Author Topic: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?  (Read 34561 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 09:20:42 PM »
I believe their bankruptcy wasnt a true one.  They made some bad investments and were freeing up cash.
Nate,

The main reason for going into bankruptcy is to stiff unsecured creditors and free up cash. However, according to the article at http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120303/ISSUE01/303039973/more-dough-new-ceo-for-giordanos, it looks like the new owners have a lot of product changes in mind. From a recent report at http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-09/business/ct-biz-0709-giordanos-20130709_1_phil-martino-giordano-victory-park-capital, it looks like the new owners are keeping hands off the pizza part of the business for now but that could change at some point.
 
Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 09:57:28 PM »
I'm currently watching a DVR recording of a Travel Channel show called "Pizza Paradises," which the info screen says first aired on 7/25/2004. I believe they originally aired two different episodes of "Pizza Paradises" within a short time frame, or possibly back-to-back, as well as a third "Pizza Paradises" episode maybe six months ago (which was horrible, by the way). Right now I have it paused on a shot showing that Giordano's bottom skin is clearly a good bit thinner than the bottom skins on my attempted Giordano's clones, the first of which is pictured in my stuffed pizza blog post (fourth pic from the top). I can't say for sure what my thickness has been, but I've been shooting for TF=0.100 oz per square inch for the bottom skin and TF=0.60 for the top, which means I should have used 13.35 oz of dough for the bottom skin and 4.96 oz for the top skin. In total, I should have used 18.31 oz of dough for each of my stuffed pizzas (10" x 2").

Good news. I happen to have Saturday's scrap dough in the fridge, and I just weighed it. The scrap dough from one of my 10" pizzas weighs 8.8 oz, and the scrap dough from my other 10" pizza weighs 9.4 oz. Since each of Saturday's two stuffed pizzas began with a hair under 30 oz of dough, that means the total dough weight of each pizza was about 21 oz. So since I rolled the top skins noticeably thinner than the bottom skins, I estimate that my bottom skins were about TF=0.110 and my top skins were about 0.08 (which would require a little over 21 oz of dough). I'd say that's probably a very good estimate (and it did involve some pretty intricate math, which fortunately a spreadsheet calculated for me).

Recap: Based on the specs I entered in my spreadsheet, I should have used 18.31 oz of dough, but it looks like I used about 21 oz. So if my estimate for the TF I ended up using for my bottom skin is accurate (TF=0.110), I'd say I want well under TF=0.100 for each of the skins. Probably in the neighborhood of TF=0.09, which calls for a total of 19.46 oz of dough. Or maybe even a little thinner than that.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2013, 11:40:16 AM »
Here's a post I consider potentially another important source of valuable information: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.msg85140.html#msg85140.

In this post BTB says "the pans were 'greased' with real unsalted butter (no oil or crisco)." I'm curious to find out the source of that information. Did someone tell him it was unsalted butter, or did he just assume it was unsalted butter? Because it doesn't look like butter to me. Anytime I've ever looked at butter, it's been white (or nearly white).

To me it seems pretty clear that the substance in BTB's pic is either margarine or butter-flavored shortening. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything; just trying to figure things out.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 01:47:06 PM »
I just made another batch of dough, for Saturday. (For future reference, today is Wednesday.) I was worried yesterday that 1% ADY might make the dough ferment too fast (especially with only 0.9% salt in the dough), but yesterday's dough seems to be doing just fine. (I guess it's because the dough is just stiff enough to slow down fermentation, compared to the fermentation rate I would expect from a NY style dough at 60% hydration.) As a result, I felt comfortable sticking with 1% ADY for today's batch, and I suspect I could even increase the ADY percentage a good bit and still have a dough that makes it to day 3 or day 4.

Instead of using corn oil for this dough, I used shortening. That's the only change I made from yesterday's dough.

I now have three different versions of this dough in the fridge.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 08:33:38 PM »
There is a vid on YouTube where a regional manager is making it while doing an interview and the guy says its butter.  It looks like margarine too me also though because it has a yellow tint.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 08:36:19 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2013, 08:35:08 PM »
I just made another batch of dough, for Saturday. (For future reference, today is Wednesday.) I was worried yesterday that 1% ADY might make the dough ferment too fast (especially with only 0.9% salt in the dough), but yesterday's dough seems to be doing just fine. (I guess it's because the dough is just stiff enough to slow down fermentation, compared to the fermentation rate I would expect from a NY style dough at 60% hydration.) As a result, I felt comfortable sticking with 1% ADY for today's batch, and I suspect I could even increase the ADY percentage a good bit and still have a dough that makes it to day 3 or day 4.

