Author Topic: Genetically engineered wheat?  (Read 2530 times)

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Offline norma427

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Genetically engineered wheat?
« on: May 30, 2013, 09:27:58 AM »
Maybe I don't really understand this article, but I saw it on the web.  http://www.nongmoproject.org/2013/05/29/non-gmo-project-responds-to-usda-announcement-of-gmo-wheat-contamination-in-oregon/ 

I didn't even know there was such a thing as genetically engineered wheat.  Why would anyone be growing it in the first place?

Norma


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2013, 11:47:27 AM »
There isn't supposed to be any GMO wheat grown in the US for commercial production. There is some testing authorized though.

Unless you buy all organic foods, you are probably eating all sorts of other things with GMO DNA though. Almost all the corn  and soybeans grown in the US are GMO. Think about how many products have corn-derived sugar and/or soy-derived oil in them. However, by the time they get done with all the processing, there probably isn't a whole lot of GMO DNA remaining in sugar or oil products. Cornmeal and corn and soy flour are a different story. They are almost certainly ripe with GMO DNA.  Plenty of other vegetable crops may be GMO too, and plenty of animals are fed GMO grains.

According to the article, the GMO wheat found was a glyphosate-resistant variety. Farmers would like such a wheat because they could use glyphosate-based weed killers (believed to be very safe) to control weeds without killing the wheat. Sometimes glyphosate-resistant crops are called "Round-up ready" after the week-killer with the same name.

GMO crops have also been used to increase crop yields and help them to grow where they couldn't grow well previously. GMO has been able to increase disease and pest resistance, increase drought resistance, require less fertilizer, and increasing plant yield. It's good for profit and also good for places in the world where they can't grow enough food.

I would note that the article you cited is from an activist website, and is likely a bit alarmist. I bet if you search you can find other articles from news organizations that aren't quite as scary.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2013, 01:04:04 PM »
There isn't supposed to be any GMO wheat grown in the US for commercial production. There is some testing authorized though.

Unless you buy all organic foods, you are probably eating all sorts of other things with GMO DNA though. Almost all the corn  and soybeans grown in the US are GMO. Think about how many products have corn-derived sugar and/or soy-derived oil in them. However, by the time they get done with all the processing, there probably isn't a whole lot of GMO DNA remaining in sugar or oil products. Cornmeal and corn and soy flour are a different story. They are almost certainly ripe with GMO DNA.  Plenty of other vegetable crops may be GMO too, and plenty of animals are fed GMO grains.

According to the article, the GMO wheat found was a glyphosate-resistant variety. Farmers would like such a wheat because they could use glyphosate-based weed killers (believed to be very safe) to control weeds without killing the wheat. Sometimes glyphosate-resistant crops are called "Round-up ready" after the week-killer with the same name.

GMO crops have also been used to increase crop yields and help them to grow where they couldn't grow well previously. GMO has been able to increase disease and pest resistance, increase drought resistance, require less fertilizer, and increasing plant yield. It's good for profit and also good for places in the world where they can't grow enough food.

I would note that the article you cited is from an activist website, and is likely a bit alarmist. I bet if you search you can find other articles from news organizations that aren't quite as scary.

Craig,

Thanks for explaining more to me about GMO and other products other than wheat.  I sure didn't know about all of that.  I also didn't know about what a glyphosate-resistant variety of wheat was and then how farmers would like that because they could use glyphosate-based weed killers to control weeks.  You sure know about everything.   8)

Thanks for telling me that the article I cited was from an activist website.  I will search and see if I can find other articles from news organizations that aren't as scary.

Norma

Offline jsaras

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2013, 01:13:42 PM »
One of the reasons I like using white Kamut khorosan pizza flour is that it's organic and it has not been exposed to "modern plant breeding programs" which sacrifices flavor and nutrition.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/305670-the-benefits-of-kamut/#ixzz2UnTDrk00
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2013, 01:17:59 PM »
farmers would like that because they could use glyphosate-based weed killers to control weeks.  You sure know about everything.   8)

This one was fresh on my mind. I've been killing a bunch of weeds lately.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2013, 01:51:58 PM »
This one was fresh on my mind. I've been killing a bunch of weeds lately.

