Author Topic: An Idea  (Read 6989 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2013, 03:57:54 PM »
Fidel,

I apologize for the misappelation. I have spent Xmas in Mexico for the last several years and I guess Feliz stuck in my mind.

I am only a Moderator on the forum. The owner and Administrator of the forum is Steve (Zinski). He decides on major changes to the forum. As for the forum's recipe section, I described its origins and evolution at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18526.msg180211/topicseen.html#msg180211.

I have no objection to members volunteering to do work on behalf of the forum.

Peter


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Re: An Idea
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2013, 04:43:42 PM »
Fidel,

I think your idea is brilliant. 

Your comment above to Peter reminded me of something I suggested a while back which is a wiki to go along with the forum.  As you correctly observed, due to its vast size and organization, it can be difficult to unearth the great wealth of knowledge contained here.  A wiki could help remedy the difficulty in searching by providing a more encyclopedic format.  There is even an integration tool  that allows wikimedia software to be used in conjunction with an existing Simple Machines Forum. 

When I suggested a wiki, I think the reaction was somewhat similar to some of the comments you are now getting, with people pointing out the various problems associated with a wiki, particularly selection of material and maintenance.  All of which were very legitimate points.  So far as I know no one has moved to create a wiki yet.  And we still have a forum that is difficult to search (made somewhat easier by Peter's collections of message threads, which I do appreciate). 

Think of the comments and questions above as "peer review" which can help you focus your attention on the parameters of the project.  I think that if we can harness the fantastic knowledge of the members here with your idea and programming skills we will have a unique and wonderful tool that will be a big help to pizza enthusiasts.   Let's do it! 

Regards,

TinRoof


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2013, 06:39:16 PM »
So, what does the above mean?

Still means the same thing as when I answered up in response #29 above.  :)

Pizza is not bread.

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2013, 06:46:10 PM »
Fidel, I love this idea. I'm somewhat naive regarding the complexities of the project you propose suffice to say if you can make it happen that would be awesome  :pizza:
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 06:55:50 PM by Mal »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2013, 06:48:57 PM »
1-4 I can have functioning and running by breakfast  Friday. It is NOT an immense amount of work.

To borrow an infamous quote from scott123. If you can do that, I'll eat my hat.  ;D
Pizza is not bread.

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2013, 07:30:12 PM »
This is not about ovens, oven prep, wood use, wood type, placement, timing, etc

The single most common pitfall that the beginning pizzamaker falls into is believing that if they just get the right recipe, all will be well. For the two most popular styles on the forum, NY and Neapolitan, bake time is at least 80% of the equation.   In your first post you referenced 'equipment and oven requirements' so I mistakenly assumed you were taking an oven-aware approach and, in turn, trying to tackle the massive amount of complexity involved with oven configurations.  Putting the most popular recipes in a database in an oven-unaware context would certainly be considerably easier, but it doesn't do the beginning pizzamaker much of a service, as it only tends to reinforce their misguided 'recipe holy grail' consciousness.

It seems as though you don't want anyone to find these recipes, much less in an efficient way.

How many copies of American Pie did Reinhart sell?  While there's plenty of bad pizza recipes on the internet, there's also plenty of them that come close to the recipes on the forum.  By the time people make it to this forum, they've tried at least one viable recipe.  The problem isn't that they've never had access to the right formula, it's that Reinhart and Alton Brown never took the time to explain to them the connection between fast bake times and great pizza.

In all my time here, I've never come across a single member who didn't, after grasping the concept of the importance of bake time, easily pick up a solid style specific recipe to go along with their oven setup.

Offline apizza

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2013, 09:11:34 PM »
Fidel, I hope you go ahead with this project. What ever you produce can be fine tuned after members give it a look.
In reply 40 Peter said that major forum changes must be approved by Steve, and I certainly agree with that.  I see this as a tool made available, not a forum change, but of course it's up to Steve.

