Author Topic: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan  (Read 1033 times)

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Offline JEP

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flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« on: May 29, 2013, 11:26:00 AM »
By quasi-Neopolitan I am referring to a pizza that bakes a little longer (2-3 minutes) at 600-700 degrees and finishes with a slightly crispier result than a traditional Neopolitan. 

In my experience, I would say that "00" flour doesn't perform poorly below 800 degrees, but definitely excels above it. 

I am looking for suggestions on a particular type of flour that one might believe would perform better than "00" under the baking conditions I described above. 

Jimmy 


Online TXCraig1

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2013, 12:56:45 PM »
KAAP always worked well for me when I was baking in my BBQ at 750F or so (2:15ish bake time).
Pizza is not bread.

Online scott123

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2013, 01:02:53 PM »
Jimmy, while you'll find different opinions on what constitutes a Neapolitan bake time, I think you'll find a good number of people who believe that 2 minutes just qualifies.  3 does not.  3 is solidly Neo-NY, and Neo-NY is generally not that crispy. It depends on the oven environment and dough formula, but crispiness is closer to 4 minutes.

The ideal flour for NY is bromated bleached 12.7%-13.2% protein bread flour. If you're willing to sacrifice most crispiness at 3 minutes and truly want to be 'neo-ny,' then you might want to blend the caputo with bromated, but I personally feel pretty strongly that both a 90 second NP and a 4 minute NY are inherently better pies than the middle ground that lies between them.

Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2013, 05:12:10 PM »
Interesting suggestion that bromated and stronger flours are conducive to "crispiness". I would associate them more with a "crunchy" result. In my experience, lower protein flours lend more to "crispiness" providing a suitable bake time is used.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2013, 05:40:02 PM »
Jimmy, while you'll find different opinions on what constitutes a Neapolitan bake time, I think you'll find a good number of people who believe that 2 minutes just qualifies.  3 does not.  3 is solidly Neo-NY, and Neo-NY is generally not that crispy. It depends on the oven environment and dough formula, but crispiness is closer to 4 minutes.

The ideal flour for NY is bromated bleached 12.7%-13.2% protein bread flour. If you're willing to sacrifice most crispiness at 3 minutes and truly want to be 'neo-ny,' then you might want to blend the caputo with bromated, but I personally feel pretty strongly that both a 90 second NP and a 4 minute NY are inherently better pies than the middle ground that lies between them.

Scott, when you say a blend, are you thinking 50/50?
Chaz

Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 05:42:31 PM »
Doesn't Di Fara use a blend of Caputo and All Trumps? probably not a 3 minute bake time though so not sure how useful the reference is. :-/

Online scott123

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 05:42:49 PM »
Interesting suggestion that bromated and stronger flours are conducive to "crispiness".

I didn't say that  ;) Stronger flours tend to absorb more water, which, in turn makes them less crispy, but the range of flours I discussed didn't included any stronger flours. 12.5% (for the 00) and 12.7.-13.2% is all in the same medium high gluten ballpark. The flour I'm recommending is based on the inclusion of malt (and the enzyme derived tenderizing it provides) rather than recommending more or less protein.

Protein is a small player in the crispy game (especially for the protein range we're discussing), but it's inconsequential compared to bake time, oven environment and formula.

Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2013, 05:45:41 PM »
I didn't say that  ;) Stronger flours tend to absorb more water, which, in turn makes them less crispy, but the range of flours I discussed didn't included any stronger flours. 12.5% (for the 00) and 12.7.-13.2% is all in the same medium high gluten ballpark. The flour I'm recommending is based on the inclusion of malt (and the enzyme derived tenderizing it provides) rather than recommending more or less protein.

Protein is a small player in the crispy game (especially so when you move up to 14% protein), but it's inconsequential compared to bake time, oven environment and formula.

Ah I've gone down as little as 10-11% protein and got some crispy results. Unmalted flours, though, so maybe that's the factor I was witnessing in play.

