Author Topic: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”  (Read 66538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline beaunehead

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 93
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #940 on: November 13, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »
Good work....confirming the Redpack/6 in 1...that's what Sam probably told you, as that's what they've used for a long time.

Just to clarify, I never made any statements about the garbage locations, etc...I've never tried to/looked for/was interested in dumpster diving on them, as I've known for many years what ingredients they put on the top of their pies. 

It's what's under those toppings that has, and continues to intrigue me. That's where they pull away from the crowd. Anyone can buy the same toppings, etc....But....their crust is a work of art. I pay homage with my attempts, and they satisfy me and my guests/family. But, there's nothing as good as a "live" pie there.

Stuart


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22179
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #941 on: November 13, 2013, 07:45:11 PM »
Jim,

I also look forward to the continuation of your discussion.

I have been at the process of reverse engineering and cloning well known pizzas for about nine years. And Norma had been at it pretty much from the time she joined the forum in 2009, usually as my co-conspirator. One of the things I have learned over the years is that you can't count on information given to you being correct and reliable. People in the know or should be in the know don't always tell the truth and what they tell you can be incorrect, misleading or intended to throw you off of the scent. Often the incorrect information is dispensed innocently. Sometimes I think that people just guess at the answers, out of fear that they might be viewed as incompetent, or are overly casual with their answers. I have also dealt with people where I knew more about their products than they did. All of this explains why I focus on facts as best I can get them. The best sources are photos and videos, nutrition information and ingredients statements if available, and facts gained through dumpster diving. These sources are the most reliable fact-wise. They also form a good basis for conducting further research. Eyewitness accounts, especially those gained on site, also help but I have seen instances where even eyewitness reports were faulty. As I once told Norma, there are innocent people languishing in prison because of eyewitness testimony that turned out to be faulty or incorrect. Usually because of faulty memory. So, I have a trust but verify philosophy when it comes to eyewitness reports. 

In the DeLorenzo case, most of my time was spend on trying to come up with a clone dough formulation that can produce a dough that can be formed into a skin without signs of bubbling, as shown in the various photographs and videos. There are only so many ways of doing this. You have to control the amount of yeast and/or the degree of fermentation. And the extent of fermentation has to fall within the window of usability of the dough. We don't quite know the duration of fermentation of the DeLorenzo dough but I would guess one or two days, with a third day being possible but not the norm. Attention also has to be paid to the hydration value and the thickness of the skin. But, even if all of these factors are in balance, the oven used to bake the pizzas is the final factor that has to be taken into account. Most of our members do not have Blodgett deck ovens. They might have some other brand of deck oven, or they may have BlackStone ovens, or something as basic as a gas or electric home oven using a stone or steel plate. So, there is no guarantee that a clone dough, no matter how close it may be to a real DeLorenzo dough, will produce the desired results in the other ovens.

Peter

Offline jim s

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #942 on: November 14, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »
Hi Stuart  Peter, and Norma,

Thanks to all for your replies.

Stuart I'm sorry for the dumpster diving confusion, I went back in the thread and checked, the conversation was between Peter and Norma. I agree the "magic" of De Lorenzo's is in the dough.

Most of my takeout pizzas were eaten in the car on Hudson St. or in the parking lot in Robbinsville, because when the line is 20+ long takeout is much faster, and it's impossible to be within the vicinity
of a sausage and garlic and not consume large quantities immediately, so most of my eating was "live".


Now to some observations, comments, and questions,

I have never seen a dough thrown, only stretched on bench and over knuckles.

At Hudson in the 80's and 90's the cheese was not uniformly grated, it seemed to be grated in house.
Stuart mentioned Maggio was used this could be possible, because Taconelli's in Philadelphia used Maggio at that time.

When I saw Sorrento bagged, pre-grated at Robbinsville (this summer), I was shocked. This came from the back kitchen and was open and dispensed asap. Sam guards his secrets very tightly, there is only a limited number of tables in Robbinsville where you can see into the pizza station, and it is a side view from about 10ft. to 15ft. away.

If I am correct cheese is the most expensive component of a pizza, and I do not know where Sorrento comes in on the cost spectrum. Sam may have become more cost sensitive because his overhead expenses are much greater, or he may feel this is the best, only he knows.

I will post more tomorrow, have to take daughter/soccer player to orthopaedist.

