Author Topic: Hard to Handel  (Read 644 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mike.S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Hard to Handel
« on: June 09, 2013, 08:59:51 AM »
Hello.  O.k so here is my problem.  I've been making pizza for about a year.  Needless to say I have a way to go.  When I make dough, no matter what flour I use.  No matter which yeast I use.  With or without oil.  The dough seems to be too spongy.  It sticks to the proofing pan like VELCRO. By the time I get my dough out of the pan it cout be nearly destroyed.  I end up degassing it and distorting it soo much.  I can often save it by reballing it and letting it go for a second rise.  I usually do a 1-2 day cold rise.  I can't give you percentages.  I still have to get that figured out.  But I can give you the weights of the ingredients for the dough in the pictures.  I use Peter Reinharts recipe. 

5- cups of flour
1- teaspoon idy
1- teaspoon sugar
3- teaspoon salt
1-3/4 cups of water.
I use a kitchen aid stand mixer.
For the dough in the picture I actually used fresh yeast.  I'm friendly with my local pizza guy.
So here are the pics.


Offline Mike.S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 09:01:13 AM »
I couldn't seen to get more then one picture to show up.  I'll make a new post.

Offline Mike.S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 09:03:37 AM »
These picture were after I fought the dough loose.  I had to recall it as this was unusable..

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »
Mike,

It might help Tom (or others) if you provide the weights of the ingredients, including the weight of the fresh yeast you used. Also, what type and brand of flour are you using? I think it will also help if you describe in detail how you made the dough and managed it up to the point of using it to make a pizza. I have a suspicion that the problem may reside in the latter aspects of your pizza making, so you might want to provide as much detail as you can on these aspects. Any times and temperatures you used should be part of that description.

Peter

Offline Mike.S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2013, 10:32:06 AM »
Ok I use,

5 cups (23 ounces) KABF
1 teaspoon IDY (or .3 ounces fresh yeast) if I have
1 tablespoon sugar
3 teaspoons kosher salt
1 3/4 cups tap water

I poor the water into the bowl of. Kitchen I'd stand mixer (with dough hook)
I dissolve the yeast and sugar in the water
I add the flour and mix for about 2 to 3 minutes
Then I add the salt and mix for about another 3 minutes.
I let it rest for about 5 minutes then I mix for another 5-7 minutes until I think it looks and feels right.
I then let it rest about 2 minutes and I divide it up, shape it into a ball, rub with olive oil. put it in my dough pan with a lid.  And I go directly into the fridge.  I used to let it sit at room temp for an hour or so.  I got the same result either way.  The next day the dough seems to have risen pretty well.  But when I try to take it out of the pan it's stuck to the bottom bad.  Like Velcro.  Even when the dough is still cold.  It still has no strength.  It falls apart and collapses like a gooey mess. 
So that's exactly what I do.
If I am missing any details please let me know.

Please help!
Mike.
 

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2013, 11:40:45 AM »
Mike,

I did several calculations and have set forth below what your recipe looks like from a baker's percent perspective. I have included two dough formulations, one for cake yeast and one for IDY. Since you did not weigh the water, I used a conversion factor of 8.15 ounces (weight) per cup of water (volume). Also, I assumed that the Kosher salt is the Morton's brand of Kosher salt.

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62.011%):
CY (1.30435%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.20842%):
Sugar (1.83424%):
Total (167.35801%):
652.05 g  |  23 oz | 1.44 lbs
404.34 g  |  14.26 oz | 0.89 lbs
8.51 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs |
14.4 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1091.26 g | 38.49 oz | 2.41 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62.011%):
IDY (0.57909%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.20842%):
Sugar (1.83424%):
Total (166.63275%):
652.05 g  |  23 oz | 1.44 lbs
404.34 g  |  14.26 oz | 0.89 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
14.4 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
11.96 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1086.53 g | 38.33 oz | 2.4 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

In studying the above dough formulations, a few thoughts come to mind.

