Author Topic: An Idea  (Read 7114 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12949
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: An Idea
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2013, 11:57:27 AM »
By sometime Friday morning (EDT), I should have the entire structure of the database and admin area ready to support 1-4 of my initial plan.

Just to be clear, there will be no hat-eating unless 1-4 are fully functional tomorrow morning. "Ready to support" doesn't count.  :-D

Quote
1-4 I can have functioning and running by breakfast  Friday. It is NOT an immense amount of work. Probably 100 or so recipes and a 100 or so bits of variables that need to be advised each, if that.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2013, 12:03:04 PM »

You know, it may have been others feeling the same way and just couldn't put it into words. But I agree. I, and others who have volunteered, will be working on building the recipe database in a "beta" setting, on my server. What I would like to do is give the entire app and database to pizzamaking.com, so it can be installed, monitored and updated by select members and admins of this great site. This app can also be made a "premium" feature that only supporting members would have access to. That decision is not mine but once this app is out of beta, it is my intent to hand it over to Steve and I will provide support for it regardless of who he intends to allow to use it. In any case, if it were more of a premium feature, that may put your mind at ease with respect to this.


I think that making this any sort of pay/premium service would defeat one of it's most valuable purposes. And that is to free up moderators time(sorting/placing posts)and also cut down the repetitive questions posed to members by noobs.

As far as "earning your meal" goes...those people that grab an run will always be there. So why not help send them on their way with a tool that cuts down on our work? There will always still be plenty of folks needing further help/discussion.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline f.montoya

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 329
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Land of the Rising Sun
Re: An Idea
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2013, 12:05:52 PM »
Steve can speak for himself, but he set up the forum to be a free and open public resource on pizza related matters. Legally, the forum is set up as a not for profit enterprise, quite possibly under section 501c(3) (as is the case with eGullet). As such, there are rules and regulations that have to be complied with to keep out of trouble with the IRS.

We are always going to have members join just to get recipes. I suspect that most people who are looking only for recipes would prefer to just search for them without being members. For forum security and anti-spam reasons, Steve has set up a system for registering new members in a way that does not pose potential harm to the forum while at the same time encouraging new members to stay for a while and contribute to the forum in a constructive way. My view is that anything that gets new members to what they are looking for faster and easier may be a help to the forum and to those members who work with new members. So, if Fidel can produce something that yields that result, that would be a good thing if it can be implemented on the forum. However, having seen well over 20,000 new members pass through the forum's turnstiles over the past nine years, and carefully observing their behavior and patterns over that time, I am not sure how they would react to a system as Fidel contemplates. Usually, recipe seekers tend to be lurkers and do not often post on the forum so it is possible that they will remain in the shadows with any system the Fidel might be able to come up with.

Peter

Peter, one need not join to browse the forums. I lurked here for at least 7 years or so before joining and found plenty of recipes. I own and operate a small webhosting company called AllSimBaseball, which is a niche webhost that hosts and supports websites that play a simulation baseball game. I have done quite extensive research on the subject of SEO and what "lurkers" do and how they behave with certain choices in front of them. Surprisingly, the majority who receive or gain access to something free and without red tape, often return to the same site at the rate of over 77%.

It is my intention to add forum links to each recipe. This serves as a doorway to more information on what they are visiting for, and the serious-minded will no doubt see the merits of joining.

That said, with respect to your observations on visitor behavior, it is likely that 95% of first-time visitors are just looking for a quick recipe and are not even remotely interested in "pizza-making" as a passion, or even a hobby. The contributing members on this forum seem to not want to share what they have easily to these "guests", unless they join and "contribute". In a "not-for-profit" situation, that is a sticky issue. But what about the other 5% who take their pizza making seriously? Do you think they will just drop by, grab a recipe and never return? I don't think so. They will lock-in immediately and faster than before because they found the site not only useful, but organized and links to forum threads will pique their interest for more.

In closing, we can't expect every visitor looking for a recipe to join and contribute. But we can expect them to return, or even bookmark and recommend the site. BTW, where are the FaceBook and Twitter "Like" buttons?  :-D

Offline f.montoya

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 329
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Land of the Rising Sun
Re: An Idea
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »
Just to be clear, there will be no hat-eating unless 1-4 are fully functional tomorrow morning. "Ready to support" doesn't count.  :-D

LOL! I meant the app feature would be "fully functional", and it will be. The amount of recipes (100 or so), etc. were merely an estimation added to that post. Regardless, I won't ask you to eat your hat. I'd rather PM you some questions I have on certain aspects of the app, if you don't mind.  :-D

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: An Idea
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »
Hi Norma,

I completely understand what you are saying. Let me clarify...

