water (57%):    109.74 g  |  3.87 oz | 0.24 lbs
IDY (.30%):    0.58 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    3.37 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Olive Oil (.4%):    0.77 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1.6%):    3.08 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Total (161.05%):   310.07 g | 10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs | TF = 0.07105

The slight differences were a .07 nominal TF and with 1.5 bowl compensation and 1.75% salt instead of 1.5%

We enjoyed this one quite a lot.  My steel read 508 F as this cooked (About 7 minutes)  I forgot to add additional cheese mid-bake and I used too much sauce, but it tasted great, in my opinion.  The steam was really coming off this pie when I removed it from the oven.

I hope you'll give this version a try some time.

--Tim

Tim,

Thanks for posting about your results using the modified De Lorenzo #4 formulation.  I am glad you and your family enjoyed your pizza.  Your pizza looks very nice. 

I have about given up on another attempt unless I do one in the Blackstone unit.  I think the clone De Lorenzo formulations do need the right kind of oven to get the right bake.  You are using a baking steel which is good in my opinion.  I talked to Trenton Bill earlier last week and he said he can't even get a consistent bake using the same formulation in his Blackstone unit.  Trenton Bill said he has been using Peter's #2 De Lorenzo's clone dough formulation and only one time he made a pizza something like De Lorenzo's.  Trenton Bill said there was something missing in his other attempts using the same formulation and baked at the same temperature.  Trenton Bill also said he has about given up too. 

I sure don't know what is so magical about De Lorenzo's methods so I would tend to think it might be the oven they use that gives their results. 

Norma

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #931 on: November 06, 2013, 12:33:56 PM »
Well, Norma...if you believe it's "the oven" that makes the "magic", it's difficult to explain why the magic from Trenton carried over to Robbinsville when both were still in business, when the ovens remained at Hudson (Trenton).

Maybe I'm missing your point?
Stuart

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #932 on: November 06, 2013, 03:07:31 PM »
Well, Norma...if you believe it's "the oven" that makes the "magic", it's difficult to explain why the magic from Trenton carried over to Robbinsville when both were still in business, when the ovens remained at Hudson (Trenton).

Maybe I'm missing your point?

Stuart,

I really don't know if the type of oven makes the magic, but do think the heat and timing has to be about right.  If I could fool around with my deck oven at higher temperatures for awhile maybe I would find out if my deck oven could bake a decent De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson tomato pie.  I can't keep changing the temperatures in my deck oven because of the regular pizzas I make at market.

Maybe you can get a decent De Lorenzo clone pizza in your oven.  I am not trying to dissuade anyone from trying.  I would be happy if someone else could make a decent De Lorenzo clone tomato pie.   

You might get a chuckle out of this, but I went to post a couple of photos of my last attempt at a De Lorenzo's tomato pie on that facebook group page I told you about and all I went to post was lol this was not successful.  I had been able to directly post any photos before.  I had to wait a few days for the creator of that group to approve my post and photos.  I am done posting on that group now but will watch what is said about Trenton tomato pies.  The creator of that group did graduate with Gary Amico.  The creator of that group does not live in the Trenton area anymore.

Someone posted about De Lorenzo/Sloan/Hamilton a few days later and that got into a lengthly discussion about how they changed their tomato pies from years ago.  I did not get involved with that.   :-D

Norma 

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #933 on: November 06, 2013, 03:54:53 PM »
Just curious, Norma, whether you've learned anything on that facebook page that helps creating a credible clone for this thread? I've gone to the page, but....keep forgetting that access to the discussions is controlled.  So, I can't tell if anything worthwhile gets discussed..or whether it's a bunch of people nostaligic for the Trenton pies of their youths.
Stuart


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #934 on: November 06, 2013, 04:31:30 PM »
Stuart,

Another thing to keep in mind is that all of the ovens that Hudson and Robbinsville used were Blodgett ovens. Everything that I have read seems to say that Sam Amico wanted to copy as much of the Hudson business as possible at Robbinsville (the new and larger digs excepted). He must have had confidence that the newer Blodgett ovens were the way to go and that he would be in good stead were Hudson to eventually close its doors. Even Rick De Lorenzo used Blodgett ovens at the old location, and these were moved to his new location. He even added a couple more ovens, which were the same as the old ovens but refurbished.

