Author Topic: In need of help with the bake...  (Read 1283 times)

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Offline Camaro10

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In need of help with the bake...
« on: June 02, 2013, 08:29:16 PM »
Hi all, I have been making pies now for about a month and I really fell in love with it. The website really is a wonderful resource with a lot of great and kind people. So here is my problem, I am making NY style pies 16" to be exact and am baking on a screen. I have a whirpool oven and am using the second rack up from the lowest slot. I set the oven to 475-500F and allow about 30 min of preheat. I havent yet actually measured the temp of the oven, I just go by the display and wait until it reaches 471-500 for a few minutes.

My formula is

All trumps 100%
Water 62%
Salt 2%
IDY .5%

Mixed with KA
Cold ferment varies from 12-48 hrs
set a room temp for 30 min



When I bake I never get that crispy crust that I hope for and I believe I am taking the pie out prematurely in fear of burning the cheese and toppings. It makes me nervous to see the cheese begin to "boil". My crust never has a golden brown look and I know I can add sugar but that still wont help with the crunch or crispiness. As you notice in one of the picture the slice flops over pretty easily. I am baking for an estimation of 10 min.

Another question I have is burning the cheese. I am using low moisture part skim motz (italiano surpremo I believe). Like I stated before when I see the cheese begin to bubble it making me nervous. How do I know the cheese is burning? Should I go strictly off of its color?

Should I use a higher temp? My oven goes up to 525.
Should I place the rack on the lowest setting?

Right now I currently do not have a stone or steel.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:32:11 PM by Camaro10 »


Offline mkevenson

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2013, 09:40:18 PM »
Welcome, my recommendations, get a stone, heat for 1 hr at max oven temp, your stone should get hotter than your oven max temp, if you have a top broiler in the main oven place your stone about 6-8 inches below the broiler , bake until bottom of pie is about 3/4 done then turn on broiler, if it won't fire open oven door a crack till it lights. Cook till done. You also can try lowering your hydration to 58-60%. If that  doesn't work try another suggestion. You should get several here.

Good luck.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2013, 09:48:44 PM »
Hi all, I have been making pies now for about a month and I really fell in love with it. The website really is a wonderful resource with a lot of great and kind people. So here is my problem, I am making NY style pies 16" to be exact and am baking on a screen. I have a whirpool oven and am using the second rack up from the lowest slot. I set the oven to 475-500F and allow about 30 min of preheat. I havent yet actually measured the temp of the oven, I just go by the display and wait until it reaches 471-500 for a few minutes.

My formula is

All trumps 100%
Water 62%
Salt 2%
IDY .5%

Mixed with KA
Cold ferment varies from 12-48 hrs
set a room temp for 30 min



When I bake I never get that crispy crust that I hope for and I believe I am taking the pie out prematurely in fear of burning the cheese and toppings. It makes me nervous to see the cheese begin to "boil". My crust never has a golden brown look and I know I can add sugar but that still wont help with the crunch or crispiness. As you notice in one of the picture the slice flops over pretty easily. I am baking for an estimation of 10 min.

Another question I have is burning the cheese. I am using low moisture part skim motz (italiano surpremo I believe). Like I stated before when I see the cheese begin to bubble it making me nervous. How do I know the cheese is burning? Should I go strictly off of its color?

Should I use a higher temp? My oven goes up to 525.
Should I place the rack on the lowest setting?

Right now I currently do not have a stone or steel.
Interesting that you seem unsure of the brand of cheese you are working with..
Anyway, the cheese is supposed to "boil" so you're OK there.  lm/ps cheese will brown quicker than whole milk...get some whole milk and turn the oven up all the way.
Oh, an try baking on bottom rack.

"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Tannerwooden

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 02:39:37 AM »
I agree with Mkevenson. Get a stone, or a steel. You don't have enough heat just sitting in the oven to really cook the pizza. A stone or steel will help you harness the heat you have and truly get something remarkable.

Don't get a cheap, thin stone either. You need something that will actually hold a lot of heat to bake your pizza with.

Offline patnx2

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 01:48:26 AM »
That's a good looking pie. I think stone is essential. More heat and pre heat longer. I would also do a bit longer time in frig. Your pie looks great for baking such a short time. Practice will bring success and good pies. Patrick
Patrick

Offline Camaro10

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 06:29:14 PM »
Made a pie last night using the same formula, this time I place the rack on the bottom slot and cranked that baby to 525 for 45 min before placing the pie in. Came out great crispy and golden brown. Still used the screen. I am in the market for a stone for my calzones and strombolis. Can somebody point me to a good supplier or website.

Offline Camaro10

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 06:20:53 PM »
This is on the screen as well. Finally figured out the technique needed.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 06:33:06 PM »
This is a good one   http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/baking-and-pizza-stone/  served me well for many years. They are expensive, but when I bought mine they came with a lifetime warranty. If it ever cracks they say they will replace it. Not sure if they still make that claim or not, check to be sure. Old Stone is another one with a good reputation, and I actually think that the Williams-Sonoma is made by Old Stone.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Offline scott123

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 09:38:40 PM »
Camaro10, these are the same material as commercial bake stones and are less expensive, thicker (better) and have a larger surface area than typical commercial stones, allowing for larger pizzas

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-16x16x34square.aspx
http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx

If you're happy with crispy pizza and feel that you'll always lean in that direction, then a cordierite stone (such as these) is probably a good fit for you, but, if you think you ever might want to try something a bit softer/puffier, then I recommend 1/2" steel.  The advantage of steel is that, when the temperature is turned down a bit, it can match the results of any baking stone, but, when you turn the heat up and use the broiler, you can get even faster bake times. Some of the members of the forum feel these faster bakes are pretty spectacular (but the results are generally not too terribly crispy).


