Author Topic: An Idea  (Read 6378 times)

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Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 11:29:08 AM »
I'm a little confused on your goal. In your original post, you make it sound like someone selects a specific style of pizza, answers a few questions, and out pops a recipe. Neat and simple.

Actually, out pops a list of recipes. The user can continue to filter further if sub-styles exist within any given main style.

The recipes, if I have stages 1 thru 4 in place, will be all baseline recipes(as they were written). Nothing complicated about that, whatsoever.



Just my $0.02, I think the scope of this project is probably already a lot bigger than you think it is, and you might want to do things to limit the scope rather than expand it.

Working with databases, there really is no limit to what can be done, searched for or reasoned with. I have more than 15 years experience doing this kind of thing and have been building and hosting websites for over 10 years that use databases. What you can do with a pizza, Craig, I can outdo with web applications...well, maybe close! You have some pretty darn awesome looking pies!!  :-D


Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 11:42:56 AM »
Actually Craig, if you wouldn't mind, could you help in expanding the scope of ways to search the database? I can add an unlimited number of ways, such as search doughs with reduced oil, search doughs with thick crusts, light and airy crusts, shorter bake times, etc.

It will not complicate things at all. These can be part of an advanced search option where the user is warned that results will list may styles that they may not have the proper equipment or oven for. We can still add selectors to filter out what the user cannot use. Nevertheless, it is something that some may use, including a person who has almost anything at their disposal.

But of course, the main part of the application is aimed at taking a user to what that user is looking for.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 11:52:51 AM »
As Craig has brought up, there could be a number of ways in which someone might want to search for a recipe. I just found another. The "emergency" dough recipes thread. Some recipes in the database can be classified as "emergency", and thus, will pop up when someone searches for them.

Again. All angles of search are welcome and can be added very easily.

Offline derricktung

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2013, 12:07:20 PM »
I think Craig has a good point... We need to look at this from a basic user perspective of entry into the tool. 

There are really only three key factors for the entry level pizza maker to consider:

1.  What kind of pizza do you want to make?
2.  What kind of equipment are you using to make it with?  (Heat source, cast iron vs. baking steel vs. broiler vs. etc.)
3.  How much time do you have before wanting to serve the pie?

I would think the first screen would be filled with pictures/different base styles of pie (NY, Neapolitan, Chicago deep dish, Tavern, Cracker crust, etc.) while the second page would then provide a checklist of gear/heat sources (cast iron/sheet pan/baking steel, oven with top broiler/bottom broiler/WFO/green egg etc.)

A third page would ask "how much time do you have until you want to serve?" which can provide the ideas behind long cold fermentation vs. regular ambient fermentation vs. emergency doughs. for the different styles to pull up a recipe.

It can become far more complicated with the idea of "best ingredients" for each recipe, along with "substitutions" if you don't have access to key ingredients (e.g. 00 flour vs. AP flour). 

And then if we want to introduce technique, that's a whole other ball park of information... (Stretching doughs, etc.)  I'd almost want to cut this out of the scope for now since the variability here is huge for each style...

Just some initial thoughts...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »
Oven is one thing, accessory equipment is another...  First and foremost, this database is about dough. How to bake it and in what to bake it in, can be an easily added

Not really. Say two people have the same oven however one has a 1/2" steel plate and the other has a screen (or even a run of the mill pizza stone). They effectively have very different ovens and may benefit from different recipes even if they are after the same style. You need to consider the entire baking kit as one discrete element in the analysis. You can't look at the oven in isolation from the in-oven equipment any more than you can look at the dough in isolation from the oven. Dough and oven are part and parcel.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2013, 12:26:47 PM »
Not really. Say two people have the same oven however one has a 1/2" steel plate and the other has a screen (or even a run of the mill pizza stone). They effectively have very different ovens and may benefit from different recipes even if they are after the same style. You need to consider the entire baking kit as one discrete element in the analysis. You can't look at the oven in isolation from the in-oven equipment any more than you can look at the dough in isolation from the oven. Dough and oven are part and parcel.