CL

Lol, Craig even if this was fresh in your mind since you have been killing a lot of weeds, your mind is still brilliant!

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 11:11:53 AM »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 11:37:04 AM »
Craig and anyone else that might be interested,

I did search on the web and the New York Times and other news agencies like the Washington Post also reported the same thing.

I wasn't doubting that it happened, I was just pointing out that you have to consider the source when evaluating the content. The original link you posted was from an organization that benefits entirely from anything that they can use to make GMO look bad and scary, and as you might expect didn't contain any quotes like this one from the NY Times: "officials said, it would pose no threat to health. The Food and Drug Administration reviewed the wheat and found no safety problems with it in 2004."
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Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2013, 12:01:32 PM »
I wasn't doubting that it happened, I was just pointing out that you have to consider the source when evaluating the content. The original link you posted was from an organization that benefits entirely from anything that they can use to make GMO look bad and scary, and as you might expect didn't contain any quotes like this one from the NY Times: "officials said, it would pose no threat to health. The Food and Drug Administration reviewed the wheat and found no safety problems with it in 2004."

Craig,

I agree that the the source has to be considered when evaluating the content.  I know that before when I posted an article from the Huffington Post.  :-[ I wonder why other countries are getting upset if it poses no threat to health.  I can't see it would pose any threat to health either.

Do you think this isolated finding will effect farmers in anyway that do grow wheat here in the US and then export to other countries?

Norma


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 12:49:59 PM »
Do you think this isolated finding will effect farmers in anyway that do grow wheat here in the US and then export to other countries?

It might. Other countries may try to use it as a way to artificially lower prices below what would otherwise be the market equilibrium rate. If so, it may lower wheat prices here as well. Maybe even more than the export rate if some countries ban US wheat altogether and it start backing up here. Probably not a whole lot of risk of this happening though. If they don't get it from the US, what happens? The US is a major wheat producer, and it's not like there is extra wheat produced globally every year and goes to waste because it isn't sold. If a country decides to go elsewhere, that could drive their cost significantly. If prices farmers in the US realize are driven down because of this, US Farmers will turn around and sue Monsanto (the company that accidentally let it loose) for lost profit.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2013, 01:33:03 PM »
It might. Other countries may try to use it as a way to artificially lower prices below what would otherwise be the market equilibrium rate. If so, it may lower wheat prices here as well. Maybe even more than the export rate if some countries ban US wheat altogether and it start backing up here. Probably not a whole lot of risk of this happening though. If they don't get it from the US, what happens? The US is a major wheat producer, and it's not like there is extra wheat produced globally every year and goes to waste because it isn't sold. If a country decides to go elsewhere, that could drive their cost significantly. If prices farmers in the US realize are driven down because of this, US Farmers will turn around and sue Monsanto (the company that accidentally let it loose) for lost profit.

Craig,

Thanks for your thoughts on what might, or might not happen.  I understand if other countries don't get it from us, then what.  I understand more now.

Norma

Offline zymurgymaster

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2013, 01:59:45 PM »
The "Farmer Assurance Provision" passed in March of 2013 allows companies that produce GMO's to get around the law for the most part.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 04:55:37 PM »
The "Farmer Assurance Provision" passed in March of 2013 allows companies that produce GMO's to get around the law for the most part.

That provision has no relevance in this discussion. It applies only to GMO's that have gone through the approval process and been deregulated by FDA. There is no deregulated GMO wheat. Even then, it only comes into play if a court ruling would otherwise block the sale of a deregulated crop.

What it does is prevent activist groups from de-facto banning GMO crops by suing farmers and getting injunctions from sympathetic judges before the farmer can plant legal GMO crops or preventing the harvest of planted GMO crops until the they are worthless.

Even if it did apply to wheat, while it may stop the Federal Government from banning the sale, but it sure as heck doesn't force anyone - let alone foreign countries - to buy our crops nor does it shield companies from liability.
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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 06:19:07 PM »
TXCraig1,

You are correct that there is no GMO wheat approved at this time.  But I wonder, if this is true, what are then next 13 seeds they are going to get into the ground before it expires.

