Author Topic: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt  (Read 2914 times)

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Offline Battletoads

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Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« on: June 10, 2013, 09:39:06 AM »
This weekend I attempted for the first time the Papa Johns clone by Pete-zza.  I have attached pictures of the dough and finished product.  While it was edible it didn't come close to the flavor or texture of a Papa Johns pizza.  I don't think I am going to attempt this again until I get a different pan.  But it was the standard pizza pan you would get if you just went to Walmart or Kohls and bought a pizza pan.  It does have holes in it by they are small and close together.  Where the outer crust sat on the pan has no holes and I think probably didn't help with how it baked.

I used the 5 day ferment time recipe and used KABF.  This was made in my KA blender.  I added the yeast after everything else was mixed.  My biggest problem I think was how stretchy the dough was.  Is this normal?  I felt it was too stretchy.  I made bread sticks with the other dough ball and had trouble with how much they stretched as I moved them to the pan.  Because it was so stretchy I couldn't really get enough of the dustinator flour blend off of the crust and felt that it had too much on it after it was baked.  Does it just need to be kneaded longer while in the KA with the dough hook?  I also noticed that my dough balls are flatter than Pete-zza's and wondered if this is also a symptom of my problem.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 11:35:40 AM »
Battletoads,

The hardest pizza to try to make in a home setting is a clone of a well known pizza. We usually don't have access to same flours, sauces, cheeses, and toppings, and we don't have the same type of dough making equipment or the same ovens. Also, since I posted the recipe you used, I learned that the dough ball weight for a 14" pizza should be around 20-20.25 ounces. I also believe that one should use a flour with a protein content higher than the KABF. These matters were discussed later in the PJ clone thread.

I have some other comments that might be useful but before offering them up can you tell me what the "KA blender" is? In other words, is it a stand mixer, a food processor, or a blender such as used to pulverize things or make drinks, etc.?

Peter

Offline Battletoads

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the reply.  By KA I meant Kitchen Aid stand mixer.  I used a flat beater and then the dough hook according to the instructions you posted in your first post.  If there is any other information you think will be helpful let me know.

Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 05:18:24 PM »
Thanks for the reply.  By KA I meant Kitchen Aid stand mixer.  I used a flat beater and then the dough hook according to the instructions you posted in your first post.  If there is any other information you think will be helpful let me know.
Battletoads,

I perhaps should have asked you earlier but can you tell me what kind and brand of cheese you used, and in what amount, and also what you used as sauce, and in what amount? Also, can you tell me what kind of oven you are using and how you baked the pizza, including rack position(s) and temperature and time? Apart from using the pizza disk that you mentioned, I am basically trying to determine any other deviations from the instructions I provided.

Peter

Offline Battletoads

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 09:09:28 PM »
Battletoads,

I perhaps should have asked you earlier but can you tell me what kind and brand of cheese you used, and in what amount, and also what you used as sauce, and in what amount? Also, can you tell me what kind of oven you are using and how you baked the pizza, including rack position(s) and temperature and time? Apart from using the pizza disk that you mentioned, I am basically trying to determine any other deviations from the instructions I provided.

Peter

No problem.  I have a normal conventional oven and baked it at 500 degrees on the lowest rack.  I didn't use a stone or anything either.  The sauce is a recipe we have used for years and it is on the sweet side and I don't think all that much different than the clone attempt that is located here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6633.0.html

I used the Costco brand (Kirkland) mozzerella cheese that comes pre-shredded.  I am not sure on the amount as I just eye balled it. I don't feel I used too much though.

I am not too worried about how it baked up as I think with a little tinkering I can probably figure that out on my own.  I know there are so many variables that can play into this that it is probably hard for you to pin point from your side.  I am more curious about how stretchy the dough seemed to be and if that is normal.  I am pretty sure that it would not have been able to withstand the same things the dough went through in the video you posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58196.html#msg58196.

