Author Topic: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?  (Read 13378 times)

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Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2013, 07:27:14 PM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2013, 09:09:03 PM »
Ingredients of this product; WHEAT FLOUR.

No malted barley...nothing...Cool

Also a Falling Number of 325 sec
Caputo is 340-360 sec


Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »
Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.

The bags says "Ingredients: Wheat Flour"

The website says the same.
http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2013, 09:17:35 PM »
And why should their W number be proprietary? 

I doubt it's proprietary as in it's secret - rather they don't want to publish it because then they would have to meet the spec and that costs money - that is, if they are even capable of doing it.

$14 less, per bag, than Caputo.

You get what you pay for.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2013, 09:19:52 PM »
The bags says "Ingredients: Wheat Flour"

The website says the same.
http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category

OK, then why does the falling number vary by at least 46% vs spec?

You get what you pay for, I guess...
Pizza is not bread.

Offline waltertore

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2013, 10:27:37 PM »
I don't know much about the science stuff you all are talking about but I can share this about labeling.   I needed to get the  the cookie, bagel, whole wheat pizza dough, nutritionally anaylized before I could sell them to public schools.   there is a new federal wellness law and kids are only allowed so much of protien, fat, sugar, carbs, etc, per week via school meals.  The schools food service dieticians now have menu calculators that plug the lablel  info in to see if it will fit the criteria.  I found a retired Ohio Dept Of Agriculture guy that did that for 35 years.   He wanted to support our program and donated his services.  When we got to our whole wheat pizza dough I gave him the GM fine ground whole wheat flour label info- 100% whole wheat flour.  He told me that wasn't the whole truth and said the big companies like GM get away with murder on labeling while small guys like me get scrutinized to the upth degree before a label is cleared by the Dept of Ag. .  His job was to analyze suspect stuff like this and get them to change the label info.  He did further research and found the flour contained all sorts of other stuff.  So maybe this new flour is in the same boat??  Walter

http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/stone-ground-whole-wheat-flour-50-lb/58072000?mct=Flour&ct=specialty&typ=Type
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 10:40:06 PM by waltertore »

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2013, 11:42:57 PM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.

JJ,

Lets give that stuff a try in the oven sometime soon!

John K
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Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 12:09:46 AM »
Well, my free sample was delivered today... :-D

All divvied up into vacuum sealed bags. Dough to follow.

Mmmph,

I am anxious for you to try the General Mills Neapolitan flour out.  ;D  Nice score in getting a whole bag too!   Both Steve and I thought our doughs were very much the same as when using the Caputo Pizzeria flour.  I know my oven skills weren't the best though and my stretching skills were off.  Steve's oven varied a lot in the hearth temperature and dome temperature too because of all the children and teenagers that wanted to try and make pizzas the day we tried out the new flour.

When are you going to try out that new flour?   >:D

Norma 
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Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2013, 09:55:44 AM »
Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.

The other flours (Generally malted flours) on the GM website are published to have falling numbers in the 190-280 range, with only a couple going up to 280.

I'm guessing the rep who gave her the 474 number is mistaken. Caputo is published as 340-360...I can't see GM at 474. Dunno, though.

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Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2013, 09:58:09 AM »

When are you going to try out that new flour?   >:D


It'll be soon in my LBE, sooner for Pizzarium style in my house.

John K (Serpentelli) has invited me back to his place and his beautiful WFO sometime soon, as well.

I'll post up as I bake.
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato


Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2013, 10:14:18 AM »
Are you sure about no malt? The data they sent Norma said "Falling Number 474 (no malt)" but the published spec is 325. Malted barley brings down the falling number.

Craig,

Joe Kelley did tell me in his next email that that number was wrong.  I really don't know what it is though.


Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2013, 10:16:29 AM »
It'll be soon in my LBE, sooner for Pizzarium style in my house.

John K (Serpentelli) has invited me back to his place and his beautiful WFO sometime soon, as well.

I'll post up as I bake.

Great to hear Mmmph!   ;D  I think if Steve finds time he is also going to try some dough balls for his Airstream WFO tomorrow.

Norma
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scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 12:22:00 PM »
You get what you pay for.