"Prior to the billís passage, 13 new GMO seed crops awaited USDA authorization. Now these endorsements are almost certainly guaranteed, even though previous legal challenges overturned USDA sanctions of other GMO crops. No doubt Monsanto and other GMO companies will use the next six months to fast track their new seeds."

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 08:34:22 PM »
TXCraig1,

You are correct that there is no GMO wheat approved at this time.  But I wonder, if this is true, what are then next 13 seeds they are going to get into the ground before it expires.

Here is the list. Looks like it has grown a little: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/petitions_table_pending.shtml
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Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 09:32:18 PM »
It looks like the Mosanto Co. also resumed field trails of roundup ready wheat in Hawaii and North Dakota. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-31/monsanto-resumed-field-trials-of-roundup-ready-wheat.html

The article says that the Roundup Ready wheat in the field trails is ďan entirely different eventĒ than the escaped crop reported by the USDA, St. Louis-based Monsanto said.

Norma

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 04:40:12 PM »
Norma, thanks for opening a discussion on this Wheat topic. I recently became aware of it while watching the Dr. OZ show with special guest William Davis. In addition, a friend of mine recently recently told me similar things about the negative impact Wheat has on our health, but he took it one step further and cut all wheat from his diet. The result was that he lost 30 pounds in just about 2 months. That caught my attention.

This in NOT something I want to hear because I love my wheat products, my pizza hobby, and I recently started baking my own breads and even grinding my own wheat!  However, I think it's a good idea to take a closer look at this topic. William Davis is saying that the wheat we consume today is not the same as our parents had many decades ago, and it is a product of genetic manipulation. He calls it Frankenwheat.  I  have not made any conclusions yet. I'm just gathering info at this point in time.  ---pete---


Here's a 5 minute segment from the Dr. OZ show...
Dr Oz Episode w/Wheat Belly Author William Davis
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/are-you-addicted-wheat?video=15895

Here's a more detailed video presentation by William Davis

Wheat: The UNhealthy Whole Grain-Part 1



Wheat Unhealthy Whole Grain2




Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2013, 12:14:43 AM »
Norma, thanks for opening a discussion on this Wheat topic. I recently became aware of it while watching the Dr. OZ show with special guest William Davis. In addition, a friend of mine recently recently told me similar things about the negative impact Wheat has on our health, but he took it one step further and cut all wheat from his diet. The result was that he lost 30 pounds in just about 2 months. That caught my attention.

This in NOT something I want to hear because I love my wheat products, my pizza hobby, and I recently started baking my own breads and even grinding my own wheat!  However, I think it's a good idea to take a closer look at this topic. William Davis is saying that the wheat we consume today is not the same as our parents had many decades ago, and it is a product of genetic manipulation. He calls it Frankenwheat.  I  have not made any conclusions yet. I'm just gathering info at this point in time.  ---pete---


Here's a 5 minute segment from the Dr. OZ show...
Dr Oz Episode w/Wheat Belly Author William Davis
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/are-you-addicted-wheat?video=15895

Here's a more detailed video presentation by William Davis

Wheat: The UNhealthy Whole Grain-Part 1



Wheat Unhealthy Whole Grain2


Pete,

I appreciate that you posted the videos.  I think wheat as we know it now can be highly controversial.  I for one, don't like to hear that wheat is that bad for someone, just like you.  To put everything into better perspective as best as I know, there are many things that have changed over the years in foods. 

Norma

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2013, 01:35:52 AM »
Norma

You might find these articles written by "Uncle Henry" to represent "the other side."
As he states at the end of the first article-follow the money but there is a money trail on both sides.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2012/10/22/the-roots-of-the-anti-genetic-engineering-movement-follow-the-money

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/october/europe-vs-scientific-consensus

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2013, 01:50:09 AM »
Pete,

I appreciate that you posted the videos.  I think wheat as we know it now can be highly controversial.  I for one, don't like to hear that wheat is that bad for someone, just like you.  To put everything into better perspective as best as I know, there are many things that have changed over the years in foods. 

Norma

At least with some foods we can grow our own safer varieties in a home garden. Wheat is a whole different story. What I gathered from the William Davis videos is that we've already been consuming genetically altered wheat for decades now and the older processes of alteration are possibly more dangerous than the modern GM techniques.

