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Offline derricktung

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Soupy dough?!
« on: May 31, 2013, 12:30:27 PM »
So I was doing one more final run of pies last night to get a feel for the oven, get my equipment in order for tomorrow's market, and I opened up my dough box to find all the dough balls had "melted"!  Had to reball, wait for about 30 minutes before using them with success. 
Here's the process:

Mix dough (62% hydration)
Bulk ferment in refrigerator at 41 degree (Tuesday night)
Pull bulk from fridge to come to ambient temp (Thursday afternoon, 1:00 PM, 76 degrees ambient)
Ball dough (Thursday afternoon 3:00 PM, dough box at ambient temp)
Open dough box to find MELTED dough.  (7:00 PM, ambient temp)

I'm somewhat nervous about this happening at market tomorrow (can always reball in the morning if it seems to be an issue) but wanted to address this sooner if possible...

Anyone know what may have happened?  Too warm of ambient temperature?  Not enough gluten formation?  Not balled tight enough?


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 01:09:47 PM »
I Would not have let the bulk dough warm to ambient if all you were doing was balling. But then again you probably DO have to get your fermentation temp above 41 at some point in order for meaningful fermentation to occur.

But assuming you are getting some fermentation along the way --- just don't let the dough get that warm until you're ready to use it. Do you have refrigeration available at the market?

Sounds like you managed pretty well despite the issues!

Good luck!

John K
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Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 02:00:15 PM »
I Would not have let the bulk dough warm to ambient if all you were doing was balling. But then again you probably DO have to get your fermentation temp above 41 at some point in order for meaningful fermentation to occur.

But assuming you are getting some fermentation along the way --- just don't let the dough get that warm until you're ready to use it. Do you have refrigeration available at the market?

Sounds like you managed pretty well despite the issues!

Good luck!
John K

Thanks John!  This is just a new situation I've never encountered before, so was what mistake I made in the process.  I don't have refrigeration available (outside of a refrigerated prep rail), but we are using bags that control for temperature (+/-1 degree per hour, so it claims) along with a ice blanket to help keep the dough cool...

Reballing at home never bothers me.  I'm just concerned of it happening when a customer orders a pie and we don't have a dough ball that workable.


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 03:14:10 PM »
Derrick;
I don't mean to toss out the old and bring in the new, but for comparison, here is a dough management procedure that works well in a scenario as you have described. Possibly you might be able to glean something from it.
1) Mix do normally, but adjust the finished temperature to 80 to 85F.
2) Immediately scale and ball the dough.
3) Oil each dough ball and drop into a plastic bread bag. Twist open end to close and tuck under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge.
4) Dough will keep well in the fridge for at least two days.
5) After the dough has been in the fridge a minimum of 16-hours, they can be transported in an insulated chest with a few chemical ice packs.
6) The dough balls will be ready to use in about 2-hours after placing them into the insulated chest and they will remain good to use for up to 4-hours, possibly a little more.
Tip: If you need to have more than a 4-hour supply of dough on hand, pack in a few more ice packets, even a little dry ice can be used. Then, when you get to the point of sale, remove about a 3-hour supply of dough balls from the insulated chest and allow to begin tempering in another box without the ice packets. These dough balls will be ready to use in about 2-hours and will keep for an additional 3-hours in the nonrefrigerated box/chest. As you feel you need more dough balls transfer more from the cold chest to the nonrefrigerated chest for use a couple of hours later.
Like I said, maybe you can glean something from this.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 03:53:53 PM »
Derrick;
I don't mean to toss out the old and bring in the new, but for comparison, here is a dough management procedure that works well in a scenario as you have described. Possibly you might be able to glean something from it.
1) Mix do normally, but adjust the finished temperature to 80 to 85F.
2) Immediately scale and ball the dough.
3) Oil each dough ball and drop into a plastic bread bag. Twist open end to close and tuck under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge.
4) Dough will keep well in the fridge for at least two days.
5) After the dough has been in the fridge a minimum of 16-hours, they can be transported in an insulated chest with a few chemical ice packs.
6) The dough balls will be ready to use in about 2-hours after placing them into the insulated chest and they will remain good to use for up to 4-hours, possibly a little more.
Tip: If you need to have more than a 4-hour supply of dough on hand, pack in a few more ice packets, even a little dry ice can be used. Then, when you get to the point of sale, remove about a 3-hour supply of dough balls from the insulated chest and allow to begin tempering in another box without the ice packets. These dough balls will be ready to use in about 2-hours and will keep for an additional 3-hours in the nonrefrigerated box/chest. As you feel you need more dough balls transfer more from the cold chest to the nonrefrigerated chest for use a couple of hours later.
Like I said, maybe you can glean something from this.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks Tom!  Will try out this procedure to see how it goes!