First, I estimate that the amount of dough you have been making comes to around 2.4 pounds. I don't know what model of KitchenAid stand mixer you are using, but I have an old basic KitchenAid stand mixer and I can't make a decent finished dough in it if I try making 2.4 pounds of dough at one time. The owner's manual says that I should be able to use up to 8 cups of flour (all-purpose) but I wouldn't risk trying that. I mention this point in case your mixer hasn't been doing enough kneading of your dough. In my case, I make multiple dough batches of about a pound each.

Second, at about 1.3% cake yeast and about 0.58% IDY, I would say that those values are somewhat on the high side. If that is in fact so in your case, you might have been getting more fermentation that you need. I think something like 0.75% cake yeast and 0.40% IDY might be values to try the next time. Also, there is no need to prehydrate either the cake yeast or the IDY. They can be added directly to the flour. However, if you choose to prehydrate the yeast, I would not add the tablespoon of sugar to the water in which the yeast is prehydrated. You can add a pinch or so of sugar to the prehydrating water, but the rest of the sugar should be mixed in with the flour or, if you prefer, dissolved in the formula water but without the yeast in the same solution.

Third, with respect to the sticking problem, you might consider using a larger pan or one that is made of plastic or glass. In my case, I also make a small opening in the lids of my storage containers to allow the gases and heat of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation in the storage containers as the dough balls cool down in the refrigerator. To remove a dough ball from one of my storage containers, I simply turn the container upside down and let gravity do the job. If needed, I use a thin bladed plastic spatula to gently pry the dough ball away from the sides of the container. That might even work with your metal storage container provided the bottoms of the dough balls are also coated with oil, not just the exposed top surfaces.

Fourth, you didn't indicate whether or for how long you let the dough balls rest before using. Usually, 1-2 hours is sufficient, but it might be less if the dough balls are highly fermented or the ambient temperature is on the high side.

Finally, you might want to double check the temperature of your refrigerator compartment where the dough balls are held during fermentation. If it is too high, the dough balls will ferment faster than you want.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1866
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2013, 12:25:48 PM »
I think the biggest issue might be the flat metal pans, the pans get as cold as the dough and it causes the doughs to stick. Also the shape makes the dough a disc rather than a ball. Try using rounded plastic contains that you spray with a light mist of the oil of your choice, I think your problem will be solved.

Offline Mike.S

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 08:46:36 AM »
Thanks alot for your help guys.  I think my biggest problem might just be those metal pans.  Mind you the dough actually rose pretty nicely.  It only can to look like a mess after having the heck handeled out of it.  even the first picture in the pan was after i handeled it.  I just wanted to make sure I was not making some famous fatal error.  Im going to make another batch tomorrow.  Taking all advice.  Less yeast and plastic storage containers.  Thanks again! :chef:

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6339
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 08:48:51 AM »
For what it's worth, personally, I use the plastic version of those proofing pans, but the metal pans are pretty much the pan of choice for NY area pizzerias.

Mike, are you always measuring flour and water by weight?

Offline dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1866
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 03:47:36 PM »
@Mike.S, I had another thought, are you trying to remove your doughs by hand? Scott mentioned that the metal pans are popular in pizzaria's, and although most people use plastic in a home setting, metal is the popular choice in professional settings. With either, it is customary to let the dough fall out of the container by itself with the help of gravity, just flip the container over and let the dough fall out onto your work table. Your picture seems to indicate that you are pulling the dough out by hand. If your containers have been lightly oiled, your dough should fall right out of it after it has warmed to a usable temperature.


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10620
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 05:31:21 PM »
Hard to Handel

Maybe your dough doesn't like Baroque music?  :-D
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 10620
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 05:31:40 PM »
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline dhorst

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 643
Re: Hard to Handel
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 07:22:22 PM »
Maybe your dough doesn't like Baroque music?  :-D

Very funny, Craig, I thought that myself, although, I read it as Hansel at first and then wondered where's Gretyl?
For the love of Aleppo chile, ask and you shall receive.


 

pizzapan