To me, the scary part is how certain large corporations with extreme profit motives have control over our government. An excerpt from one of the articles you posted...

"Donít worry about the safety of GE wheat, however. The USDA is absolutely sure itís completely safe for you. And why? Because Monsanto told the FDA it was safe!"

« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 01:52:26 AM by petef »

Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2013, 07:56:10 AM »
Norma

You might find these articles written by "Uncle Henry" to represent "the other side."
As he states at the end of the first article-follow the money but there is a money trail on both sides.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymiller/2012/10/22/the-roots-of-the-anti-genetic-engineering-movement-follow-the-money

http://www.american.com/archive/2012/october/europe-vs-scientific-consensus

Bob,

Thanks for those two articles to show the other sides.  I understand science will never stand still and genetic engineers will always try to expand on the plants they they do genetic modification on.  I saw from Craig's post at Reply 14  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25481.msg257106.html#msg257106  just how many petitions there are for determination of non-regulated status.  I see from your second article that in those EU states they sure don't want genetic modification and are more skeptical on doing the genetic modification on different plants.  From your first article it told that Dr. Oz, his wife and the co-producer of his programs has been a longtime supporter of Smith and active campaigner against genetic engineering and in favor of Prop. 37.  It also see contained in your first article this letter.  http://academicsreview.org/2012/10/letter-to-dr-oz-show-producers-by-bruce-chassy-phd/

How are the common everyday people like me ever able to sort all of this out, when understanding everything without anyoneís help?

I heard that farmers in our area were concerned two years ago with some the wheat grown in our area and maybe if it had something called a fungal disease because of too much moistness of the ground from too much rain when growing the wheat.  Some farmers were concerned and other ones weren't, so that makes me wonder if they planted different varieties of wheat.  I heard, but don't know, that the fungal disease might contain dangerous substances that could impact the health of humans or livestock that ate it.  I know some of the farmers had to send samples somewhere to be tested.  In this next article it tells some about the Bio tech wheat.  http://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/pocketk/38/default.asp

I sure don't understand all of this, but do understand the money trail is on both sides.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2013, 08:08:23 AM »
At least with some foods we can grow our own safer varieties in a home garden. Wheat is a whole different story. What I gathered from the William Davis videos is that we've already been consuming genetically altered wheat for decades now and the older processes of alteration are possibly more dangerous than the modern GM techniques.

To me, the scary part is how certain large corporations with extreme profit motives have control over our government. An excerpt from one of the articles you posted...

"Donít worry about the safety of GE wheat, however. The USDA is absolutely sure itís completely safe for you. And why? Because Monsanto told the FDA it was safe!"

Pete,

I understand what we grown in our own gardens is probably safer.  I also think wheat has changed over the years, even without the Davis videos.  I recall when I was younger that the wheat fields in our area looked different in that the stalks were taller and the wheat part did appear bigger to me.  At least that is what I remember. 

I know what you mean about the USDA saying it is completely safe, but on the other hand it is because a big corporation like Monsanto told the FDA it is safe. 

I dislike to inflame the subject of wheat more, but don't recall of anyone I went to school with having Celiac disease.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2963738/   I have no idea if newer varieties of wheat had anything to do with more Celiac disease though if someone was genetically susceptible.

Norma

Offline ArmoredDragon

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Re: Genetically engineered wheat?
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »
I'm by no means an industry expert, nor am I invested financially in any way into anything related to agriculture, but I have studied microbiology and chemistry, and because of my kidney disease I've been studying diet heavily as well lately, and I've noted this:

- Wheat is in fact bad for you in general. This doesn't mean it'll kill you, but it is something to avoid for optimal health. It always has been this way, modern agriculture hasn't "changed it for the worse" so to speak. It's just now that science has discovered that our bodies weren't built around eating it. (That doesn't stop me from eating it though - but like anything, use moderation.)

- There's a ton of misconception about what we should and shouldn't consider food. This is mainly spread by alarmists who don't actually understand the science behind it, and will readily accept poorly done research as long as it supports their philosophical view (i.e. being vegetarian for example) while discarding outright anything they disagree with.