Instead of using corn oil for this dough, I used shortening. That's the only change I made from yesterday's dough.

I now have three different versions of this dough in the fridge.

Until you have the real thing it's gonna be hard to know what you've made.  You should take a road trip or order a frozen one perhaps.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2013, 08:41:29 PM »
Nate,

The main reason for going into bankruptcy is to stiff unsecured creditors and free up cash. However, according to the article at http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120303/ISSUE01/303039973/more-dough-new-ceo-for-giordanos, it looks like the new owners have a lot of product changes in mind. From a recent report at http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-09/business/ct-biz-0709-giordanos-20130709_1_phil-martino-giordano-victory-park-capital, it looks like the new owners are keeping hands off the pizza part of the business for now but that could change at some point.
 
Peter

Yea I guess I meant it wasn't because of lack of pizza sales.  It was strictly to get bad land or building investments off their books.  Giordanos is huge in IL.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2013, 11:24:37 PM »
There is a vid on YouTube where a regional manager is making it while doing an interview and the guy says its butter.  It looks like margarine too me also though because it has a yellow tint.

I've noticed a lot in my lifetime that people often say "butter" when they mean margarine. Or they bring you margarine after you ask for butter. Not a few times, but hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. So it's gonna take a lot to convince me the orange stuff in that picture is butter.

If you know how to quickly find the video, will you post a link to it?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2013, 02:08:44 AM »
Here is the vid.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2013, 10:37:21 AM »
Thanks! That video provides a lot of good hints.

Here's an answer to something people have wondered about for years (judging by the many years' worth of Giordano's threads I've read lately): At 2:40, the district manager says, "All our dough is made [pause] where it's all fresh and shipped to us daily." So now we know their dough comes from a commissary (which I doubt is true of the Florida units, since there are only a handful of them). I'm inclined to think this rules out bulk fermentation.

Here are some other things that stood out to me in this video:

2:15 - Looks like he uses something akin to a plastic dough scraper to scoop and spread the "butter."

2:35 - Bottom skin is clearly made from one dough ball and is not laminated. However, from BTB's pics, it seems pretty clear to me that scrap dough gets recycled. Recycled scrap dough as stiff as theirs is bound to end up creating a bit of a laminated effect. When I worked at Pizza Hut in the early 90s, thin & crispy dough scraps would be put back in the main (bulk-fermented) dough container after sheeting. Consequently, as each day progressed, the thin pizzas would contain more scrap dough and probably had more of a laminated effect than pizzas made earlier in the day. (I never thought about all this stuff back then, but we definitely did it that way.)

3:00 - The "butter" does look a little more like butter here than the "butter" in BTB's pic. Also, it seems like Giordano's dough and "butter" may sometimes pick up a bit of an orange hue in videos, perhaps from the lighting or something (similar to a lot of AimlessRyan's unleavened pizza experiment pics from last year, when one of his kitchen lights needed replaced). I'm now a little more willing to believe it really is butter.

3:24 - He uses two dough balls for the top skin. There's some of the lamination you've been looking for. But how much lamination effect does a laminated top crust add to the final pizza?

3:40 - "How long does it generally take to cook a stuffed pizza?" Answer: About 35 minutes.

4:20 - Sauce is "made by our commissary." (I'm just pointing out that he actually uses the word "commissary" here.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2013, 11:25:44 AM »
Watching the video again, I picked up on something else at 4:20: He uses three ladles of sauce for the 14" pizza, with what appears to be an 8 oz ladle. If it is an 8 oz ladle, this suggests Giordano's uses about 24 oz of sauce on 14" pizzas. Also, it appears that the amount of sauce he fits into the ladle is a little more than the ladle's intended capacity. So he may actually have used more than 24 oz of sauce.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2013, 04:00:11 PM »
Awesome theory on the scraps creating the laminated effect. 

The layers are coveted on the outer rim of the pizza. It adds nothing to the bottom of the pizza and isn't noticable.   The top dough is raw, it melds with the cheese.

Even though dough is made fresh it doesn't mean it is shipped same day.  It could just mean they receive shipments daily of 2-3 day old dough.

What's interesting too is the dough can actually be spun around like a NY pie.

They bake at 465F in a massive rotary oven that has a front sliding door.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:09:12 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2013, 04:56:43 PM »
Even though dough is made fresh it doesn't mean it is shipped same day.  It could just mean they receive shipments daily of 2-3 day old dough.