I'm following something quite similar right now with my current set up for the market:

1.  Mix, bulk ferment 30 minutes.
2.  Ball, cross stack in dough boxes in fridge for about 10 minutes, stack properly.
3.  Pick up boxes in 60 hours, store in temp control bag with ice sheet.
4.  Remove ice sheet at market, measure temp, adjust as needed.  No more than one-two dough boxes out at a time, based on market size/timing/demand.

Your process will help me visualize how to better prepare... especially come hot weather.  Thanks!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2013, 04:58:50 PM »
Derrick;
I've found that I get better resultswith bagged dough balls then with boxed dough balls in a scenario like this. It is also easier to keep the dough balls clean, and even if they do over ferment a little you don't have to worry about them all growing together in the box, plus when you consider the time needed to scrape a dough ball out of a dough box (granted it doesn't take long) the time needed to turn a dough ball out of a bread bag might be faster and certainly easier too. I use a plastic food tub (with a snap on lid) to put the dusting flour in and a clean 5-gallon plastic bucket for the used bags. Considering the cost of the dough boxes and the need to wash and sanitize them regularly as you will be required to do as you have taken them out of your immediate kitchen area, the plastic bags might also prove to be cheaper too. You can buy plastic bread bags by the case from anyone selling to the retain baking industry (your corner bakery). If this is something that you will do on a limited basis, you might be able to buy a "wicket" of bags from a local bakery. This might save you the expense of buying a whole case of the bags.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline thezaman

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2013, 08:26:02 PM »
 i m not into playing with a lot of variables if you are doing this as a business. i think you should cut your hydration,mix you dough bulk rise for about two hours.ball it refrigerate it let it slow rise for 24 to 48 hours. pull it out four hours before you plan on using it. let it get to 65 70 degrees on the exterior before you cook. if it is wet you will have to use more flour on the exterior to dry it up and make it workable. the other variable is the amount of yeast you use.i use .002 wet per 1000 grams of flour.i find 48 hours at about 38 degrees makes a nice mature dough.just my method and it id consistent with no surprises. and if you keep you dough at a consistent temperature you will be able to work out of a dough boxes. i have seen some absolute blown dough look and cook beautifully but that is in the hands of pros who have many year of working with that type of dough.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2013, 10:28:38 PM »
derrick, i posted before looking at your website. you are doing a neo pie i do a strict neapolitan dough and i have to keep it simple. my mobile is an addition to my regular business and i have to stick with the method that has worked for me. your pies look great i would not change too much!!! keste makes dough like yours, it is hard to work with but the results are amazing.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 10:30:53 PM by thezaman »

Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 10:45:17 PM »
Derrick;
I've found that I get better resultswith bagged dough balls then with boxed dough balls in a scenario like this. It is also easier to keep the dough balls clean, and even if they do over ferment a little you don't have to worry about them all growing together in the box, plus when you consider the time needed to scrape a dough ball out of a dough box (granted it doesn't take long) the time needed to turn a dough ball out of a bread bag might be faster and certainly easier too. I use a plastic food tub (with a snap on lid) to put the dusting flour in and a clean 5-gallon plastic bucket for the used bags. Considering the cost of the dough boxes and the need to wash and sanitize them regularly as you will be required to do as you have taken them out of your immediate kitchen area, the plastic bags might also prove to be cheaper too. You can buy plastic bread bags by the case from anyone selling to the retain baking industry (your corner bakery). If this is something that you will do on a limited basis, you might be able to buy a "wicket" of bags from a local bakery. This might save you the expense of buying a whole case of the bags.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Great idea Tom!  I'm going to look into bags the next time I'm out to see what the cost will be relative to the dough boxes we already have... when you bag them, are they just going into a cooler then?  Grabbing a bag as you go, turning it out, and tossing the bag?  I'm assuming the bags aren't reuseable?

Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 10:49:46 PM »
derrick, i posted before looking at your website. you are doing a neo pie i do a strict neapolitan dough and i have to keep it simple. my mobile is an addition to my regular business and i have to stick with the method that has worked for me. your pies look great i would not change too much!!! keste makes dough like yours, it is hard to work with but the results are amazing.

TheZaMan - This is actually an additional business for me as well!  The day job as a project manager in healthcare consulting is what pays the bills.. this is the fun.   ;D  (Though I hope that this may have the opportunity to pay the bills someday!)

We had the same problem to some degree today (some very slack doughs coming out of the refrigerated walk in) so we reballed almost all of them on site when we arrived at the market.  I say almost, because we had 2-3 slack doughs that were in decent shape, not overly bubbly, and I figured we'd use them first to give it a whirl.  It's actually surprising... some of the "slack" dough that we used earliest came out with some beautiful pies with minimal effort (I barely had to even stretch it because of how slack it had gotten).  The reballed dough definitely required more "work" in terms of gently pushing/stretching it into shape.



Offline jamieg

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2013, 02:04:17 AM »
We always store dough balls individually in round plastic containers - it works perfectly - apart from the washing up.

In the past - when we ran out of individual containers - I had to switch back to larger rectangular containers with room for at least 8 dough balls.

I have no idea why - but within an hour or 2 - the balls had melted and joined together - the difference in behaviour was quite odd - and we had to re-ball them.

If you dont want to rush out and buy individual containers - you could test one - and see what happens.

Meanwhile, re-balling throughout a cooking session isnt the end of the world if you get the timing right ;-)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2013, 09:31:01 AM »
Great idea Tom!  I'm going to look into bags the next time I'm out to see what the cost will be relative to the dough boxes we already have... when you bag them, are they just going into a cooler then?  Grabbing a bag as you go, turning it out, and tossing the bag?  I'm assuming the bags aren't reuseable?
Derrick,

According to what Tom reported over at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10323&p=71078&hilit=#p71078, it looks like there is some limited re-usability of the bags.

Norma may also have an input on this since, upon the advice given to her by Tom at the PMQTT some time ago (see the PMQTT thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit=#p50582), she has been using bags at market.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2013, 10:31:12 AM »
Derrick,

Norma may also have an input on this since, upon the advice given to her by Tom at the PMQTT some time ago (see the PMQTT thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit=#p50582), she has been using bags at market.

Peter

Derrick,

From what Peter posted, I do use plastic bags for all of my dough balls at market at the advice of Tom Lehmann.  The plastic bag method works very well for me in that I can't store dough balls other ways in my limited refrigeration units at market.  If you want some links to show what my dough balls look like in the plastic bags, I can give you those links.  I don't know if the plastic bags should be used for two consecutive weeks, but that is what I do.  I put the bags back into the refrigeration and reuse them a second week.  The plastic bags I use are purchased at the WEBstaurant store and are these (6x3x12) for a 1000 plastic bags.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/plastic-food-bag-6x3x12-1000-bx/1306312%20%20%20%20%201M.html  You might be able to use smaller plastic bags than I use if you decide to try plastic bags.  I don't have any problems with the plastic bag method.

Norma
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Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2013, 02:29:45 PM »
Thank all for the great advice!  We're making 70 dough balls Wednesday for preparation on Sat, so while I'm not sure if I can get my hands on the bags fast enough, I definitely want to give them a try.

Norma, do you mind sharing links of the pics?  I'll be curious to see what they look like.  How much dough do you use per bag?