I can further your argument. Say two people have the same oven, same specs. One fires the oven earlier, the other later. Say one fires the oven with White Oak. The other fires the oven with Eucalyptus. Maybe the one tends to the fire more regularly than the other. At baking time, they will have two extremely different results with their pies.

Those things can be addressed as issues on the forums, by you and other experienced members. I am trying to build a database of dough recipes, that can be altered according to known variables, to get the DOUGH to the optimum position at bake time to yield the best results. From the baking point on, expert advice may be necessary, especially in higher temp situations.

Believe me. I understand that "Bake at 930f for 70 seconds" is not a reasonable entry for a recipe.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:30:08 PM by f.montoya »

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2013, 12:31:07 PM »
Dough and oven are part and parcel.

What does this mean?

EDIT: I guess you are trying to say that if you make a dough that is traditionally baked in a specific oven, it must be baked in that oven?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:32:57 PM by f.montoya »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2013, 12:32:20 PM »
Actually Craig, if you wouldn't mind, could you help in expanding the scope of ways to search the database?

In my replies above, I was suggesting that you contract the scope - not expand it. Again, just my $0.02, but I don't see how it makes sense to do (at first anyway) anything beyond #1 and #2 in Derrick's post (reply #23) above. You might include same day and overnight formulas for each combination (sort of a limited Derrick #3). I don't see the people who will use this tool needing any more than that. Even limited to this extent, you are talking about a pretty large number of combinations. Building the framework is one thing. Finding the recipes to populate it is quite another.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if this actually gets built even with a scope much smaller than you have discussed to this point.

Pizza is not bread.

Offline scott123

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2013, 12:33:37 PM »
Fidel, while I applaud your desire to create something that simplifies the process for the home baker, I'm not sure that what you're describing will work for this forum.

The dough calculator works and is highly effective because it's cold hard number crunching. When you get into recipe selection and tweaking, you're entering into a subjective territory, and this forum has a multitude of opinions on just about every subject.  If you're developing a tool with the intent of representing the forum as a whole, all the opinions should be represented- and I don't see how you're going to achieve this.  Even something as seemingly simple as style classification isn't as straightforward as you might expect it to be.  While I think most of the forum agrees that Neapolitan pizza should be baked in 90 seconds or less, we get plenty of Kenji and Reinhart acolytes that feel differently.  Is your tool going to tell them that they're incorrect?

Don't get me wrong- I would love to see something official that corrects these warped views of Neapolitan pizza bake times, but... that happens to be an instance where the majority of the forum is correct.  There are other areas with far less clear cut majorities. .1 thickness factor is NOT NY style- many members subscribe to this concept- and many don't.  As you move into subjective areas (and there are countless),  you're opening up a can of worms as you try to represent the multitude of opinions.  Craig's rating system might go a ways in weeding good recipes from bad, but would you use a rating system to define style criteria, and should you?

And that's just the opinion side.  On the science side, there's gaps of information.  You're acting like a lot of the science of dough is understood and that variables can easily be accounted for.  Is isn't and they aren't.  For instance, as much as the directions of cake mixes would have you believe, there is no one size fits all correction for elevation. It took Chau and Bill a considerable amount of trial and error to compensate for their elevation, and I think they understand it better than most, but I'm pretty sure they'd be the last people to give you a one size fits all equation. Hard and soft water is even a less understood area- and an area, that imo, probably isn't even that important.  I don't think, in the general scheme of things, humidity ranks that much either- nor, like water hardness, are the effects of humidity that well understood.

Even a hugely important variable such as oven setup- a variable that this forum has poured over countless hours attempting to master every possible configuration iteration- there's still gaps here.  There's materials and configurations that have yet to be tested- there's successes that need to be replicated consistently.  For instance, countless home oven owners have gas ovens that don't exceed 500 and don't have a broiler in the main compartment.  Right now, the only proven option these people have is American Style.  Great Neo-NY in this kind of oven, right now, is just a theory.