Norma's oven is a Baker's Pride oven. And her BP oven may not be an alternative to the Blodgett ovens from a functional and performance standpoint.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #935 on: November 06, 2013, 05:53:07 PM »
Just curious, Norma, whether you've learned anything on that facebook page that helps creating a credible clone for this thread? I've gone to the page, but....keep forgetting that access to the discussions is controlled.  So, I can't tell if anything worthwhile gets discussed..or whether it's a bunch of people nostaligic for the Trenton pies of their youths.

Stuart,

No, I have not learned anything on that group facebook page that helps in creating a credible clone for this thread.  As I posted before I don't really think that group is into recreating a De Lorenzo's clone pizza.  That group does make attempts at making tomato pies but is nothing like here on the forum in trying to clone a tomato pie.

I did ask to join another group on facebook called “It's a Trenton Thing Recipe Section” before I found the only tomato pie group.  It says at the heading of that facebook group “We got the best tomato pies, pork roll and Casino Italian hot dogs in the country!  That facebook site is also a closed group that is a spinoff of “It's a Trenton Thing”.  I enjoy looking at the old recipes and photos and sometimes people do post about tomato pies they have eaten in Trenton.  I learned about different tomato pies and places in Trenton from a long while ago that I never heard of.

Norma

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #936 on: November 11, 2013, 11:33:11 AM »
Is there any consensus here on which of Peter's formulations is most likely to come closest to the grail on this thread?

I am having a large (20 people) crowd the day after Thanksgiving....and want to try that one if there is a consensus....might even have time for a two-pie dry run the weekend before if I can focus on a formulation.
Stuart

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #937 on: November 11, 2013, 03:27:53 PM »
Stuart,

I have not tried all of Peter's formulations and most of my tomatoes pies really were not like a De Lorenzo's tomato pie.  I think you would just have to try one of Peter's formulations and go from there.

Best of luck!

Norma 

Offline jim s

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #938 on: November 13, 2013, 02:18:00 PM »
Hi Norma, Pete, and Stuart,

This is my first post on PM, I've been a curious member since 09. I started working my way through this thread on Oct. 16 and I would like to commend Norma and Pete for all their work, and Stuart for your observations.

First some background,

I lived in Philadelphia from 1984 to 2003, I now live in  the suburbs 24 miles west of Philadelphia (King of Prussia area).

I started going to De Lorenzo's/Hudson in the mid 80's. I was a frequent customer (2-3 times/month) from the 80's through late the 90's, we had our first child (girl) in 99 and that cut us back to only about 5 visits a year from 99 to 02, then in 2002 baby #2 (son) was delivered by the stork and we moved to the suburbs and another 1/2 hour away from Trenton so that put the kibosh  De Lo's.

Fast forward to  2011, my daughter plays soccer and lacrosse, so that gets me in the Trenton area 4-5 times a year, so we try to hit De Lorenzo's whenever we're in area, I have taken detours off the NJ turnpike for pies.

I got to Hudson St. 3 times in 2011 (1 eat in, 2 take out) before closing, and I've Robbinsville about 8 times.

I've been to quite a few of the "old school" legendary pizzerias from Boston to Philly, and to me De Lorenzo's is the best.


Now for some comments, observations and rambling nonsense,

I never asked Gary anything about pizza making, he didn't seem to open to questions, but I always observed whenever I was seated where I could see, or I would stand by the cash register when I was waiting for take out if it wasn't too busy.

When Sam was younger and worked at Hudson he was more open than Gary, but not much. The only thing he ever told me was that the sauce was a blend of 2 brands, he named them but I didn't make a note of it.

Gary and Sam's pie making skills were equal.

This summer my daughter and I were there on a Saturday afternoon about an hour and 15 minutes before opening, we were the first customers. They open at 4 and they don't open the doors until 4, so you wait outside. You can't really "dumpster dive" because the dumpsters are in a fenced in area in the parking lot (as Stuart mentioned) and the dumpsters are the large dumpsters with side doors not the smaller ones where the lid flips open, and there are several food businesses in the complex and I think they share the dumpsters. I have looked in the dumpster area several times and seen nothing, because it is kept very neat, also the dumpster area can be seen from the front windows of the shop. I think if you were caught snooping around by Sam, Gary or one of the higher-ups they would not take to kindly to it, and that's putting it mildly.