That is the entire point. I will explain an idea that will further this point in a minute.
Yes. It might be impossible for anyone to duplicate your results, or anyone else's results for that matter, just by following a recipe and a workflow and list of ingredients. However, the idea here is to take what Pete-zza has already done in various parts of the forum(his compilations of recipes on different styles and accompanying links) and make them "searchable" in various ways. I must admit that I did try one of your recipes last year before I built my WFO. and it wasn't bad at all!!! In fact, my wife preferred it to other stuff I had been experimenting with at the time. :) Regardless, I will not be making the decisions on what recipes make the database, but if you see anything of yours in the database that you want removed, it can be removed easily. :)
 

You know, it may have been others feeling the same way and just couldn't put it into words. But I agree. I, and others who have volunteered, will be working on building the recipe database in a "beta" setting, on my server. What I would like to do is give the entire app and database to pizzamaking.com, so it can be installed, monitored and updated by select members and admins of this great site. This app can also be made a "premium" feature that only supporting members would have access to. That decision is not mine but once this app is out of beta, it is my intent to hand it over to Steve and I will provide support for it regardless of who he intends to allow to use it. In any case, if it were more of a premium feature, that may put your mind at ease with respect to this.

I'd like to start with the "Recipes" link on the main page, add some of the well used "Lehmann" recipes, and then add the stuff that Pete-zza compiled in some of his posts that he meant for easy access. After that, it would be up to the admins what gets added. I have some favorites but I will refrain adding them myself. I am only concerned with building the tool at the moment. Maybe later I might petition to have a recipe added but I'd rather not add any myself.

Fidel,

Thanks for explaining more.  ;)  I think I understand your objective goals better now.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline f.montoya

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 329
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Land of the Rising Sun
Re: An Idea
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2013, 12:16:23 PM »
I think that making this any sort of pay/premium service would defeat one of it's most valuable purposes. And that is to free up moderators time(sorting/placing posts)and also cut down the repetitive questions posed to members by noobs.

As far as "earning your meal" goes...those people that grab an run will always be there. So why not help send them on their way with a tool that cuts down on our work? There will always still be plenty of folks needing further help/discussion.

Bob

I may have reflected your concerns with my post above in response to "Pete-zza". I agree. However, I feel like i keep having to justify this project, rather than just create it and let Steve decide how it is used and field responses himself based on those decisions. If he wants to trash it, he can. If you want to implore him to feature it on his great site, that is again a choice that will be yours. Thanks for supporting the idea so far, Bob!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #66 on: May 30, 2013, 12:18:33 PM »
Just to be clear, there will be no hat-eating unless 1-4 are fully functional tomorrow morning. "Ready to support" doesn't count.  :-D
Dang Craig, that's a big'un!   ;D
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22296
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: An Idea
« Reply #67 on: May 30, 2013, 01:03:17 PM »
Peter, one need not join to browse the forums. I lurked here for at least 7 years or so before joining and found plenty of recipes. I own and operate a small webhosting company called AllSimBaseball, which is a niche webhost that hosts and supports websites that play a simulation baseball game. I have done quite extensive research on the subject of SEO and what "lurkers" do and how they behave with certain choices in front of them. Surprisingly, the majority who receive or gain access to something free and without red tape, often return to the same site at the rate of over 77%.

It is my intention to add forum links to each recipe. This serves as a doorway to more information on what they are visiting for, and the serious-minded will no doubt see the merits of joining.

That said, with respect to your observations on visitor behavior, it is likely that 95% of first-time visitors are just looking for a quick recipe and are not even remotely interested in "pizza-making" as a passion, or even a hobby. The contributing members on this forum seem to not want to share what they have easily to these "guests", unless they join and "contribute". In a "not-for-profit" situation, that is a sticky issue. But what about the other 5% who take their pizza making seriously? Do you think they will just drop by, grab a recipe and never return? I don't think so. They will lock-in immediately and faster than before because they found the site not only useful, but organized and links to forum threads will pique their interest for more.

