Author Topic: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?  (Read 19570 times)

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scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2013, 06:24:22 PM »
Alveograph numbers:
W= 55.299999

Minneapolis, we have a problem  ;D


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 12:16:30 AM »
Minneapolis, we have a problem  ;D

Zoikkks!

Someone (mmmph :)) is gonna have to let us know how it performs before I buy it based on its "nice" price!

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scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 12:50:46 AM »
After doing a little research, I can only assume it's either a typo or some kind of testing error, as a W of 55, according to this source

http://publications.hgca.com/publications/documents/exports/BCE_Chopin_Alveograph_Guide.pdf

is basically only suitable for animal feed.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 01:46:30 AM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 08:26:21 AM »
I had emailed Joe Kelley this morning and asked him if the W number might have been a typo error.  Joe called me then and told me that really the W number is proprietary internal information for the General Mills Neapolitan Pizza Flour and can't be given out to anyone.  Joe said he doesn't even know the W number for that flour.  Joe told me that he encourages members to just try the new General Mills Neapolitan Pizza Flour and then decide for themselves if they like it.  Joe also told me there is no way the new flour was only suitable for animal feed. 

Norma
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 08:29:37 AM by norma427 »

scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 09:05:13 AM »
Joe called me then and told me that really the W number is proprietary internal information for the General Mills Neapolitan Pizza Flour and can't be given out to anyone.

Boo! Hisssssss!

It's one thing to say "General Mills doesn't provide W numbers," but to give us a number and then tell us that they don't give out numbers?  Bad form.

And why should their W number be proprietary?  Anyone with an alveograph can run the flour through it and get a figure. It's not like the secret ingredients in Coca Cola. If they are trying to bring a flour to the market that's in direct competition to the Italian millers- millers that are completely open (and quite proud) about their W figures, then, if they expect to be competitive, they should not just try to match the Italian flour, but they should match the forthcoming nature and customer service of the Italians as well.

Shame on you, General Mills!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 09:15:52 AM by scott123 »

Offline waltertore

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2013, 09:12:43 AM »
I will have to order a bag and give it a try.  thanks Norma and I look forward to hearing what you think of the product.   Walter
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Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2013, 09:40:56 AM »
Boo! Hisssssss!

It's one thing to say "General Mills doesn't provide W numbers," but to give us a number and then tell us that they don't give out numbers?  Bad form.

And why should their W number be proprietary?  Anyone with an alveograph can run the flour through it and get a figure. It's not like the secret ingredients in Coca Cola. If they are trying to bring a flour to the market that's in direct competition to the Italian millers- millers that are completely open (and quite proud) about their W figures, then, if they expect to be competitive, they should not just try to match the Italian flour, but they should match the forthcoming nature and customer service of the Italians as well.

Shame on you, General Mills!

Scott,

Joe actually got a slap on the hand.  I told Joe I was sorry that it happened.  Joe said that was okay because he told me I could post on this open forum.  Joe really don't understand what the W number is. 

If you look what Peter posted at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545 as he has noted previously elsewhere, the “deformation energy” factor “W” in not a common one in the U.S. Millers use it but retailers who sell flour, such as King Arthur, for example, do not disclose W values in their literature made available to retail buyers.

I think each member should just try the new flour out and then see if they like it if they want to try it.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2013, 09:44:28 AM »
I will have to order a bag and give it a try.  thanks Norma and I look forward to hearing what you think of the product.   Walter


Walter,

I was trying to get my starter active to try the new flour, but for some reason it would bubble, but not fast enough.  I am going to meet Steve (Ev) at market today and he is going to give me some of his starter and I am going to give him some of the new flour to try.  If all goes well until Sunday we both might be trying the new flour out in Steve's WFO.

Norma

scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2013, 10:06:52 AM »
Joe actually got a slap on the hand.  I told Joe I was sorry that it happened.  Joe said that was okay because he told me I could post on this open forum.  Joe really don't understand what the W number is. 

If you look what Peter posted at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545 as he has noted previously elsewhere, the “deformation energy” factor “W” in not a common one in the U.S. Millers use it but retailers who sell flour, such as King Arthur, for example, do not disclose W values in their literature made available to retail buyers.

Norma, I can empathize with Joe's situation, I can see how his intentions were good, and I certainly wouldn't want him to get in trouble, but it still doesn't excuse GMs policy on publishing W numbers.

None of the millers you mentioned who refuse to publish their W numbers are trying to compete with Caputo pizzeria flour.  This style of flour lives or dies on it's W number. For this style, it's like a car manufacturer not publishing engine size.

It's like Forno Bravo taking their lower than Italian quality oven and putting Italian looking tiles on it so that it looks Italian.  The W number is the core value of this flour.  If they're not willing to divulge that, everything else is window dressing.

Could the flour make good pizza? Probably.  But secrecy will never compete with honesty.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2013, 10:19:39 AM »
Norma,

As you know from our many emails and telephone calls to industry participants over the years, many of them have a "When/if in doubt, don't give it out" attitude when it comes to what might be deemed to be proprietary information. That is a natural and understandable attitude to take, especially when the company's representative is ill informed about the matter in question. I just accept it and move on. As you know, in many cases the answers eventually show up in print somewhere or in a video or elsewhere on the Internet.