 

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #943 on: November 14, 2013, 03:34:01 PM »
jim s,

Thanks for confirming you never saw a dough being thrown.  Stuart and other forum members have reported that Maggio cheese was used years ago.  Trenton Bill asked at De Lorenzo/Sloan about why they stopped using the Maggio cheese.

I am curious if you tried to duplicate a De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville tomato pie at home from one of Peter's formulations or are you going to try?

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline jim s

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 5
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #944 on: November 15, 2013, 12:45:51 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm going to try to make a De Lorenzo's clone, I got a Blackstone 2 weeks ago, it is still in the box, I'm going to break it out next week.

I thought your attempts with the Blackstone were good, which of Peter's formulations did you think worked best in the BS?

What I have learned from making pizza is that it it's not too hard to make one that looks good (i.e photos), but it is very hard to make one that tastes as good as it looks!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #945 on: November 15, 2013, 07:51:00 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm going to try to make a De Lorenzo's clone, I got a Blackstone 2 weeks ago, it is still in the box, I'm going to break it out next week.

I thought your attempts with the Blackstone were good, which of Peter's formulations did you think worked best in the BS?

What I have learned from making pizza is that it it's not too hard to make one that looks good (i.e photos), but it is very hard to make one that tastes as good as it looks!

jim s,

I know this may sound odd, but I had my best attempt in my Blackstone unit at Reply 904 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg284391.html#msg284391 using Peter's Sloan clone dough formulation #3 at Reply 898 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970  That attempt really was not exactly right though. 

I had planned to try some more attempts with another one of Peter's other formulations in my Blackstone unit but life is getting in the way right now and so is the colder weather. 

I wish you the best of luck with any formulation you try in your Blackstone unit.  I also know photos can be deceiving.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #946 on: November 27, 2013, 11:00:59 AM »
These are a few of photos of the boardwalk style of pizzas that make at market from yesterday.  I did an experiment on an offspring dough yesterday at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28783.0.html combining the boardwalk style of dough with the Detroit style of dough in an usual manner.  I don't know if the results will be able to be repeatable but there was a difference in oven spring and moistness in the rim using the offspring dough baked in the same oven at the same temperatures.  The pizza size was different though and that might have also changed the results.  Each variable usually changes something.  I don't think I ever will understand all what goes into making great pizzas.  :-D I think it can be seen though that the offspring dough and resulting pizza had better results with oven spring and moistness in the rim crust.  The same sauce and cheese were used on both the offspring pizza and the boardwalk style of pizza so at least that is one variable that is the same.

Market management finished the seating area and the ATM right near my pizza stand.  There are stools for seating and also places to stand to eat food with hooks to hang bags on.  I thought that was a nice addition by market management.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #947 on: November 30, 2013, 09:53:08 PM »
If anyone is interested a person on the Trenton NJ Tomato Pie-Nothin Else facebook page posted this photo of a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pie they ate today. 

To me the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tomato pie does not look like it has much, if any charring on the rim.  Makes me wonder how it tasted.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #948 on: December 06, 2013, 05:42:42 AM »
I received a different gift this year from the Cortopassi Family.  This year it was a tomato ornament.  I get a gift from The Cortopassi Family each year around this time because I purchase the Stanislaus products for my pizza stand at market.  I really like the tomato ornament.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline BenLee

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 182
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #949 on: December 07, 2013, 11:24:43 AM »
Good news for Tomato pies.  Delorenzo's recently purchased a property in Newton PA and is gearing up for opening another location.


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #950 on: December 07, 2013, 06:37:04 PM »
Good news for Tomato pies.  Delorenzo's recently purchased a property in Newton PA and is gearing up for opening another location.

BenLee,

That is good news for Tomato Pies that De Lorenzo's recently purchase a property in Newton, Pa. 

Too bad that is farther away from me than De Lorenzo's Robbinsville.   :(

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #952 on: December 11, 2013, 01:45:13 PM »
An updated article about Papa's Tomato Pies from their facebook page today.  http://hiddentrenton.com/?p=15&cpage 

I found some of the comments interesting.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #953 on: December 18, 2013, 07:49:14 AM »
I am not sure why the boardwalk style pizza crusts seemed better yesterday in my opinion.  The oven spring and brownness of the rim crust seemed better to me.  I did add 7 frozen boardwalk style dough balls that were first defrosted to a batch of the boardwalk style of dough.  I never added more than 3 frozen dough balls at a time to a fresh batch of dough before because I was not sure what would happen.  Some of the frozen dough balls were over a month old. 