I already make a great pizza, and it's great because my family says so. That's who I bake for. I am in awe at what I see here by other members. I probably won't get to that point, but I enjoy trying different recipes, and your project may make them readily available. I'd like that.
Marty

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2013, 09:41:57 PM »
Fidel, I hope you go ahead with this project. What ever you produce can be fine tuned after members give it a look.
In reply 40 Peter said that major forum changes must be approved by Steve, and I certainly agree with that.  I see this as a tool made available, not a forum change, but of course it's up to Steve.

I already make a great pizza, and it's great because my family says so. That's who I bake for. I am in awe at what I see here by other members. I probably won't get to that point, but I enjoy trying different recipes, and your project may make them readily available. I'd like that.
Marty
+1 Fidel ! Just post something up and if it works to the benefit of the forum Steve will find a spot for it...he's a great guy.

And if I can help you in some way as far as helping track down things Chicago pizza style wise; just let me
know. I can't type very well but I can search; cut an paste, and create lists or something like that for you if that could help.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2013, 09:42:42 PM »
Still means the same thing as when I answered up in response #29 above.  :)

Sorry about that, Craig. I re-read that post and I think I got what you're saying now. :)

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2013, 09:49:53 PM »
The single most common pitfall that the beginning pizzamaker falls into is believing that if they just get the right recipe, all will be well. For the two most popular styles on the forum, NY and Neapolitan, bake time is at least 80% of the equation.   In your first post you referenced 'equipment and oven requirements' so I mistakenly assumed you were taking an oven-aware approach and, in turn, trying to tackle the massive amount of complexity involved with oven configurations.  Putting the most popular recipes in a database in an oven-unaware context would certainly be considerably easier, but it doesn't do the beginning pizzamaker much of a service, as it only tends to reinforce their misguided 'recipe holy grail' consciousness.

How many copies of American Pie did Reinhart sell?  While there's plenty of bad pizza recipes on the internet, there's also plenty of them that come close to the recipes on the forum.  By the time people make it to this forum, they've tried at least one viable recipe.  The problem isn't that they've never had access to the right formula, it's that Reinhart and Alton Brown never took the time to explain to them the connection between fast bake times and great pizza.

In all my time here, I've never come across a single member who didn't, after grasping the concept of the importance of bake time, easily pick up a solid style specific recipe to go along with their oven setup.

Point well taken, Scott. I think "prerequisites" as well as warnings need to be emphasized, as well as the importance of oven temperatures with each and every recipe...especially where NY and NP are concerned. I wouldn't want someone to think that just because they got their hands on one of Craig's workflow details, that they can produce the same results. The main thing that this tool should give is the "confidence" that the dough will be of a certain quality, and to a point, they should be able to get good results, so long as they DO have the right equipment and a little experience with "handling" that dough. These, and any others you can think of along the same lines, should be emphasized with any of the search results.


Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2013, 09:51:08 PM »

And if I can help you in some way as far as helping track down things Chicago pizza style wise; just let me
know...

That would be awesome!!! Thank you, Bob!

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2013, 04:04:42 AM »
Most of the CSS and php framework is in place, on my server at the moment...

http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/

 Now I will work on building sets of database tables to dynamically populate those pages.

Offline Pizzaboyo

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2013, 04:54:05 AM »
I think this sounds brilliant Fidel and hope you create this tool.  :chef:

Bob
I agree with Bob but bear in mind not everyone has access to the same ingredients either i.e. flour (no all trumps, king Arthur or Caputo here  :-[) also for the home pizza maker there are different type ovens i.e. I don't have one with a bottom heating element for heating the stone it's a fan oven etc. Brilliant idea though and I know I'd benefit greatly from such a tool.
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline norma427

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2013, 09:04:03 AM »
Fidel,

I don't have any objections to what you are trying to do and actually think your idea is good if it benefits members here on the forum. 