But being that we were the first ones there I got lucky because a waiter wheeled 3 garbage cans to the dumpsters and I helped him. On that day, and this is a fact, I saw Redpack, Cento (US), and 6 in 1 cans, don't know which was whole and which were crushed, because I was too worried about being busted for industrial espionage.

I will continue tomorrow because I've got to get the kids from school and start cracking the homework whip.

Jim

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #939 on: November 13, 2013, 04:29:44 PM »
jim s,

Thanks for your background information about how many years you ate De Lorenzo/Husdon/Robbinsville tomato pies and what you think of them.. 

Interesting that you saw Redpack, Cento and 6-in-1 cans when you helped the waiter with the 3 garbage bags. 

Looking forward to see if you observed anything else.

Norma

Offline beaunehead

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #940 on: November 13, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »
Good work....confirming the Redpack/6 in 1...that's what Sam probably told you, as that's what they've used for a long time.

Just to clarify, I never made any statements about the garbage locations, etc...I've never tried to/looked for/was interested in dumpster diving on them, as I've known for many years what ingredients they put on the top of their pies. 

It's what's under those toppings that has, and continues to intrigue me. That's where they pull away from the crowd. Anyone can buy the same toppings, etc....But....their crust is a work of art. I pay homage with my attempts, and they satisfy me and my guests/family. But, there's nothing as good as a "live" pie there.

Stuart

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #941 on: November 13, 2013, 07:45:11 PM »
Jim,

I also look forward to the continuation of your discussion.

I have been at the process of reverse engineering and cloning well known pizzas for about nine years. And Norma had been at it pretty much from the time she joined the forum in 2009, usually as my co-conspirator. One of the things I have learned over the years is that you can't count on information given to you being correct and reliable. People in the know or should be in the know don't always tell the truth and what they tell you can be incorrect, misleading or intended to throw you off of the scent. Often the incorrect information is dispensed innocently. Sometimes I think that people just guess at the answers, out of fear that they might be viewed as incompetent, or are overly casual with their answers. I have also dealt with people where I knew more about their products than they did. All of this explains why I focus on facts as best I can get them. The best sources are photos and videos, nutrition information and ingredients statements if available, and facts gained through dumpster diving. These sources are the most reliable fact-wise. They also form a good basis for conducting further research. Eyewitness accounts, especially those gained on site, also help but I have seen instances where even eyewitness reports were faulty. As I once told Norma, there are innocent people languishing in prison because of eyewitness testimony that turned out to be faulty or incorrect. Usually because of faulty memory. So, I have a trust but verify philosophy when it comes to eyewitness reports. 

In the DeLorenzo case, most of my time was spend on trying to come up with a clone dough formulation that can produce a dough that can be formed into a skin without signs of bubbling, as shown in the various photographs and videos. There are only so many ways of doing this. You have to control the amount of yeast and/or the degree of fermentation. And the extent of fermentation has to fall within the window of usability of the dough. We don't quite know the duration of fermentation of the DeLorenzo dough but I would guess one or two days, with a third day being possible but not the norm. Attention also has to be paid to the hydration value and the thickness of the skin. But, even if all of these factors are in balance, the oven used to bake the pizzas is the final factor that has to be taken into account. Most of our members do not have Blodgett deck ovens. They might have some other brand of deck oven, or they may have BlackStone ovens, or something as basic as a gas or electric home oven using a stone or steel plate. So, there is no guarantee that a clone dough, no matter how close it may be to a real DeLorenzo dough, will produce the desired results in the other ovens.

Peter


Offline jim s

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #942 on: November 14, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »
Hi Stuart  Peter, and Norma,

Thanks to all for your replies.

Stuart I'm sorry for the dumpster diving confusion, I went back in the thread and checked, the conversation was between Peter and Norma. I agree the "magic" of De Lorenzo's is in the dough.

Most of my takeout pizzas were eaten in the car on Hudson St. or in the parking lot in Robbinsville, because when the line is 20+ long takeout is much faster, and it's impossible to be within the vicinity
of a sausage and garlic and not consume large quantities immediately, so most of my eating was "live".


Now to some observations, comments, and questions,

I have never seen a dough thrown, only stretched on bench and over knuckles.