I also wanted to add something that I thought was somewhat amusing happened about an older lady and her daughter yesterday that came to try the boardwalk style of pizzas.  They both first said they wanted to try my pizzas because the one lady said she had an aunt that was named Norma and they wanted to see what a Norma's pizza tasted like.  After they both tried a slice they came back and said how good the boardwalk style of pizza was.  Later they came back again and purchased more slices and again said how good they were.  They even tried the Detroit style of pizzas then.  The third time the younger one came back and asked me where else I had a pizza business that I sold the same pizzas and I said I am too old to be doing this more than one day a week.  The younger lady said she had brought her mother back because she saw the sign for Norma's pizza, but does come to market often and never saw my pizza stand before.  I said I have been operating the pizza stand for almost 5 years.  The fourth time they came back the older lady told me her son had opened a pizzeria and restaurant near Paoli in Pa. and before she tried my pizzas she thought her son's were the best but didn't know if her sons were the best anymore.  She purchased all of the slices I had in the heated cabinet and said she was going to take them to her son to taste.  The older lady did give me the name of her sons pizzeria but I was too busy to write it down.  I think hers sons pizzeria is call Mario's and I found that somewhat amusing too when she told me her sons name sure was not Italian.  Maybe her son took purchased a pizzeria that was called Mario's before.  They both asked me for my phone numbers to ask me more questions.  I was chuckling under my straight face and whipped out some of the dough formulations for the dough tools here on the forum and asked if her son weighs in baker's percents.  :-D  She said she does not know but will ask him.

The first photo is how dough balls are warmed up since it is colder at market.  If they are just left on the bench it takes them too long to warm up.  We had some additional snow showers in the afternoon yesterday besides the snow we had in the morning.  After I was finished washing dishes I went outside and by then my windshield with the snow on it was frozen.  I had gloves on but it was so cold outside that I guess my hands were not completely dried and my hands felt froze just from scrapping that snow off on the windshield.       

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10949
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #954 on: December 18, 2013, 11:35:16 AM »
Norma,
Of the 7 frozen dough balls you added(some being over a month old).....where any of those ever previously defrosted, then re froze during the month they have been around?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #955 on: December 18, 2013, 02:56:12 PM »
Norma,
Of the 7 frozen dough balls you added(some being over a month old).....where any of those ever previously defrosted, then re froze during the month they have been around?

Bob,

No, none of the frozen dough balls were previously defrosted.  They were cold fermenting for a day or a little more though before they were frozen.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #956 on: January 12, 2014, 03:57:39 PM »
Trenton Bill called me the last week and said he had made a DeLorenzo's pizza in his Blackstone unit that did taste just like a DeLorenzo's pizza.  He had been fiddling around with different bake temperatures and also different formulations.  Bill called me again today and said that he made another DeLorenzo's pizza that tasted the same. 

I find it interesting the formulation he used since it is a higher hydration formulation.  This is the formulation, method of mixing etc.

Flour 50/50 All Trumps and Baker's Best
Hydration 63%
.40% IDY
1.7% Sea Salt
1% light olive oil
TF .0683   Dough ball weight 9.5 ounces for a 14” pizza  Bowl residue compensation 1.5%

Bill said for the first pizza he cold fermented the dough ball for one day and for the second pizza he just left the dough ball sit out until it look like it was fermented enough.  Bill said he stretched the dough ball out and then rolled it with a rolling pin a little.  Bill said the dough ball was easy to open.  Bill said the whole bottom of the pizza was crispy and crunchy. 

Total mix time was 10 minutes first with the flat beater in Bill's Kitchen Aid mixer at speed 2 and then he changed to the C hook at speed two also.

Bake temperature in the BS was 580-600 degrees F.

These are the two photos Trenton Bill sent me in an email.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22258
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #957 on: January 13, 2014, 06:09:25 PM »
I tried this flour before, but not with the same formulation.  For some reason I was not impressed with it.  Purchased another bag and am trying it tomorrow with the current formulation I am using. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22179
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #958 on: January 13, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »
Norma,

Which way did you read the Full Strength flour bag--standing up or on your head? ;D

Peter

Online Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10949
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #959 on: January 13, 2014, 08:44:33 PM »
Maybe that's why it didn't work very good for her last time....they sending you bad bags Norma?  ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


 

pizzapan