Lastly, as Craig pointed out, there's oven configurations that introduce a myriad number of variables.  You've got one person with 1/4" steel, another with 1/2", one with cordierite, one with a different brand of cordierite with different properties.  The oven setup permutations can be massive.  When you start adding in other variables, such as flour protein content, the permutations can go through the roof.


If you want to come up with your own dough recipe calculator, using your own opinions of what constitutes each style and your own opinion of how to best achieve them with commonly found equipment and ingredients, and put it on your own web site, I think that might be helpful for a beginner, but if you're trying to represent the forum as a whole, I think you're biting off more than you can chew.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2013, 12:36:45 PM »
What does this mean?

EDIT: I guess you are trying to say that if you make a dough that is traditionally baked in a specific oven, it must be baked in that oven?

No, it doesn't mean that at all. It means exactly what it says. You can't look at either in isolation with a specific goal in mind. For example, if you are going to make NP in a WFO, you probably don't add sugar to the dough. If you are going to make a NP approximation in a home oven you probably do though the the type of stone/steel, broiler wattage, etc. will play a role in the decision.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2013, 12:38:40 PM »
In my replies above, I was suggesting that you contract the scope - not expand it. Again, just my $0.02, but I don't see how it makes sense to do (at first anyway) anything beyond #1 and #2 in Derrick's post (reply #23) above. You might include same day and overnight formulas for each combination (sort of a limited Derrick #3). I don't see the people who will use this tool needing any more than that. Even limited to this extent, you are talking about a pretty large number of combinations. Building the framework is one thing. Finding the recipes to populate it is quite another.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if this actually gets built even with a scope much smaller than you have discussed to this point.

Sorry. I already began to take it the wrong way. I even take "I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if this actually gets built" as somewhat of an insult, as if I have disappointed you before.

If you can be a strong critic of the project, in ways that will improve it, I welcome your comments to the max, which I hope I am doing so. If you would like to kill the project, please say so and I will drop it.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2013, 12:48:58 PM »
No, it doesn't mean that at all. It means exactly what it says. You can't look at either in isolation with a specific goal in mind. For example, if you are going to make NP in a WFO, you probably don't add sugar to the dough. If you are going to make a NP approximation in a home oven you probably do though the the type of stone/steel, broiler wattage, etc. will play a role in the decision.

Now, I, as a pizza maker for 10 years, did not know this. Craig, if you will work with me on this, we can help to filter and highlight things that anything a user may want, based on anything at all. Yes, the main page will take the casual home baker to what they want and can do with what they have in just a few short clicks. But we can further make this searchable and customizable for any kind of search. That is another reason why I am excited that Tom Lehmann will be helping with what he knows about how uncontrollable elements affect dough and how to compensate for them. If we can eliminate these issues via the app, then when they come on the forum for help, we have a very good starting point knowing they used the app for their starting recipe.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2013, 01:46:48 PM »
Sorry. I already began to take it the wrong way. I even take "I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if this actually gets built" as somewhat of an insult, as if I have disappointed you before.

If you can be a strong critic of the project, in ways that will improve it, I welcome your comments to the max, which I hope I am doing so. If you would like to kill the project, please say so and I will drop it.

It was not an insult, and it was not intended to be a reflection on what I think you are or are not capable of. To be clear, my comment was not that I didn't think you could do it. From a IT-technical standpoint, it sounds like you are more than capable. If anything, it is a reflection on what I know about myself - not you.

My gut feeling is that you don't yet even begin to realize the actual scope and complexity of the project you are suggesting. Even if you limit the scope significantly from what you've discussed, it is still an immense amount of work, and in my experience, enthusiasm for elective projects like this wanes as the true nature of the scope becomes clear. This project is also going to require a large amount of help from other people where you donít have the necessary experience. And thatís not a criticism of you. None of us has the experience do it on our own. Maybe as a first step, build a beta version that only includes the style you know best. Let people give you feedback on it. This should tell you a lot about what it is going to take to expand it beyond the first style.

