Author Topic: Papa Johns cheesesticks  (Read 14351 times)

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2013, 02:39:19 PM »
Round 2 using Peter's new dough formulation.  Success.  Bake time was about 8 minutes.  3.6-4oz of cheese and whole cup of garlic sauce.  I didn't even notice until now that Peter dropped the oil down to 5.5%.  I didn't notice any taste dropoff at all.  Mine look better than Papa's I think.

Nate
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 02:51:17 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2013, 02:56:48 PM »
"Don't mess with my cheese stix man!"
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2013, 03:41:48 PM »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 03:58:20 PM »
Round 2 using Peter's new dough formulation.  Success.  Bake time was about 8 minutes.  3.6-4oz of cheese and whole cup of garlic sauce.  I didn't even notice until now that Peter dropped the oil down to 5.5%.  I didn't notice any taste dropoff at all.  Mine look better than Papa's I think.
Nate,

Maybe I misinterpreted what c0mpl3x (Jon) meant when he said in Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258240.html#msg258240 that "a quart squirt bottle would last about 22 cheese sticks". I did not interpret his comment to mean 14 individual Cheesesticks but rather 22 12" pizzas that are cut into 14 Cheesesticks each. That would mean just a modest amount of the Garlic sauce on each pizza. As I understand it, little tubs of sauces, including the Garlic sauce, are added on the side to the order of Cheesesticks.

With all the cheese and sauce that you used, they would bury just about all of the other flavors of the Cheesesticks, to the point that you would not miss the reduced amount of oil. You might also note that I increased the amount of sugar. However, the two changes perhaps have an offsetting effect in terms of the softness and texture of the finished crust.

Peter


Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 04:09:30 PM »
Nate,

Maybe I misinterpreted what c0mpl3x (Jon) meant when he said in Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258240.html#msg258240 that "a quart squirt bottle would last about 22 cheese sticks". I did not interpret his comment to mean 14 individual Cheesesticks but rather 22 12" pizzas that are cut into 14 Cheesesticks each. That would mean just a modest amount of the Garlic sauce on each pizza. As I understand it, little tubs of sauces, including the Garlic sauce, are added on the side to the order of Cheesesticks.

With all the cheese and sauce that you used, they would bury just about all of the other flavors of the Cheesesticks, to the point that you would not miss the reduced amount of oil. You might also note that I increased the amount of sugar. However, the two changes perhaps have an offsetting effect in terms of the softness and texture of the finished crust.

Peter


Peter,

These tasted fabulous.  On my previous attempt i didnt use enough garlic sauce as shown in that YouTube vid and the flavor was definitely off.  This is the closest clone of any restaurant food I have ever made.  The only thing left to experiment with is longer ferments.

Nate


« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 04:19:55 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2013, 04:33:23 PM »
Nate,

For clarification purposes, when you said that you used a whole cup of Garlic sauce did you mean one of the small tubs of that sauce?

By any chance, did you weight the baked pizza before cutting into the individual Cheesesticks?

The latest numbers for the dough formulation reflect my efforts to reverse engineer the basic PJ breadstick dough from the PJ Nutrition Facts and the updated information on the PJ pizza dough.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2013, 08:57:44 PM »
Nate,

For clarification purposes, when you said that you used a whole cup of Garlic sauce did you mean one of the small tubs of that sauce?

By any chance, did you weight the baked pizza before cutting into the individual Cheesesticks?

The latest numbers for the dough formulation reflect my efforts to reverse engineer the basic PJ breadstick dough from the PJ Nutrition Facts and the updated information on the PJ pizza dough.

Peter

Peter,

I just used one of their dipping sauces.  2oz I believe.  No final weights, sorry.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2013, 11:06:56 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59232.html#msg59232


Ahh I was wondering why it was a milky yellow color (softed margarine w/vegetable oil added).  Before it used to look like melted butter but they changed this recipe some 5-7yrs ago.  I will give this a shot tomorrow.

Nate
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2013, 07:43:20 AM »
Nate,

As I mentioned earlier in Reply 19 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258277.html#msg258277), one of the little PJ Garlic sauce tubs contains 1 ounce (28 grams) of sauce, not two ounces.

When I researched the PJ's garlic sauce some time ago, and again more recently, I read that PJs did at one time make a garlic sauce with butter. Apparently that version had to be refrigerated whereas the current version with its preservatives apparently can be held at room temperature for several hours. That makes for a more efficient operation since that eliminaltes trips to the refrigerator/cooler after each pizza is made and about to be boxed. 