At Hudson in the 80's and 90's the cheese was not uniformly grated, it seemed to be grated in house.
Stuart mentioned Maggio was used this could be possible, because Taconelli's in Philadelphia used Maggio at that time.

When I saw Sorrento bagged, pre-grated at Robbinsville (this summer), I was shocked. This came from the back kitchen and was open and dispensed asap. Sam guards his secrets very tightly, there is only a limited number of tables in Robbinsville where you can see into the pizza station, and it is a side view from about 10ft. to 15ft. away.

If I am correct cheese is the most expensive component of a pizza, and I do not know where Sorrento comes in on the cost spectrum. Sam may have become more cost sensitive because his overhead expenses are much greater, or he may feel this is the best, only he knows.

I will post more tomorrow, have to take daughter/soccer player to orthopaedist.

 

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #943 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:01 PM »
jim s,

Thanks for confirming you never saw a dough being thrown.  Stuart and other forum members have reported that Maggio cheese was used years ago.  Trenton Bill asked at De Lorenzo/Sloan about why they stopped using the Maggio cheese.

I am curious if you tried to duplicate a De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville tomato pie at home from one of Peter's formulations or are you going to try?

Norma

Offline jim s

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #944 on: November 15, 2013, 12:45:51 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm going to try to make a De Lorenzo's clone, I got a Blackstone 2 weeks ago, it is still in the box, I'm going to break it out next week.

I thought your attempts with the Blackstone were good, which of Peter's formulations did you think worked best in the BS?

What I have learned from making pizza is that it it's not too hard to make one that looks good (i.e photos), but it is very hard to make one that tastes as good as it looks!

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #945 on: November 15, 2013, 07:51:00 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm going to try to make a De Lorenzo's clone, I got a Blackstone 2 weeks ago, it is still in the box, I'm going to break it out next week.

I thought your attempts with the Blackstone were good, which of Peter's formulations did you think worked best in the BS?

What I have learned from making pizza is that it it's not too hard to make one that looks good (i.e photos), but it is very hard to make one that tastes as good as it looks!

jim s,

I know this may sound odd, but I had my best attempt in my Blackstone unit at Reply 904 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg284391.html#msg284391 using Peter's Sloan clone dough formulation #3 at Reply 898 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970  That attempt really was not exactly right though. 

I had planned to try some more attempts with another one of Peter's other formulations in my Blackstone unit but life is getting in the way right now and so is the colder weather. 

I wish you the best of luck with any formulation you try in your Blackstone unit.  I also know photos can be deceiving.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #946 on: November 27, 2013, 11:00:59 AM »
These are a few of photos of the boardwalk style of pizzas that make at market from yesterday.  I did an experiment on an offspring dough yesterday at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28783.0.html combining the boardwalk style of dough with the Detroit style of dough in an usual manner.  I don't know if the results will be able to be repeatable but there was a difference in oven spring and moistness in the rim using the offspring dough baked in the same oven at the same temperatures.  The pizza size was different though and that might have also changed the results.  Each variable usually changes something.  I don't think I ever will understand all what goes into making great pizzas.  :-D I think it can be seen though that the offspring dough and resulting pizza had better results with oven spring and moistness in the rim crust.  The same sauce and cheese were used on both the offspring pizza and the boardwalk style of pizza so at least that is one variable that is the same.

Market management finished the seating area and the ATM right near my pizza stand.  There are stools for seating and also places to stand to eat food with hooks to hang bags on.  I thought that was a nice addition by market management.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #947 on: November 30, 2013, 09:53:08 PM »
If anyone is interested a person on the Trenton NJ Tomato Pie-Nothin Else facebook page posted this photo of a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pie they ate today. 

To me the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pie does not look like it has much, if any charring on the rim.  Makes me wonder how it tasted.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #948 on: December 06, 2013, 05:42:42 AM »
I received a different gift this year from the Cortopassi Family.  This year it was a tomato ornament.  I get a gift from The Cortopassi Family each year around this time because I purchase the Stanislaus products for my pizza stand at market.  I really like the tomato ornament.

Norma

Offline BenLee

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #949 on: December 07, 2013, 11:24:43 AM »
Good news for Tomato pies.  Delorenzo's recently purchased a property in Newton PA and is gearing up for opening another location.