I would never tell you to drop it. For all I know, the fun of building it may make it worthwhile for you even if nobody else was ever to use it. I would however encourage you to really think hard about the elements I have discussed and those Scott discussed and the literally dozens more that have not even come up yet - think about the 100's if not 1000's of combinations you will end up with and what the means in terms of sourcing data. There are 250,000+ posts here and no good way to search them other than putting on the reading glasses. Think about the things you don't know and how you plan to evaluate the suitability of recipes in that context.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 01:56:31 PM »
Fidel, while I applaud your desire to create something that simplifies the process for the home baker, I'm not sure that what you're describing will work for this forum.

You are 110% right. I am not concerned with how it will work for this forum, I am concerned with how it will serve the average home baker.

The dough calculator works and is highly effective because it's cold hard number crunching. When you get into recipe selection and tweaking, you're entering into a subjective territory, and this forum has a multitude of opinions on just about every subject.

I don't expect to reduce the usefulness of the dough calculator. I expect to funnel people to it based on what they are looking for...or at least provide the knowledge from a baseline recipe that they can consider using the dough calculator. Besides, I already explained that the dough calculator is not much use to those who don't know how to use it.

If you're developing a tool with the intent of representing the forum as a whole, all the opinions should be represented- and I don't see how you're going to achieve this.  Even something as seemingly simple as style classification isn't as straightforward as you might expect it to be.  While I think most of the forum agrees that Neapolitan pizza should be baked in 90 seconds or less, we get plenty of Kenji and Reinhart acolytes that feel differently.  Is your tool going to tell them that they're incorrect?

If it has been stickied, it should be in the database. If a moderator tells me it is is extremely popular, then it it should be in the database. If it's already listed on the "Recipes" link on the main page, it will be in the database. I plan to play no favorites.

Don't get me wrong- I would love to see something official that corrects these warped views of Neapolitan pizza bake times, but... that happens to be an instance where the majority of the forum is correct.  There are other areas with far less clear cut majorities. .1 thickness factor is NOT NY style- many members subscribe to this concept- and many don't.  As you move into subjective areas (and there are countless),  you're opening up a can of worms as you try to represent the multitude of opinions.  Craig's rating system might go a ways in weeding good recipes from bad, but would you use a rating system to define style criteria, and should you?

I'd like to keep this to "dough" and expected performance of that dough. It appears as though that you think that there should be some sort of test given before a dough recipe is added to the database. I tend to agree. At the current, I do not want to add anything that has not been at least tried by the mods or approved by multiple posters with their own results posted. If there is disagreement on a certain dough recipe and workflow, the I do not want to add it to the database. Plain and simple. My earlier posts did say "tried and tested" recipes. I'd like to keep with that theme.

And that's just the opinion side.  On the science side, there's gaps of information.  You're acting like a lot of the science of dough is understood and that variables can easily be accounted for. 

I am the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about the science of what makes dough tick. However, I think Tom Lehmann does understand a lot more than we do, and seems to be on board with lending his knowledge with regard to what makes dough do what it does under certain conditions. If I can quantify any of what he parlays to me, I can algorithm it.

For instance, as much as the directions of cake mixes would have you believe, there is no one size fits all correction for elevation. It took Chau and Bill a considerable amount of trial and error to compensate for their elevation, and I think they understand it better than most, but I'm pretty sure they'd be the last people to give you a one size fits all equation.

You're either saying, ignore elevation, live with its havoc, or ask Tom Lehmann.
Hard and soft water is even a less understood area- and an area, that imo, probably isn't even that important.


Great, as per Scott123, in this thread, this should be ignored too. That makes things even easier!

I don't think, in the general scheme of things, humidity ranks that much either- nor, like water hardness, are the effects of humidity that well understood.