As for my experiments on this forum though, most of them started at home and then transferred over to a commercial oven and a commercial mixer, so I don't think most of my experiments and later some successful pizzas would help a home pizza maker very much.  To give you an example about using some of my formulations in my home oven, I would not get the same results that I do when using my Baker's Pride oven.  I even fiddle around with temperatures in that oven all the time and what I find is interesting only to me.  I still haven't found the perfect pizza, or formulation to bake in that oven.  It is a continuing journey for me.  To add to what I just posted, the variables of mixing in different kinds of mixers, mix times, mixing ingredients sequences, final dough temperatures, flours, formulations, forming dough balls, stretching abilities, etc. can only add to confusion for a home pizza maker, unless they are willing to do the experiments and learn from there.  I also have been lucky to have access to professional flours, sauces and cheeses to play around with in my experiments, which most home pizza makers don't have access to.

As for new members that come here just for recipes and then quickly leave without any photos or them telling about their pizzas, why give them easier access to everything in one place.  They don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum either in my opinion.  I for one believe in doing the experiments then posting about them.  It is in those experiments and also experiments by other members that is where everyone learns, plus the guidance of other forum members on what to try if something goes wrong. 

I haven't even tried some of the great pizza formulations some members set-forth.  There is a wealth of great formulations and final pizzas on this forum by many members.  One thing I really don't understand is how you will find the best formulations among all that is here. 

Maybe I really don't really understand what you want to accomplish. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2013, 11:05:29 AM »
Hi Norma,

I completely understand what you are saying. Let me clarify...

Quote
I don't have any objections to what you are trying to do and actually think your idea is good if it benefits members here on the forum.

That is the entire point. I will explain an idea that will further this point in a minute.
Quote
As for my experiments on this forum though, most of them started at home and then transferred over to a commercial oven and a commercial mixer, so I don't think most of my experiments and later some successful pizzas would help a home pizza maker very much.  To give you an example about using some of my formulations in my home oven, I would not get the same results that I do when using my Baker's Pride oven.  I even fiddle around with temperatures in that oven all the time and what I find is interesting only to me.  I still haven't found the perfect pizza, or formulation to bake in that oven.  It is a continuing journey for me.  To add to what I just posted, the variables of mixing in different kinds of mixers, mix times, mixing ingredients sequences, final dough temperatures, flours, formulations, forming dough balls, stretching abilities, etc. can only add to confusion for a home pizza maker, unless they are willing to do the experiments and learn from there.  I also have been lucky to have access to professional flours, sauces and cheeses to play around with in my experiments, which most home pizza makers don't have access to.

Yes. It might be impossible for anyone to duplicate your results, or anyone else's results for that matter, just by following a recipe and a workflow and list of ingredients. However, the idea here is to take what Pete-zza has already done in various parts of the forum(his compilations of recipes on different styles and accompanying links) and make them "searchable" in various ways. I must admit that I did try one of your recipes last year before I built my WFO. and it wasn't bad at all!!! In fact, my wife preferred it to other stuff I had been experimenting with at the time. :) Regardless, I will not be making the decisions on what recipes make the database, but if you see anything of yours in the database that you want removed, it can be removed easily. :)

Quote
As for new members that come here just for recipes and then quickly leave without any photos or them telling about their pizzas, why give them easier access to everything in one place.  They don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum either in my opinion.  I for one believe in doing the experiments then posting about them.  It is in those experiments and also experiments by other members that is where everyone learns, plus the guidance of other forum members on what to try if something goes wrong.


You know, it may have been others feeling the same way and just couldn't put it into words. But I agree. I, and others who have volunteered, will be working on building the recipe database in a "beta" setting, on my server. What I would like to do is give the entire app and database to pizzamaking.com, so it can be installed, monitored and updated by select members and admins of this great site. This app can also be made a "premium" feature that only supporting members would have access to. That decision is not mine but once this app is out of beta, it is my intent to hand it over to Steve and I will provide support for it regardless of who he intends to allow to use it. In any case, if it were more of a premium feature, that may put your mind at ease with respect to this.