Part of what you're paying for with the Caputo is shipping from Canada (for a considerable percentage of the flour) and shipping to the U.S., both of which have no impact on flour quality.  I'm not necessarily saying it's General Mills, but if an American miller could, rather than ship flour back and forth to Europe (and other parts of the world), just mill North American wheat to Neapolitan standards, it would be comparable to Caputo at a lower price.

American's have a pretty poor history of imitating the Italians.  I mentioned Forno Bravo earlier. Forno Bravo is a relatively small company.  Their lipstick-on-a-pig 'Napolino' oven embarrassment might have been just a matter of no one on their staff knowing any better. General Mills is not Forno Bravo. They have a humongous R&D department.  They should know Caputo like the back of their hand- and their equally numerous and well paid marketing folks should grasp the fact that if the GM Neapolitan flour can't bake up the same way as Caputo, people won't buy it.  At least, in theory, someone should grasp these basic concepts over at GM.  Whether or not this common sense rises high enough to reach the decision makers, we shall see.  As angry as I am at GM for their lack of forthrightness, though, I'm not completely giving up hope on the flour. 

Just like Italian ovens don't possess any special voodoo that makes them the only ovens that can produce great Neapolitan pizza, Italian millers don't have a monopoly on cutting edge milling science.  All it takes is someone to understand how the Neapolitans are milling their wheat and mimic it- and this new product is proof that a pretty big R&D department is at least trying to achieve this goal.

Time will tell.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 02:32:46 PM »
Part of what you're paying for with the Caputo is shipping from Canada (for a considerable percentage of the flour) and shipping to the U.S., both of which have no impact on flour quality.  I'm not necessarily saying it's General Mills, but if an American miller could, rather than ship flour back and forth to Europe (and other parts of the world), just mill North American wheat to Neapolitan standards, it would be comparable to Caputo at a lower price.

I bet you would be surprised how little of the cost of a bag of Caputo is ocean freight. Ocean freight is very inexpensive per pound on densely packable, heavy cargo such as wheat and flour.

Quote
General Mills is not Forno Bravo. They have a humongous R&D department.  They should know Caputo like the back of their hand- and their equally numerous and well paid marketing folks should grasp the fact that if the GM Neapolitan flour can't bake up the same way as Caputo, people won't buy it. 

No, they should know that people who use Caputo probably wonít switch to it. That doesnít mean other pizzerias that donít use Caputo for one reason or another (cost, availability, etc.) wonít buy it. Caputoís share of the total US pizza market is miniscule. How many pizzerias donít use Caputo simply because itís not available? Houston is the fourth largest city in the US, and not a single distributor here carries Caputo Pizzeria. You can get it from Dallas Ė for $45/bagÖ GM has one of the largest foodservice distribution networks in the country. I doubt there is a single broadline foodservice distributor that isnít getting multiple trucks from GM weekly.

Quote
At least, in theory, someone should grasp these basic concepts over at GM.  Whether or not this common sense rises high enough to reach the decision makers, we shall see.  As angry as I am at GM for their lack of forthrightness, though, I'm not completely giving up hope on the flour. 

Enough already with the righteous indignation.   ;)  If you were GM, you probably wouldnít disclose the W to Norma either. If she was the Senior Vice President of R&D at Dominoís or Pappa Johns, then maybe you would in the larger context, but if Iím right about why they donít disclose it, you have zero incentive to discuss it with some random person Ė let alone publish it. My guess is that they can significantly reduce the cost of the flour by loosening up the specs. By doing so, they would greatly expand the wheat that can be used (and they arenít bidding against Caputo for the same wheat).  This and efficient production and distribution are how you meaningfully lower cost Ė not by avoiding ocean freight. If the flour performs and is reasonably consistent, who cares? Why do you need to know the W if they are giving you free flour to try?

Quote
Just like Italian ovens don't possess any special voodoo that makes them the only ovens that can produce great Neapolitan pizza, Italian millers don't have a monopoly on cutting edge milling science.  All it takes is someone to understand how the Neapolitans are milling their wheat and mimic it- and this new product is proof that a pretty big R&D department is at least trying to achieve this goal. 