Thanks, Scott. I'll strike those variables also.

Even a hugely important variable such as oven setup- a variable that this forum has poured over countless hours attempting to master every possible configuration iteration- there's still gaps here.  There's materials and configurations that have yet to be tested- there's successes that need to be replicated consistently.  For instance, countless home oven owners have gas ovens that don't exceed 500 and don't have a broiler in the main compartment.  Right now, the only proven option these people have is American Style.  Great Neo-NY in this kind of oven, right now, is just a theory.

This doesn't seem like an argument against making good resources searchable in a more convenient way. If it was, why not hide TXCrag1's Garage until you are sure that someone's oven meets the proper requirements? I saw that thread years ago when is didn't have a WFO. No difference here.

Lastly, as Craig pointed out, there's oven configurations that introduce a myriad number of variables.  You've got one person with 1/4" steel, another with 1/2", one with cordierite, one with a different brand of cordierite with different properties.  The oven setup permutations can be massive.  When you start adding in other variables, such as flour protein content, the permutations can go through the roof.

Then add those variaables to the recipe or the requirements. Is there an issue with that? It seems as though you don't want anyone to find these recipes, much less in an efficient way.


If you want to come up with your own dough recipe calculator, using your own opinions of what constitutes each style and your own opinion of how to best achieve them with commonly found equipment and ingredients...

Simply want to catalog what has been tested, tried and proven here.

...but if you're trying to represent the forum as a whole, I think you're biting off more than you can chew.

Now, that would be a waste of my time.


« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:19:26 PM by f.montoya »

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 02:10:22 PM »
It was not an insult, and it was not intended to be a reflection on what I think you are or are not capable of. To be clear, my comment was not that I didn't think you could do it. From a IT-technical standpoint, it sounds like you are more than capable. If anything, it is a reflection on what I know about myself - not you.

My gut feeling is that you don't yet even begin to realize the actual scope and complexity of the project you are suggesting. Even if you limit the scope significantly from what you've discussed, it is still an immense amount of work, and in my experience, enthusiasm for elective projects like this wanes as the true nature of the scope becomes clear. This project is also going to require a large amount of help from other people where you donít have the necessary experience. And thatís not a criticism of you. None of us has the experience do it on our own. Maybe as a first step, build a beta version that only includes the style you know best. Let people give you feedback on it. This should tell you a lot about what it is going to take to expand it beyond the first style.

I would never tell you to drop it. For all I know, the fun of building it may make it worthwhile for you even if nobody else was ever to use it. I would however encourage you to really think hard about the elements I have discussed and those Scott discussed and the literally dozens more that have not even come up yet - think about the 100's if not 1000's of combinations you will end up with and what the means in terms of sourcing data. There are 250,000+ posts here and no good way to search them other than putting on the reading glasses. Think about the things you don't know and how you plan to evaluate the suitability of recipes in that context.

Thanks for clarifying your position, Craig. However, I feel that it is I who has failed to clarify.

I am only trying to put what is already in these forums into a more user-friendly, searchable interface(Now you can't possibly tell me that the search function can do what I propose, can you?   ;) ).

What I want to do is build the 1-4 aspects of this app first, so that the most revered recipes on this forum, for many of the styles, show up in the search results page, along with any advise or adjustments necessary, base on any known variables. This is only about dough. and preparing dough for baking. This is not about ovens, oven prep, wood use, wood type, placement, timing, etc, It is my hope that if a recipe is followed well enough, then ovens, oven prep, oven type, and other thing like that will be focused on when someone comes to the forums for help. A baseline is established.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 02:22:55 PM by f.montoya »

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2013, 02:49:06 PM »
My gut feeling is that you don't yet even begin to realize the actual scope and complexity of the project you are suggesting. Even if you limit the scope significantly from what you've discussed, it is still an immense amount of work, and in my experience, enthusiasm for elective projects like this wanes as the true nature of the scope becomes clear.