I didn't mean to imply that I think they're using same-day dough or anything like that. I was just quoting what he said because the quote made it clear that their dough comes from a commissary, rather than being made on-site. I assume they really are using 3-4 day dough, as was stated in the Slice article.

In an hour or two I'm gonna make a stuffed pizza with the IDY dough I made three days ago. (Yes, the IDY works.) Yesterday (Wednesday) I made a kind of rolled deep dish pizza out of scraps from Saturday's dough (which was mixed last Wednesday or Thursday). Since I had two wads of scrap dough, I rolled the two layers individually, then rolled them together to become a single skin. It was pretty awesome. Tasted like an Uno cheese pizza built on a reasonably thick two-layered Pizza Hut T&C crust. Skin weighed about 12 oz (it had a full 1-1/2" tall outer crust), and it had 9 oz of cheese and 10 oz of 7/11. Took some pictures, which I may share.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2013, 08:52:55 PM »
Tonight's pizza was good (my friend Lisa loved it), but the dough was too soft (49% hydration + 6% oil, with Pillsbury bleached AP). Since the two batches I already have in the fridge are 50% hydration, I just made a semi-emergency batch for Saturday with 47% hydration and 6% shortening.

Also, I put a little more cheese in tonight's pizza than usual (14 oz, rather than 13 oz), and it didn't quite ooze out the sides of the slices like normal. So I'll go back to 13 oz for Saturday's pizzas.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2013, 06:27:20 AM »

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2013, 07:02:22 AM »
I wanted to give you some real good shots of the crust so you can see how different it is vs the other Chicago places.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2013, 07:03:17 AM »
Few more
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2013, 09:56:08 AM »
Nate, I feel like most of your pics show a crust that looks very similar to my crust on this pizza. Especially this pic. Are you seeing something different?

(I'm sure there must be a way for me to repost those pictures in this reply, rather than making people have to follow a link to see them, but I can't figure out how to do it. Can anyone give me a clue how to do that?)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline norma427

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 10:46:48 AM »

(I'm sure there must be a way for me to repost those pictures in this reply, rather than making people have to follow a link to see them, but I can't figure out how to do it. Can anyone give me a clue how to do that?)

Ryan,

One way to post a photo that has been posted is to right click on the photo (save image as) and save it to your downloaded images on your computer and then just attach it in your post.  The next way is to click on the Reply where the photo was right up at the top of where it would says the reply number and then copy the URL at the top of your browser to a word processor, or a note pad.  That will take you right to that reply.  Just make sure you don't have a period at the end of the URL.  That is what works for me, but maybe other members have other ideas.

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2013, 10:56:31 AM »
At the bottom of a pic click on the paper clip....a window comes up to file it....repost from file.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2013, 11:14:34 AM »
At the bottom of a pic click on the paper clip....a window comes up to file it....repost from file.

Thanks Bob, I didn't know that trick before.   ;D

Norma

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2013, 11:30:53 AM »
....a window comes up to file it....repost from file.

Not sure what that means, unless by "file it" you're saying it asks you if you want to save it. I know how to save a pic that's already here, then upload it. I'm trying to avoid saving and uploading copies of pics that already exist here. Seems like it should be pretty easy. Am I missing something?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2013, 12:25:22 PM »
Nate, I feel like most of your pics show a crust that looks very similar to my crust on this pizza. Especially this pic. Are you seeing something different?

(I'm sure there must be a way for me to repost those pictures in this reply, rather than making people have to follow a link to see them, but I can't figure out how to do it. Can anyone give me a clue how to do that?)

Like I said their crust is totally original.  Nothing else tastes and feels like it.  You will have to try it for yourself and compare to your own.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline norma427

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2013, 12:50:32 PM »
Not sure what that means, unless by "file it" you're saying it asks you if you want to save it. I know how to save a pic that's already here, then upload it. I'm trying to avoid saving and uploading copies of pics that already exist here. Seems like it should be pretty easy. Am I missing something?

Ryan,

I don't know how your computer works, but when I used Bob's advice to click on the paper clip thing it automatically downloaded the photo to my downloads on my computer.  Like Bob says it was easy peasy.  Maybe your computer doesn't work like mine does though. 

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2013, 01:36:49 PM »
test for pic transferring...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25774.msg274829.html#msg274829


     Nope...that doesn't do it. Sorry Ryan, but I believe this has been recently discussed(along with not being able to insert text in between pics) and as you've noted, it can't be easily done.

I wonder why if you right click on an image and hit the "copy image" nothing happens when you go to "paste" that image? I'm sure that is what you(and others) are wanting to do Ryan.


   

« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 01:43:55 PM by Chicago Bob »
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