I also saw several clone/copycat recipes for the PJ garlic sauce. Some include only butter and garlic powder or crushed fresh garlic which, surprisingly some people do not like (apparently the sauce is too liquid like and messy to spread on the skin), but most that seem to prefer the current PJ version with more "body" to it tend to use a margarine in a soft form (or in a harder form but microwaved to soften) and garlic in some form, but mostly dry garlic. Some also add a bit of salt even though margarines already contain salt. I think I would attempt the PJ Garlic sauce clone in the link that I provided to Camaro10 earlier in this thread at Reply 27 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258366.html#msg258366). There is much more challenge and fun in my opinion in replicating the current PJ Garlic sauce as opposed to just using butter and garlic even if the latter may be better for you from a nutrition standpoint.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2013, 12:39:18 PM »
Peter,

I tried making the garlic sauce two ways.  One with more margarine vs oil and the 2nd with more oil vs margarine.  The taste is very different to papa johns as is as the color.  Papa's is yellow, mine is white with very little yellow in it.  Any ideas?  Margarines also differ alot by taste.  I went with imperial for this test.  It may just be better to drop the 75 cents for the sauce cuz because that is a very important part of these cheese sticks.

Nate
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2013, 01:19:39 PM »
try grandioso garlic sauce ;)
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2013, 02:23:21 PM »
try grandioso garlic sauce ;)

Not in grocery store right?  Is this their supplier?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 03:25:34 PM by pythonic »
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2013, 04:03:54 PM »
Not in grocery store right?  Is this their supplier?

very close to PJ, melt in a stick of brand name margarine 1:1 with it.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2013, 04:32:16 PM »
very close to PJ, melt in a stick of brand name margarine 1:1 with it.
???
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2013, 04:50:06 PM »
I tried making the garlic sauce two ways.  One with more margarine vs oil and the 2nd with more oil vs margarine.  The taste is very different to papa johns as is as the color.  Papa's is yellow, mine is white with very little yellow in it.  Any ideas?  Margarines also differ alot by taste.  I went with imperial for this test.  It may just be better to drop the 75 cents for the sauce cuz because that is a very important part of these cheese sticks.
Nate,

As best I can tell, the base for the PJ Garlic sauce is a commodity-type product to which garlic and "natural garlic flavor" are added. For example, if you compare the PJ Nutrition Facts for the PJ Garlic sauce as given at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/5/subMenu.html with a generic "Margarine, margarine-like vegetable oil spread, 60% fat, tub" as given at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/7190/2, you will see that the Nutrition Facts are almost identical. The generic margarine product has a bit less sodium/salt but the differences are so small as not to be noticeable on the palate.

I tried to find some retail brand margarine products that seem to come closest to the Garlic sauce as described at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59232.html#msg59232 but leaving out the garlic ingredients. Doing this, we are left with the following:

Liquid and Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Water, Salt, Vegetable Mono & Diglycerides, Soy Lecithin, Artificial Flavor [butter], Sodium Benzoate (a preservative), Lactic Acid, Calcium Disodium EDTA added to protect flavor, Beta Carotene (Color).

A couple of retail products that contain most of the above ingredients are the Land O Lakes stick margarine at http://www.landolakes.com/product/14000/margarine---sticks and a Parkay stick margarine product at described at http://www.walmart.com/ip/Parkay-Sticks-65-Vegetable-Oil-Spread-16-oz/10291481. No doubt there are others but if you double the Nutrition Facts numbers for these two products, you will find that the numbers are close to the PJ Nutrition Facts for the PJ Garlic sauce. The two products, however, contain buttermilk or whey, which are milk products. The PJ Garlic sauce does not contain those ingredients. Otherwise, but for the garlic ingredients, the ingredients in the Land O Lakes and Parkay products are quite close to the PJ Garlic sauce.

You might want to print out the ingredients list highlighted above to take to your local supermarket and see if there are any retail margarine products, either stick or tub, that are similar to the above ingredients list. I will try to do the same at my local supermarket.

In the meantime, maybe you can try to identify a source for the Grandioso product that Jon mentioned, or maybe he can can tell us where he gets it. I do not recall seeing that product anywhere but I will look to see if is sold at my local supermarket.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:41:25 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2013, 04:58:06 PM »

I really don't know, but think the Grandioso Garlic Dipping Sauce is a foodservice product.

http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/187063/Ventura-Foods-Grandioso-Garlic-Dipping-Sauce-1.25-Ounce.htm 

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2013, 06:38:58 PM »
Nate,

After my last post, I visited two local supermarkets where I checked out about 25 different stick and tub margarine products. One of those products was the Imperial margarine, in stick form, but since it included palm oil and palm kernel oil, I concluded that that product would not be a good candidate for a clone PJ Garlic sauce.