I just felt the need to address this and below specifically.

1-4 I can have functioning and running by breakfast  Friday. It is NOT an immense amount of work. Probably 100 or so recipes and a 100 or so bits of variables that need to be advised each, if that. I normally build and deal with Major League Baseball databases that have hundreds of stat categories and thousands of categories and player entries, for an un-Godly number of things. We're talking about pizza dough recipes and variables that cause it to do what it does. To begin with, 1-4 are only about cataloging good and tried recipes. It takes me weeks to develop systems and interfaces that can retrieve and organize from a baseball database. Do you want to tell me that flour, water, oil , yeast(of whatever type) and salt can introduce more complicated work than that?

Apparently Scott thinks that humidity and water type, and such things, play an insignificant role in dough. That should make this app that much easier to use and create.


This project is also going to require a large amount of help from other people where you donít have the necessary experience. And thatís not a criticism of you. None of us has the experience do it on our own. Maybe as a first step, build a beta version that only includes the style you know best. Let people give you feedback on it. This should tell you a lot about what it is going to take to expand it beyond the first style.

I am pretty sure I mentioned that I need and appreciate any help. Limiting this application to only my own knowledge defeats the entire purpose, and only perpetuates the need for people to actively have to post and seek the assistance of you guys.

I would never tell you to drop it. For all I know, the fun of building it may make it worthwhile for you even if nobody else was ever to use it.

Craig, you have a way with words.  ;)

I would however encourage you to really think hard about the elements I have discussed and those Scott discussed and the literally dozens more that have not even come up yet - think about the 100's if not 1000's of combinations you will end up with and what the means in terms of sourcing data. There are 250,000+ posts here and no good way to search them other than putting on the reading glasses. Think about the things you don't know and how you plan to evaluate the suitability of recipes in that context.

Who decided what recipes ended up on the main forum's "Recipe" link? This is about cataloging what TXCraig feels is worthy, as well as other notable veterans here. NOT what I choose. However, I think that recipes already on the main website have a fast-track to the database, as well as To Lehmann's main recipes(and he appears to be willing to participate and support working on part 5 of the app).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:08:19 PM by f.montoya »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2013, 03:03:21 PM »
someone comes to the forums for help. A baseline is established.
I think this sounds brilliant Fidel and hope you create this tool.  :chef:

Bob
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2013, 03:11:40 PM »
Feliz,

If the end point of the exercise is a recipe, then you might want to first identify all of the recipes and then work backwards. What I think you will find is that there are literally hundreds of recipes on the forum. And most of them will not be written "cookbook style" and where everything is fully contained in a single place or post. Many of the recipes will have evolved over a long period of time, over possibly many pages of disconnected posts,  but yet not reduced to a final recipe with all of the relevant details.

We have a substantial number of members who join the forum just to find recipes. That is all. They have to join to do searches or ask for recipes, so they join. But when they feel they have found what they want, they leave, and usually return only to find another recipe. But they don't just want any recipe. They want a recipe that is written cookbook style with everything they need in one place. A good example of a thread that does that is the Papa John's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. For an example within that thread, see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. I cite this thread for two reasons. First, it is number 8 on the forum in terms of page views, with almost 144,000 page views. Secondly, most of those page views were due to people looking only for the recipes. You will note in this regard that this has occurred with very little posting activity once the recipes were completed and posted. The Tom Lehmann NY style thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html is also one with a lot of self contained recipes but with little current posting activity. That thread is the most viewed thread on the forum.

From time to time, I have tried to create collections of different kinds of pizzas and recipes to assist our members, both new and old. From the photo standpoint, see Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7799.msg67003.html#msg67003. From time to time I update this thread with new links to more photos but I just don't have enough time to do it on a regular basis. I also created collections of recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html. They are also periodically updated as the spirit moves me. What is most notable to me about these collections is the relatively small number of page views, especially after three or four years. That tells that members who discover those collections are unwilling to go much beyond scanning the entries in those threads. The recipes don't go far enough. They are scattered all over the place and not reduced to single recipes with all of the relevant details.