Is it possible that kneading the dough a little longer in the mixer along with a higher gluten flour might solve?  I did make the dough balls separately so if I missed on the amount of flour or water then I would have done it twice as they both seemed the same.

Thanks again for taking the time to help me with this.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 12:05:28 PM »
Battletoads,

Thank you for the additional information.

Before tackling the hydration issue, I’d like to address the matter of the carrier (the perforated disk) that you used to bake your pizza

When I played around with the many clones of the PJ pizzas, I used a pizza screen. That is what was used by the PJ store near me. However, somewhere along the way, PJ decided to transition to dark anodized perforated disks. You can see what such a disk looks like at http://www.etundra.com/14__Hard_Coat_Superperforated_Disk-P30844.html?utm_source=google%2Bproduct&utm_medium=organic. By contrast, you can see what a screen looks like at http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/update-international/ps-14/p7306.aspx. I have a 14” dark anodized perforated disk but I learned from prior experience that such a disk does not perform as well in my standard electric home oven as a pizza screen. The main reason for that is that the disk has to get up to the required bake temperature before the pizza can start to cook. That can take some time, and usually the result is a crust with a limited oven spring. The texture can also be less than optimum. None of this would be a big issue if only my electric oven behaved like a gas conveyor oven with the unique distribution of top and bottom heat as can only be achieved using such an oven. Unfortunately, the best I can do with my home oven is to move the pizza around in the oven as it bakes to achieve the desired degree of top and bottom bake. At least with a screen, you can get decent oven spring and the crust and crumb should be quite comparable to a real PJ pizza crust.

Turning now to the matter of the extensibility of the dough that you experienced, you will note from Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 that I also experienced a fair degree of extensibility even though it did not pose a particular problem for me. The reason why we both ended up with a more extensible dough that could not be tossed as shown in the video you referenced was because of the flour we both used (KABF) and the amount of water and oil we used to make the dough. At the time of my initial PJ clone experiments, PJ was using a high-gluten flour. I elected to use the KABF because it is a flour that has a reasonable protein content and can be readily purchased at retail in many supermarkets. However, that flour has a rated absorption value of about 62%. The hydration value of the dough that you made is 56.5%. However, the oil also has a wetting effect on the dough. So if we add the 7.3% for the oil and the 56.5%, we get an “effective” hydration of 63.8%, or almost 2% higher than the 62% rated absorption value of the KABF. Had I used a higher-gluten flour than the KABF, such as the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour with a rated absorption value of about 63%, I believe that the above numbers would have yielded a less extensible dough. I also learned much later that it was a good idea to have the sum of the hydration percent and oil percent equal the rated absorption value for the flour used.

I also subsequently learned that the flour that PJ was using a special wheat that was milled exclusively for them by ConAgra at its mill in Deaton, Alabama. There is no way that we can obtain that flour, so that alone can prevent us from achieving the precise crust flavor and taste of the PJ pizzas. I also learned that the protein content of the flour used by PJ was less than 14%. Since I cound not find the exact protein content of that flour (that information is proprietary), I settled on a protein value of about 13.4-13.6% for further analysis. That is a common range for flours that are high in protein but less than the protein content of very high-gluten flours (14-14.2%). Unfortunately, flours with a protein content of 13.4-13.6% are not readily available at the retail level to home bakers. They are usually only available from foodservice companies or the millers of those flours.

At this point, I’d like to suggest that you use the dough formulation set forth below. That formulation was prepared after analyzing the Nutrition Facts for PJ’s breadstick dough. That dough is the same dough as used by PJ to make its pizzas. Recently, I prepared a similar formulation, but for a 12” pizza, which is used to make PJ’s Cheesesticks, and provided the relevant details at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258178.html#msg258178. The details set forth in that post also apply to the formulation set forth below. In your case, should you decide to use the KABF instead of one of the flours or flour blends discussed in that post, you can use some vital wheat gluten (VWG) to supplement the KABF to achieve a protein content for the blend of 13.4-13.6%. I would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate the amount of VWG to use based on the brand of VWG that you have available to you.