Online Pete-zza

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 10:49:52 AM »
Camaro10,

As you have gathered from the posts of the other members, using a pizza stone or a baking steel is the best way to go for a New York style. However, I wouldn't throw away your pizza screen. As summer temperatures rise and discourage one from heating up the oven for prolonged times, a pizza screen comes in handy. I have used pizza screens in the summer in my standard builder's grade Whirlpool oven and learned over time how to best use that oven with pizza screens. I described some of the various methods I have used, and by others as well, at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg20965.html#msg20965. The last paragraph of that post discusses using the pizza screen alone, with or without the broiler. Other parts of that post discuss using a pizza screen in conjunction with a pizza stone where the desired pizza size is greater than the pizza stone can accommodate. So, when getting a pizza stone, or a baking steel, you will want to get the largest size your oven can handle while allowing the oven door to fully close. For the NY style, ideally one would want to go to 18" as a pizza size but not all ovens can handle that size. So, you might want to make a mock cardboard template to see what maximum size pizza you can make in your oven while allowing the oven door to fully close.

Peter

Offline Camaro10

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 03:08:19 PM »
Thanks guys I think I will get the stone your referred me to Scott. Now I need a peel. Since I was using a screen before I would Just put the stretchs dough directly on the screen. Any recommendations on a good peel? Not to expensive. What are the pros and cons of the metal peels? Thanks

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 06:03:27 PM »
If you only have one, make it wood. Metal, especially solid metal (without holes) can be tricky to work with. I like wood for delivery of the pie, and a thinner metal peel for pie extraction.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 06:08:13 PM »
Wow Scott123, that's a great price on the corderite, I filed that away for future referrence. 18" x18" is hard to find and exactly what is needed for "true" NY style!

Online caymus

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 06:17:33 PM »
Camaro10

For peels, I would check a local Restaurant Equipment Supply House.  Unlike food distributors, they are almost always open to the public.  They usually have many different lengths and types

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 06:27:53 PM »
Let me just add, for home use in a home setting, there isn't any real need for particularly long handled peels, often the long handle just gets in the way and can be a pain to store. Just a thought!

Offline scott123

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 07:48:18 PM »
Wow Scott123, that's a great price on the corderite, I filed that away for future referrence. 18" x18" is hard to find and exactly what is needed for "true" NY style!

Well, Dave, it really depends on how you define "true" NY style. For me, it's 18 x 18 x 1/2" steel (cut into two pieces for better manageability), pre-heated to 550, positioned about 5-6" from the broiler, and used to bake bromated 13% protein flour pizza 4-5 minutes with the broiler turned on for about half of that time. For me, that's a little 'truer' than the typical 7+ minutes cordierite can usually do, but, then, personally, I feel that the improved oven spring from a faster bake is a bit more important than a crispy/golden brown crust.

I do understand where you're coming from, though :)

Offline scott123

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 11:29:37 PM »
If you only have one, make it wood. Metal, especially solid metal (without holes) can be tricky to work with. I like wood for delivery of the pie, and a thinner metal peel for pie extraction.

This  ^^^

Camaro, wood for launch and metal for retrieval is the only way to go.  Dough slides off wood easier, and metal, unlike wood, won't absorb oil when boilovers and bottom tears occur.  In addition, metal's thinner profile makes it easier to get under the pizza to use as a turning peel.

The head of a peel is called the 'blade'- and for good reason.  You want a sharp blade.  The handle should be pretty thin to start and then you want a gradual taper to a very thin point.  Too many peels are thick boards with points cut into the edges- no good.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:31:37 PM by scott123 »

Offline Camaro10

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2013, 01:30:38 PM »
Where should the stone be in the oven? Which rack?

Offline Camaro10

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Re: In need of help with the bake...
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 03:53:14 PM »
Camaro10, these are the same material as commercial bake stones and are less expensive, thicker (better) and have a larger surface area than typical commercial stones, allowing for larger pizzas

http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-16x16x34square.aspx
http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx

If you're happy with crispy pizza and feel that you'll always lean in that direction, then a cordierite stone (such as these) is probably a good fit for you, but, if you think you ever might want to try something a bit softer/puffier, then I recommend 1/2" steel.  The advantage of steel is that, when the temperature is turned down a bit, it can match the results of any baking stone, but, when you turn the heat up and use the broiler, you can get even faster bake times. Some of the members of the forum feel these faster bakes are pretty spectacular (but the results are generally not too terribly crispy).




I just ordered the 18x18, turns out the factory is 15 min from my house so I'm going to pick it up my next day off. Ill let them know I'm using it to make pizza lol. Thanks Scott.