In closing, we can't expect every visitor looking for a recipe to join and contribute. But we can expect them to return, or even bookmark and recommend the site. BTW, where are the FaceBook and Twitter "Like" buttons?  :-D

Fidel,

You are correct. We have quite a few members who say that they were lurkers long before they decided to join. It seems to me that one of the reasons why a lot of people join is to use the forum's search functions. At one time, they were able to do that without becoming members. There were also times where lurkers could not see photos, which add enormously to the usability of the forum. For a while after Steve installed the new software, he reinstated that photo ban but another member complained that he wanted his friends to see photos of his pizzas. So, Steve reversed himself on this matter. Steve and the Moderators have tried many "systems" over the years to deal with the fact that we got a lot of members who use forum resources but give little or nothing back in return. For a while, we opened up pretty much everything to guests without having to join thinking that they would get what they wanted and wouldn't have to join. Yet, they still kept joining, and still did not give much back in return. I suspected that they joined to use the forum's search functions and, if necessary, to ask questions or seek help. Some also join to communicate with other members via the forum's PM backbone. When I got PMs from such members, I told them that they should post on the open forum. Members who do that rarely post on the main forum. Perhaps one of the few benefits of having large numbers of people join the forum is some income that might be derived if they click on advertising links. Very few new members make donations to the forum. It is minuscule. It is the hardcore members who form the heart of the forum who do that for the most part.

There was some discussion among the Moderators and Steve about the Like buttons. The final decision fell to Steve, and he decided not to implement that feature.

Peter

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: An Idea
« Reply #68 on: May 30, 2013, 01:07:49 PM »
  I also have been lucky to have access to professional flours, sauces and cheeses to play around with in my experiments, which most home pizza makers don't have access to.

As for new members that come here just for recipes and then quickly leave without any photos or them telling about their pizzas, why give them easier access to everything in one place.  They don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum either in my opinion.  I for one believe in doing the experiments then posting about them.  It is in those experiments and also experiments by other members that is where everyone learns, plus the guidance of other forum members on what to try if something goes wrong. 

Norma
Norma I made that point earlier about the flours and I think it's a very valid one and speaking as a "noob" I don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum as far as pizza making is concerned because I'm exactly that, a noob I'm not a professional, I don't work in any area of the business just make a pizza on Friday and Saturday nights with a few beers and some good music but I visit this forum regularly and love reading the posts even though some of them are way over my head  :-[ What I'm saying is why shouldn't people come to "pizzamaking.com" and get a pizza recipe? Maybe their attempts turn out crap and they realise their in the wrong place and leave OR maybe the find what their looking for and are happy with that.
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22450
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: An Idea
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2013, 01:29:58 PM »
Norma I made that point earlier about the flours and I think it's a very valid one and speaking as a "noob" I don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum as far as pizza making is concerned because I'm exactly that, a noob I'm not a professional, I don't work in any area of the business just make a pizza on Friday and Saturday nights with a few beers and some good music but I visit this forum regularly and love reading the posts even though some of them are way over my head  :-[ What I'm saying is why shouldn't people come to "pizzamaking.com" and get a pizza recipe? Maybe their attempts turn out crap and they realise their in the wrong place and leave OR maybe the find what their looking for and are happy with that.

Pizzaboyo,

I don't think you are like the majority of the new members that just come here to grab recipes.  You are posting your ideas and you have posted about your pizzas, which makes you a lot different in my opinion because you do care about learning and enjoy the pizzas you make.  I understand about the posts being way over your head sometimes.  :-D That also still happens for me.   I didn't contribute anything meaningful to the forum when I was a newbie at all.  I just keep asking questions and learned from my mistakes and am still learning. 

I really don't know if new members that come to the forum will be more interested in staying or returning more if Fidel does what he wants to do or not.  I really don't see anything wrong with new members or guests coming here and trying recipes, but don't think most of them will stay from the past statistics.  Maybe I am wrong and that is okay.  I think it is great if anyone can learn to make a pizza from this forum.   

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


scott123

  • Guest
Re: An Idea
« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2013, 01:51:14 PM »
As for new members that come here just for recipes and then quickly leave without any photos or them telling about their pizzas, why give them easier access to everything in one place.  They don't really contribute anything meaningful to the forum either in my opinion.  I for one believe in doing the experiments then posting about them.  It is in those experiments and also experiments by other members that is where everyone learns, plus the guidance of other forum members on what to try if something goes wrong.

These are my thoughts exactly.  The recipes are not the 'meat' of this forum. The experimentation is where this forum really shines. We already have a steady stream of new members/guests that just grab recipes and go, without really acquiring any true pizzamaking knowledge. I think that anything that encourages/streamlines this behavior should be avoided.