Offline norma427

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2013, 02:59:38 PM »
Thank all for the great advice!  We're making 70 dough balls Wednesday for preparation on Sat, so while I'm not sure if I can get my hands on the bags fast enough, I definitely want to give them a try.

Norma, do you mind sharing links of the pics?  I'll be curious to see what they look like.  How much dough do you use per bag?

Derrick,

At Reply 1697 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg252613.html#msg252613 I showed some dough balls in the plastic bags.  Those dough balls weighed 1.024 lbs.  I also showed some other photos of the dough balls in the plastic bags at Reply 1649 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg244849.html#msg244849

These were some leftover dough balls from when I went to an Arts and Craft show at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15292.msg151764.html#msg151764  Those dough balls were stored in a Coleman cooler with ice outside.  They were smaller dough balls, but I can not recall the weight of them.

These are a higher hydration dough (75%) stored in plastic bags at Reply 1439 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg236901.html#msg236901  Those dough balls weigh 9.5 ounces.  I only stored those dough balls in plastic bags because I don't have enough steel pans to store the dough balls in.

These are some preferment Lehmann dough balls at Reply 881 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg146107.html#msg146107   If you look at my next post, you can see they did overferment. 

I could find you more links of where my dough balls are stored in plastic bags, but I think you will get the idea of what I do from the above links.

Norma
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Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 09:56:07 AM »
Great pictures!  Thank you for the references!

Since my doughs seem to have been overfermenting a lot lately, what do you do when they overferment? Do you just dump out the dough and work it into a circle?  Or do you end up reballing and giving it some time for the gluten to relax again?

Thanks!

Offline norma427

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 07:16:26 PM »
Great pictures!  Thank you for the references!

Since my doughs seem to have been overfermenting a lot lately, what do you do when they overferment? Do you just dump out the dough and work it into a circle?  Or do you end up reballing and giving it some time for the gluten to relax again?

Thanks!

Derrick,

I would try a little less yeast if you dough seems to be overfermenting too much lately first.  I have learned to work with overfermented dough balls if that happens by either too high of a final dough temperature, the dough sitting out too long to warm-up, or if something happens to my fridges.  I just dip the dough ball in flour on both sides and make sure I haven't used too much flour and then just open the dough balls normally.  I haven't had many problems when opening dough balls that are overfermented unless they are high hydration doughs.  If the doughs are high hydration doughs, then I make sure I use enough rice flour on the peel so the skin doesn't want to stick after dressing the pizza.

I really don't have time to do reballs at market because there are too many other things that need to be done and I sure don't want to time them so the doughs open as easily as they can.  Different members here on the forum do reballs with good results, but I haven't tried that very much, unless it was an experiment.


Norma
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 07:02:46 AM by norma427 »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 07:08:18 AM »
Derrick,

I forgot to mention in my last post, but I checked at market yesterday and the size of the plastic bags I used now is 8x2x12.  Sorry I posted wrong before. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/plastic-food-bag-4x2x12-1000-bx/1304212%20%20%20%20%201M.html

Norma
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Offline derricktung

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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 09:54:45 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for the heads up!  I'm going to swing by RD today to pick up ingredients for my next market, and will take a look to see if they sell bread bags as well.  The kind folks at Sams club gave me one bag to play with, so we'll be fermenting one today at ambient temperature within the bag to see how cleanly it comes out.

I've asked my sanitarian on reuse of bread bags, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say.


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Re: Soupy dough?!
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 10:17:45 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for the heads up!  I'm going to swing by RD today to pick up ingredients for my next market, and will take a look to see if they sell bread bags as well.  The kind folks at Sams club gave me one bag to play with, so we'll be fermenting one today at ambient temperature within the bag to see how cleanly it comes out.

I've asked my sanitarian on reuse of bread bags, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say.

Derrick,

I made another mistake in my last post.  I looked again while I was at market today and the bags I use are 8"x4"x12".  Will be interested to see what you think of using bread bags when fermenting your dough balls.  I will also be interested in hearing what you inspector has to say about the reuse of the bread bags.

Norma
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