Quote
I haven't even tried some of the great pizza formulations some members set-forth.  There is a wealth of great formulations and final pizzas on this forum by many members.  One thing I really don't understand is how you will find the best formulations among all that is here. 

I'd like to start with the "Recipes" link on the main page, add some of the well used "Lehmann" recipes, and then add the stuff that Pete-zza compiled in some of his posts that he meant for easy access. After that, it would be up to the admins what gets added. I have some favorites but I will refrain adding them myself. I am only concerned with building the tool at the moment. Maybe later I might petition to have a recipe added but I'd rather not add any myself.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 11:16:57 AM by f.montoya »

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2013, 11:12:17 AM »
Screenshots of the app and admin section so far. You can roam around the front end here, but no recipes have been added yet.


Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2013, 11:30:51 AM »
... add some of the well used "Lehmann" recipes, and then add the stuff that Pete-zza compiled in some of his posts that he meant for easy access. After that, it would be up to the admins what gets added. I have some favorites but I will refrain adding them myself. I am only concerned with building the tool at the moment. Maybe later I might petition to have a recipe added but I'd rather not add any myself.


Along these lines, until your project becomes part of this forum, you should consider getting permission from  the creator of any content that you include in your database. I can't imagine anyone objecting, but it would be the courteous thing to do, regardless of the legalities.

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2013, 11:31:57 AM »
A rundown on the status of the app so far...

* Added all pages for the front end, including main searches.

* Database can be searched by style and by recipes that fit for a certain type of oven

* Ingredient categories can be added, deleted and edited

* Ingredients can be added (and edited) to the ingredient category listings. These will be used for simple dropdown menus to make recipe entries easy for the administrators.



By sometime Friday morning (EDT), I should have the entire structure of the database and admin area ready to support 1-4 of my initial plan. There seems to be some controversy over #5, so I will wait on that for now.

If you notice something that is inaccurate, should be another way or needs adding, please let me know. I am an expert with coding, not pizza styles!  :-D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2013, 11:33:34 AM »
Steve can speak for himself, but he set up the forum to be a free and open public resource on pizza related matters. Legally, the forum is set up as a not for profit enterprise, quite possibly under section 501c(3) (as is the case with eGullet). As such, there are rules and regulations that have to be complied with to keep out of trouble with the IRS.

We are always going to have members join just to get recipes. I suspect that most people who are looking only for recipes would prefer to just search for them without being members. For forum security and anti-spam reasons, Steve has set up a system for registering new members in a way that does not pose potential harm to the forum while at the same time encouraging new members to stay for a while and contribute to the forum in a constructive way. My view is that anything that gets new members to what they are looking for faster and easier may be a help to the forum and to those members who work with new members. So, if Fidel can produce something that yields that result, that would be a good thing if it can be implemented on the forum. However, having seen well over 20,000 new members pass through the forum's turnstiles over the past nine years, and carefully observing their behavior and patterns over that time, I am not sure how they would react to a system as Fidel contemplates. Usually, recipe seekers tend to be lurkers and do not often post on the forum so it is possible that they will remain in the shadows with any system the Fidel might be able to come up with.

Peter

Offline f.montoya

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Re: An Idea
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2013, 11:39:04 AM »

Along these lines, until your project becomes part of this forum, you should consider getting permission from  the creator of any content that you include in your database. I can't imagine anyone objecting, but it would be the courteous thing to do, regardless of the legalities.

For the time being, it's just a piece of software being built. There will be some content added before this is handed over to Steve, but most of it will be what is already highlighted in one way or another already on this site. Regardless of legalities or being courteous(which I am all for), it's just an organized "search" feature of what is already posted and public. All recipes entries will include links to where they originated. As I said in a post previous, it is easy to remove recipes, if one so requests.