Online scott123

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2013, 05:58:56 PM »
While I have quality concerns with 14% flour in some settings, when you get down to 10%, I'm not even sure I'd still consider that pizza. For me 10% is encroaching on tortilla territory  :) At least, I've never seen a good extensible, stretchable 10% protein dough that had great oven spring when baked.

Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
While I have quality concerns with 14% flour in some settings, when you get down to 10%, I'm not even sure I'd still consider that pizza. For me 10% is encroaching on tortilla territory  :) At least, I've never seen a good extensible, stretchable 10% protein dough that had great oven spring when baked.
Tortilla eh? You do realise that most baguettes are made with 10%ish protein flours and I'd be hard pushed to call those anything less than extensible, stretchable doughs?


Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2013, 06:12:27 PM »
Tom Lehmann has written an article about using lower protein flours in pizza dough. His suggestion of 12-13% coincides with your figures Scott although he points out going lower can still give a pretty decent result.
http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/flour-protein

On the subject of crispiness he concludes:
Quote
So it is not ideal to use a high-protein flour in hopes of achieving a crispy characteristic in the finished crust. That elusive crispiness might be more easily had through careful attention to the dough forming and baking process.


Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2013, 07:03:11 PM »
@JEP
When you say quasi-neapolitan, do you still want to retain a relatively puffy crust and tender crumb?
FWIW I've found supermarket brand AP flours to be perfectly acceptable in making sub-neapolitan temp pies. Just not sure they'd measure up to your requirements.

Online scott123

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2013, 07:37:27 PM »
Tortilla eh? You do realise that most baguettes are made with 10%ish protein flours and I'd be hard pushed to call those anything less than extensible, stretchable doughs?

Alright, I'll concede that baguettes can be pretty extensible, but you're still talking bread and not pizza.

There's a historical connection between AP and pizza, but AP is still higher than 10%- at least Northeastern AP, where the connection existed, was/is.

Could 10% protein be the secret to crispy 3 minute bakes?  Outside of yourself, I know of no one that's tried it, so I can't say, with absolute certainty that it couldn't be, but it certainly bears no resemblance to what's used commercially for pizza.

Online scott123

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2013, 07:40:46 PM »
Scott, when you say a blend, are you thinking 50/50?

Chaz, as you probably read, it's not something I heartily recommend, but, if someone were considering between a 2 and 4 minute bake, yes, one could blend it 50/50.  It's an oversimplification, but a 50/50 blend basically cuts the sugar producing/protein slicing enzymes from the malt in half.

Vesta, in East Rutherford, uses some kind of blend, and I love his pies, but I think he's closer to 4 minutes.

Mal

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 07:41:57 PM »
Alright, I'll concede that baguettes can be pretty extensible, but you're still talking bread and not pizza.
Actually talking about dough.

Quote
There's a historical connection between AP and pizza, but AP is still higher than 10%- at least Northeastern AP, where the connection existed, was/is.

Could 10% protein be the secret to crispy 3 minute bakes?  Outside of yourself, I know of no one that's tried it, so I can't say, with absolute certainty that it couldn't be, but it certainly bears no resemblance to what's used commercially for pizza.

I wasn't suggesting 10% was the key anymore than "12.7-13.2" (kinda precise...is there something wrong with 12.6? :D ) I do think there is a correlation between lowering protein down from >14% to the 12-13 that you were suggesting or maybe even lower and crispiness. It may be not a major one but it's all worth investigating if nothing else. Still that's a topic for another day since it's closer to the NY side of things.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 07:57:39 PM by Mal »

Offline JEP

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2013, 11:15:57 PM »
@JEP
When you say quasi-neapolitan, do you still want to retain a relatively puffy crust and tender crumb?
FWIW I've found supermarket brand AP flours to be perfectly acceptable in making sub-neapolitan temp pies. Just not sure they'd measure up to your requirements.

Yes. 

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: flour type for a quasi-Neopolitan
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2013, 11:19:17 PM »
While I have quality concerns with 14% flour in some settings, when you get down to 10%, I'm not even sure I'd still consider that pizza. For me 10% is encroaching on tortilla territory  :)
LMFAO, just my $.02, though.
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