A common thing I see for example is that you shouldn't eat McDonalds burgers because they don't decompose. But if you look at real honey (most honey you actually buy at the store isn't 100% real honey, by the way, google "honey laundering" for more on that) they've actually found honey in egyptian tombs that is over 3,000 years old and still tastes sweet, but because honey doesn't have a corporate logo, activists don't go around trying to ban it due to a lack of a conspiracy theory. Dark chocolate kills dogs, yet at the same time it has known nutritional benefits to humans. Avacado's are toxic to most animals, but have high nutritional value to humans. Different species have different physiologies and different needs. Just because a bacteria doesn't want to eat it doesn't mean you can't, so food that doesn't bio-degrade isn't inherently bad.

- And for the soup de-jour of this thread: GMO. From what I know of GMO, all they're doing is modifying a very small number of DNA codons to produce a protein that causes the plant to be resistant to the active ingredient in roundup. Just for a perspective, every time a plant breeds, thousands of codons of different genes elsewhere mutate in different and unpredictable ways. You're far more likely to see an unknown mutation that causes harm in one of those than you are from a deliberate known change. The most cited study by anti-GMO groups is around one where some rats got cancer after being fed some GMO corn. The problem with this study is that the rats they used were already known to be prone to that form of cancer. Likewise, nobody has been able to reproduce that result, but it still goes on being cited anyways.

Common talk among them is also that they, say for example, take a gene from a fish and put it into a plant. Those lateral DNA transfers were only done as experimentation. All commercially sold GMO are invented DNA sequences, and they're very tiny ones at that - again, much smaller changes than normally happen from naturally breeding from one generation to the next. But, lateral gene transfers happen naturally. In fact, the human genome is known to contain gene sequences that originated from other species, and made their way into our own via viruses. It's currently known that we have three whole virus genomes embedded into our much larger genome, one of these actually took a trait from some other species that serves a vital body function. There are also a hundred thousand or so incomplete virus DNA sequences in our genome as well.

I could go on for a long time about this, but if you really want to know why GMO is safe, you should take it from the source of one of the founders of the anti-GMO movement, who has since realized that what he helped start was built around irrational fear of the uknown:

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/01/lecture-to-oxford-farming-conference-3-january-2013/

I HIGHLY recommend watching that video.

There is something you all might like that I can add to this: Imagine if we could grow wheat so that it both tasted good AND was healthy to eat. GMO may make that possible one day. I personally think GMO is a great thing, and we shouldn't get rid of it, we should embrace it - safely of course. It makes food less expensive to grow, and in the future it may make it higher quality as well (both taste and nutritional value). If your concern is about playing with nature and modifying our food in general, you're several millennia too late for that concern - we've been doing it since time immemorial. Most of the plants and animals we consume only exist because we created them from something else. Take the cavendish banana for example (cavendish is the banana you most commonly buy at the store) - this plant is completely incapable of growing in the wild. Ever notice that it has no seeds? We genetically modified it through selective breeding a long time ago. Wild bananas are mostly seed, and the seeds are so hard you can't chew them.

Here's an argument against the activists by the way: Many of them have vested financial interests in organic farms. Organic is often touted as sustainable farming that is healthier, but none of this has been proven true. Organic food costs more, and requires four times the quantity of pesticide as modern farming. And because the "feel good" nature of organic, it also has higher profit margins. If people go GMO on the other hand, that puts them out of business, so it's only natural that they'd try to stop it.

Personally I think it is immoral to ask somebody to pay extra for something when they gain no extra benefit. This is what organic currently is. In blind tests, organic has been found to have no different taste than modern agriculturally produced food. Nor is there any scientific evidence to suggest that it is healthier for you.

However organic is known to have lower yields and thus requires more landmass to farm, which means it is less environmentally sustainable than modern farming. If you look at the trend from the 60's in modern farming, the amount of food we produce has increased 300%, whereas the landmass we use has only increased by 12%. For organic this isn't true, the yields can only increase somewhat proportionally to the landmass because the technological advancement is stunted. For GMO we could still increase yields while even potentially decreasing the landmass required.

Personally I'm not going to tell you what kind of food you should eat, that's your call to make. If you like organic, great. But don't let activists put a halt to progress.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 02:30:17 AM by ArmoredDragon »