Of the additional margarine products, I did not find any that were as close to the base margarine content of the PJ Garlic sauce than the Parkay stick margarine product that I referenced earlier. I think that that product is closer to the base margarine content of the PJ Garlic sauce than the Land of Lake product. The Parkay product is a 65% spread whereas the Land O Lake product is an 80% spread.

When I did not find a tub product that met the Nutrition Facts I was looking for, as well as the closest set of ingredients, when I got back home I looked for a 60% stick margarine product at the SelfNutritionData website. I found this: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/7189/2. As you will note, the Nutrition Facts for a 60% stick spread are close to the Nutrition Facts for the margarine base for the PJ Garlic sauce but for the inclusion of trans fat, which is also present in the generic 60% tub spread referenced earlier.

So, I think the closest you are going to come to a margarine product to test for a PJ Garlic sauce clone by adding your own garlic and garlic flavor (such as garlic powder) is a 60% spread, in either tub or stick form.

You might also look at house brands. I found one house brand that looked good as a candidate but it was only a 52% spread. Additional soybean oil would have to be added to that product to boost it to 60%. I should add that all of the margarine products I looked at noted the percent numbers on the packaging. So, you don't have to do any calculations.

As I expected, I did not find any Grandioso products. Before leaving home, I did a search but found only the garlic sauce product that Norma found. That product seemed to be a garlic sauce product rather than a seasoning to add to margarine to make a garlic sauce.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 06:54:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2013, 07:28:18 PM »
Lots of calories tonight :). Boxed em up and they look legit.  I'd drop $7 for them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:33:09 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2013, 09:56:45 PM »
Beauty full !  :drool:
That box is getting a bit tattered though.   :-D
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2013, 09:33:30 AM »
Nate,

Continuing my research on margarine products, another possible candidate for any tests you decide to conduct is the Fleischmann's Original stick margarine, as described, along with the related Nutrition Facts, at http://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=725046&storeId=10052&langId=-1. I had come across the Fleischmann's margarine products before but I had noted that it used corn oil. The Fleischmann's product referenced above does not contain any corn oil. However, you will note that the Fleischmann's product contains whey. Whey is the liquid in milk that is a byproduct of cheese production. Many margarine products contain water as the liquid but some, like Fleischmann's, use whey instead of water. Other producers of margarine products sometimes use a combination of water and whey. The Parkay product referenced earlier at http://www.walmart.com/ip/Parkay-Sticks-65-Vegetable-Oil-Spread-16-oz/10291481 is one such product and contains both water and whey but more water than whey. As a result, as between the Fleischmann's product and the Parkay product, I would go with the Parkay product because it seems to be closer to the base margarine product used to make the PJ Garlic sauce. Also, the Parkay product has a fat content that is closer to the base margarine product used to make the PJ Garlic sauce. The Parkay product is a 65% product whereas the Fleischmann's product appears to be a 70% product.

To the above, I should add that neither of the two products discussed above contains lactic acid (a milk acid), which is an ingredient of the PJ Garlic sauce. However, the Parkay product contains phosphoric acid, which is an acidulant that provides a tangy or sour taste. The phosphoric acid is way down the list of ingredients so it should not provide an overly tangy or sour taste.

And there you have it.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 10:22:13 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2013, 10:20:10 AM »
Thank you Peter for your hard work in researching these margarines.  I will take your advice and play around with it some more.

Nate
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2013, 10:30:15 AM »
Thank you Peter for your hard work in researching these margarines.  I will take your advice and play around with it some more.
Nate,

Reverse engineering something, even something as simple as a garlic sauce, forces you to learn. But the knowledge gained goes into your memory banks and is there to use at some future date if necessary. This project has forced me to learn about the various types and kinds of margarine products and how they are created and how they differ. I am a learning creature. Without learning, I might as well fold up my tent and go home.

Peter

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2013, 02:57:39 PM »
Nate,

Today I added Wal-Mart and Kroger to my list of local supermarkets with many brands of margarine products to look at. Between these two stores, there were about six new margarine products that I hadn't seen in the other two stores, including Wal-Mart and Kroger house brands. As I expected, none of the additional products I examined was a candidate to use to try to clone the PJ Garlic sauce.

I think we have pretty much exhausted the available options among the supermarket brands of margarine blends.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Papa Johns cheesesticks
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2013, 04:46:32 PM »
It appears the best option is to just buy the dipping sauces directly from papa johns.
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