As I see it, if you cannot identify all of the relevant recipes up front, the rest of the project becomes very difficult. I think you will also discover that members who were responsible for the best recipes that are identified, even those who are still with the forum, may be unable or unwilling to put them in a form that is most useful to others. In many of the cases, the authors of the best recipes are no longer on the forum.

In the past, we have had other members suggest that the best recipes be collected in some fashion. And in many cases, the suggestions were good ones. But the first question I asked in each such instance is "Who is going to do all of the work needed to do that?" That question always goes unanswered.

Peter

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2013, 03:17:05 PM »
Dough and oven are part and parcel.

So, what does the above mean?

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2013, 03:39:19 PM »
Feliz,

If the end point of the exercise is a recipe, then you might want to first identify all of the recipes and then work backwards. What I think you will find is that there are literally hundreds of recipes on the forum. And most of them will not be written "cookbook style" and where everything is fully contained in a single place or post. Many of the recipes will have evolved over a long period of time, over possibly many pages of disconnected posts,  but yet not reduced to a final recipe with all of the relevant details.

We have a substantial number of members who join the forum just to find recipes. That is all. They have to join to do searches or ask for recipes, so they join. But when they feel they have found what they want, they leave, and usually return only to find another recipe. But they don't just want any recipe. They want a recipe that is written cookbook style with everything they need in one place. A good example of a thread that does that is the Papa John's clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. For an example within that thread, see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. I cite this thread for two reasons. First, it is number 8 on the forum in terms of page views, with almost 144,000 page views. Secondly, most of those page views were due to people looking only for the recipes. You will note in this regard that this has occurred with very little posting activity once the recipes were completed and posted. The Tom Lehmann NY style thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html is also one with a lot of self contained recipes but with little current posting activity. That thread is the most viewed thread on the forum.

From time to time, I have tried to create collections of different kinds of pizzas and recipes to assist our members, both new and old. From the photo standpoint, see Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7799.msg67003.html#msg67003. From time to time I update this thread with new links to more photos but I just don't have enough time to do it on a regular basis. I also created collections of recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8297.0.html and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html. They are also periodically updated as the spirit moves me. What is most notable to me about these collections is the relatively small number of page views, especially after three or four years. That tells that members who discover those collections are unwilling to go much beyond scanning the entries in those threads. The recipes don't go far enough. They are scattered all over the place and not reduced to single recipes with all of the relevant details.

As I see it, if you cannot identify all of the relevant recipes up front, the rest of the project becomes very difficult. I think you will also discover that members who were responsible for the best recipes that are identified, even those who are still with the forum, may be unable or unwilling to put them in a form that is most useful to others. In many of the cases, the authors of the best recipes are no longer on the forum.

In the past, we have had other members suggest that the best recipes be collected in some fashion. And in many cases, the suggestions were good ones. But the first question I asked in each such instance is "Who is going to do all of the work needed to do that?" That question always goes unanswered.

Peter


Hi Phil,

First of all, my name is Fidel, not Feliz(Where did you get this name from anyway?)

My intention is not to reduce the usefulness of this forum. Heck, I would be the first to admit that its usefulness cannot be underestimated. However, you have put these in a special place. Why? I'd just like to start by cataloging those. Lehmann's recipes seem to be open to add as well. Do you have a problem with that? I never intended to arbitrarily select what I thought to be the best recipes. I simply want to catalog and make what you, and others deem as quality recipes, searchable. Maybe my hope extends to wanting some of Craig's and Norna's stuff too(just to name few), but the project is a simple one.

If you have a straightforward objection, say the word. I would like to spend more of my time coding a great app that benefits a lot of people rather than sitting here typing to try to justify it against vets here that feel threatened by it and prefer the status-quot.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 03:41:53 PM by f.montoya »