I agree with scott123 on the W issue since there is nothing particularly secretive about what that number means and now it is used. Knowing that number can be a big help to end users contemplating use of the new GM flour. Maybe over time GM will see the merit of revealing the applicable W number since it is part and parcel of the 00 flours that the new GM flour will be competing with. In my experience, it is the biggest companies that are prone to being overly secretive. I think the reason is that employees of such companies don't want to get into trouble. So they button up their lips.

Peter

scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2013, 10:22:07 AM »
I just thought of something. Doesn't Tom Lehmann have access to an alveograph?   >:D

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2013, 10:27:56 AM »
Peter and Scott,

I understand that knowing the W number would be a big help to anyone that might want to try the new GM flour.

Norma

scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2013, 11:09:03 AM »
Peter and Scott,

I understand that knowing the W number would be a big help to anyone that might want to try the new GM flour.

Norma

Norma, regardless of my consternation with GMs customer service, I think you've done a fantastic job of bringing this flour to the forum's attention and I hope that your experiments with it are a success.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 11:29:51 AM by scott123 »

Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2013, 04:01:25 PM »
Norma, regardless of my consternation with GMs customer service, I think you've done a fantastic job of bringing this flour to the forum's attention and I hope that your experiments with it are a success.

Thanks Scott!  I would not have know about this flour if I wasn't trying to make a tomato pie.  I think it is funny how one thing leads to another sometimes.

Norma

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2013, 04:13:39 PM »
This is what the General Mills Neapolitan flour looks like.  It is milled very fine.  I gave half of the bag to Steve because he makes more Neapolitan pies than I do.

Steve also gave me some of his Ischia starter so I can make some dough balls.

Norma

Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 07:27:14 PM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 09:09:03 PM »
Ingredients of this product; WHEAT FLOUR.

No malted barley...nothing...Cool

Also a Falling Number of 325 sec
Caputo is 340-360 sec


Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »
Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.

The bags says "Ingredients: Wheat Flour"

The website says the same.
http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 09:17:35 PM »
And why should their W number be proprietary? 

I doubt it's proprietary as in it's secret - rather they don't want to publish it because then they would have to meet the spec and that costs money - that is, if they are even capable of doing it.

$14 less, per bag, than Caputo.

You get what you pay for.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 09:19:52 PM »
The bags says "Ingredients: Wheat Flour"

The website says the same.
http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category

OK, then why does the falling number vary by at least 46% vs spec?

You get what you pay for, I guess...
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline waltertore

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 10:27:37 PM »
I don't know much about the science stuff you all are talking about but I can share this about labeling.   I needed to get the  the cookie, bagel, whole wheat pizza dough, nutritionally anaylized before I could sell them to public schools.   there is a new federal wellness law and kids are only allowed so much of protien, fat, sugar, carbs, etc, per week via school meals.  The schools food service dieticians now have menu calculators that plug the lablel  info in to see if it will fit the criteria.  I found a retired Ohio Dept Of Agriculture guy that did that for 35 years.   He wanted to support our program and donated his services.  When we got to our whole wheat pizza dough I gave him the GM fine ground whole wheat flour label info- 100% whole wheat flour.  He told me that wasn't the whole truth and said the big companies like GM get away with murder on labeling while small guys like me get scrutinized to the upth degree before a label is cleared by the Dept of Ag. .  His job was to analyze suspect stuff like this and get them to change the label info.  He did further research and found the flour contained all sorts of other stuff.  So maybe this new flour is in the same boat??  Walter

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/stone-ground-whole-wheat-flour-50-lb/58072000?mct=Flour&ct=specialty&typ=Type
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:40:06 PM by waltertore »
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Offline Serpentelli

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 11:42:57 PM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.

JJ,

Lets give that stuff a try in the oven sometime soon!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:46 AM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.

Mmmph,

I am anxious for you to try the General Mills Neapolitan flour out.  ;D  Nice score in getting a whole bag too!   Both Steve and I thought our doughs were very much the same as when using the Caputo Pizzeria flour.  I know my oven skills weren't the best though and my stretching skills were off.  Steve's oven varied a lot in the hearth temperature and dome temperature too because of all the children and teenagers that wanted to try and make pizzas the day we tried out the new flour.

When are you going to try out that new flour?   >:D

Norma 

Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 09:55:44 AM »
Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.

The other flours (Generally malted flours) on the GM website are published to have falling numbers in the 190-280 range, with only a couple going up to 280.

I'm guessing the rep who gave her the 474 number is mistaken. Caputo is published as 340-360...I can't see GM at 474. Dunno, though.

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Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 09:58:09 AM »

When are you going to try out that new flour?   >:D


It'll be soon in my LBE, sooner for Pizzarium style in my house.

John K (Serpentelli) has invited me back to his place and his beautiful WFO sometime soon, as well.

I'll post up as I bake.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato


 

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