Peter spoke a bit about Steve's motives behind his decision to force guests to join in order to be able to use the search function. It's obvious this decision was rooted in the desire to encourage participation, rather than encouraging easier, 'streamlined' access to the site.  I applauded this policy when it was enacted, and I think, by the increase in activity the site has seen since it was initiated, time has shown it to be a worthwhile decision.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 01:55:20 PM by scott123 »

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2013, 02:07:41 PM »
I'm all for participation/experimentation but you are always going to have many who are not. The stop an shoppers aren't going away. You can make them continue to ask the same few repetitive questions and then disappear after you've spent time on them...or implement a tool to help send them on their way; allowing you to spend more time on those that want to hang out and truly learn. Odds are that as they tell friends about the sites easy peazzy tool...there will be folks among those friends who will want to stick around and be more valuable contributors.
Just my take on this.....

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

scott123

  • Guest
Re: An Idea
« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2013, 02:35:13 PM »
I'm all for participation/experimentation but you are always going to have many who are not. The stop an shoppers aren't going away. You can make them continue to ask the same few repetitive questions and then disappear after you've spent time on them...or implement a tool to help send them on their way; allowing you to spend more time on those that want to hang out and truly learn.

Bob, the harder it is for stop and shoppers to get the recipes that they're looking for, the greater the chances we can draw them into the participation fold.

While it can be incredibly frustrating when you help a new member and they vanish shortly thereafter, I would think that just about any member here would welcome any question, regardless of how repetitive, if it would increase the chance that someone would stick around, rather than use a tool and be on their way.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22296
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: An Idea
« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2013, 03:17:48 PM »
I am more inclined to agree with Bob than with scott123. No matter what system has been used, people still sign up to become members. It's free and more convenient than trying to navigate the forum as a lurker or guest. I estimate that about 95% of new members don't escape their introductory posts and those who do may end up with only a few more posts. This can be demonstrated by simply looking at the list of new members and noting how many names you can recall. I have also observed that the new members who do contribute meaningfully to the forum do not always stick around. Within months, most are likely to be gone.

I have concluded that the most effective way to control the situation is to charge new members for the privilege of being part of the forum. People are so used to getting what they want for free, even if they have to give intimate and private details of their lives or subject themselves to bombardment with advertising, that they won't pay for anything if they can help it. A potential problem with a pay/premium/subscription business model, or an advertising dependent business model, is that it might pose problems for a not-for-profit enterprise. Also, there may be some loss of existing members who might be required to pay to stay.

Peter

scott123

  • Guest
Re: An Idea
« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2013, 04:08:45 PM »
Peter, I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Are you saying that, since the vast majority of new members leave anyway, any tool that might streamline that process is not a bad thing?

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: An Idea
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2013, 04:13:55 PM »
Would it work to "grade" members i.e 50 posts gets a nickname like one slice or something and access to a certain amount of info and graduations after that say 100 posts gets access to the calculators etc. that would weed out the stop 'n shoppers from the real fans of pizzamaking and that's coming from me a non noob, cheers Norma  ^^^
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: An Idea
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2013, 04:15:51 PM »
the most effective way to control the situation is to charge new members for the privilege of being part of the forum.

Peter
Sounds very exclusive Pete.
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2013, 04:21:09 PM »
Would it work to "grade" members i.e 50 posts gets a nickname like one slice or something and access to a certain amount of info and graduations after that say 100 posts gets access to the calculators etc. that would weed out the stop 'n shoppers from the real fans of pizzamaking and that's coming from me a non noob, cheers Norma  ^^^
Sounds good Pizzaboyo but would require more moderators time and that is something that needs alleviating; not added to.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2013, 04:28:19 PM »
I would think that just about any member here would welcome any question, regardless of how repetitive, if it would increase the chance that someone would stick around, rather than use a tool and be on their way.
I agree completely with you. I'm just addressing those that no matter what...they aren't going to be sticking around. If you think creating/maintaing a stop gap of causing them to have to ask the basics; there by giving us a shot at causing them to stay...well, I just don't think that can/does happens in actuality.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11094
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: An Idea
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2013, 04:32:51 PM »


I have concluded that the most effective way to control the situation is to charge new members for the privilege of being part of the forum.

Peter
As a start...I would just simply take away the "search" feature. That should be a feature/bonus of becoming a $upporting member.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"