No, it doesnít prove anything of the sort. It suggests that GM sees a profitable market for the flour, and that doesnít necessarily mean they need to take a single bag of Caputo business. They probably think they will, but I bet that is not the core of the business case for the new flour. If they were trying to mimic the Neapolitans, it would be 00, they would supply the full rheological specifications, and they would be knocking at the door of the AVPN. GM is not here with this flour to pay homage to Neapolitan tradition. GM sees the growing market for wood fired pizza, and they know Caputo (or any other Neapolitan flour for that matter) doesnít now and likely never will have the distribution to be a competitor in most markets. My guess is this is the thought behind the flour. The target is the guy making wood fired pizza with AP not Caputo.

In this end, it probably comes down to marketing. Caputo doesnít even rise to the level of a pimple on GMís butt. How many people are there in the US selling Caputo? Zero? I doubt that Fred at Orlando is making many sales calls. GM has at least one and probably multiple reps in every market. GM runs promotions and pays sales incentives to distributor sales people. GM has rebate programs for customers. Outside of NYC, very few broadline distributors have or need a relationship with Caputo. They all have a relationship with GM, and GM pays them $millions in slotting fees, marketing fees, rebates, and other sheltered income.  GM will get distributor support. Caputo wont. I bet there isn't a single broadline distributor and few specialty distributors outside of NYC and a couple other markets that wouldn't love to stop carrying Caputo if they carry it. Small vendors are just a pain in the rear.

My guess is that there is ample opportunity for this product in areas where Caputo is not available, but where Caputo is available, if the flour can come even close to Caputo, broadline reps will be undercutting the heck of the specialty guys selling Caputo to try to get business they donít currently have. A few may switch, but many wonít even if it is just as good and less expensive. Caputo is a powerful name in some markets. Itís a known quantity. Itís may not be worth risking your reputation over a few bucks/bag of flour. GM knows this. I highly doubt they are basing their success with this product on NYC.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline dhorst

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2013, 03:10:06 PM »
If I had a WFO, I'd be buying the Caputo 55lb. sacks.  I can get them for $28 a bag, from Maine Source in North Syracuse.  I have used the Caputo pizzeria flour before for foccacia that had potatoes in the dough and it was wonderful.  Entirely different application though.

Offline Mmmph

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2013, 08:00:32 PM »
Here's six pizze baked in the Blackstone Pizza oven, using this GM flour;

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg260857.html#msg260857
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Offline Peasant

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2013, 08:36:32 AM »
I'm hoping to get some of this flour in a WFO in a couple weeks.  I'll share what I can then.

Thanks for bringing this product to the forum's attention and for the shared results!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2013, 09:15:46 AM »
Norma;
The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent. This is why you don't see much reference to it in our wheat flour specifications.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline norma427

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2013, 09:34:32 AM »
Norma;
The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent. This is why you don't see much reference to it in our wheat flour specifications.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks for explaining that the ďWĒ factor for flours is arrived though the use of the Alveograph, which is basically a machine that blows a bubble to measure the volume of the dough bubble.  Jeff just posted a link about using compressed air to show how compressed air can make a dough ball with more gluten blow up.  I thought that was neat.  I didn't know the Alveograph was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties, but is not well suited to use with stronger US and Canadian hard wheat varieties.  I now can understand why not much is referenced to the W in our flours in the US.  You are always a source of information.

Norma
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scott123

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Re: General Mills Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour?
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2013, 09:59:12 AM »
The "W" factor for flours is arrived at through the use of the Alveograph which is basically a machine that blows a bubble and measures the volume of the dough bubble. It was designed for use with soft wheat varieties as well as European wheat varieties but it is not well suited to use with the stronger U.S. and Canadian hard wheat varieties as results are not consistent.

Neapolitan flour is a blend of Canadian and European wheat.  If the Alveograph can work successfully on a blend, it should work fine on domestic flour- especially if the protein levels are consistent between the two.

Just because the Alveograph is more commonly used in Europe doesn't mean that it has no use for American millers- or for the American public seeking Italian flour analogs.


 

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