If you decide to use the new formulation, you will be the first member to do so to make a 14” PJ clone. Pythonic (Nate) used a quite similar formulation to make a dough for a 12” pizza but to make a clone of the PJ Cheesesticks rather than a 12” PJ clone pizza. Nate used a high-gluten flour (Bouncer) but achieved very good results with that flour. While I can’t guarantee the results in your case with the dough for a 14” pizza, I think that technically it should be fairly close as a clone of a real PJ pizza dough.

Here is the formulation I derived using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour or Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.16%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.5%):
338.69 g  |  11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs
189.67 g  |  6.69 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.44 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
18.8 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
19.95 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
574.09 g | 20.25 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour or Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: the amount of dough is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 20.25/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.131546; no bowl residue compensation

If you decide to proceed and have any questions, let me know.

Peter

Offline Battletoads

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 07:40:07 AM »
Thanks for all the information!  I am going to have see if there is some place in my area that carries VWG.  If not maybe I can order it online.  Once I have it I will give it another shot with the new formulation.

Offline dhorst

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 10:00:31 AM »
Thanks for all the information!  I am going to have see if there is some place in my area that carries VWG.  If not maybe I can order it online.  Once I have it I will give it another shot with the new formulation.

I'm not sure where you live, but I get VWG in the organic section of Wegmans where the organic flours and grains are located.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 10:11:04 AM »
I use the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG since that is the only brand sold in the supermarkets near me. Some stores sell the Bob's Red Mill brand and the Arrowhead Mills brand. And King Arthur sells their own version online. It really doesn't matter which brand is used since the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ can handle any brand, even those not listed in the pull-down menu so long as one knows the percent protein in the particular VWG (usually 65-75% in the U.S.).

Peter

Offline BBB211

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 02:36:12 PM »
Hello Pete. always loving all your threads and leaning so much. Thanks for all your posts.
I just bought a new electric pizza oven from Costco called Manifico. I would love to try ykur Papa Johns clone re recipe but it can only put in 10" pizzas safely. Can you help me figure out how to cut your recipe for 10" dough. 
Thank you.
They say that this oven can get up to 600F. love to find out!
here's the link

http://www.costco.ca/Forno-Magnifico-Electric-Pizza-Oven.product.100022230.htm


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »
BBB211,

Is there a particular window of fermentation that you are after? The basic PJ dough is a 5-8 day dough (cold fermented).

Peter

Offline Battletoads

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 04:04:57 PM »

Here is the formulation I derived using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

Flour or Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.16%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.5%):
338.69 g  |  11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs
189.67 g  |  6.69 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
6.44 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
18.8 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
19.95 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
574.09 g | 20.25 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour or Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: the amount of dough is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 20.25/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.131546; no bowl residue compensation

If you decide to proceed and have any questions, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

I was side tracked by us deciding to sell our home.  We have since sold our home and we have now moved into a new place so I can finally get back to my pizza making.  I have two questions.  First, I use IDY instead of ADY.  I have the conversion of this at .4 g of IDY instead of .54 grams of ADY.  Does that sound correct?  Also, how many day cold ferment is this recipe?  It seems low so I am guessing this is a 5 day cold ferment recipe.  I have my VWG and will be able to attempt this here in the next few days.  I can't wait to report back on my findings.

Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 06:28:06 PM »
Battletoads,

Welcome back and good luck with your new place.

Your conversion from ADY to IDY is correct.

You are also correct about the duration of the cold fermentation. I would say that the window is about 4-7 days. The formulation you will be trying is one of the hardest to execute in a home setting because of the typically wide variations of temperatures of home refrigerators.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline gnatto

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Re: Suggestions Pete-zza's Papa Johns clone attempt
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2013, 07:36:42 PM »
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:48:48 AM by gnatto »