Author Topic: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?  (Read 36114 times)

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Offline jkolassa

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Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« on: June 12, 2013, 11:43:59 PM »
So I posted a while back about wanting to make a giordano's pizza at home.  Things got busy and money was tight (I needed to buy a pan) so that got put on the back burner.  I finally have the opportunity to do it now and am very motivated to try this.  There are tons of threads on this subject with a bunch of different recipes.  I was hoping to get a good thread dedicated of the truest Giordano's Clone.  I'm hoping to have a definitive answer from someone who has

1.Actually had Giordano's from the pizzeria
2. Tried multiple clone recipes
3. Looked like this  :drool: after eating the recipe they post.

1 and 3 are requirements and 2 isn't required but  the most important part is that obviously I want it be as close to Giordano's as possible.  You may have come across a great recipe for pizza but if it is good for other reasons than tasting like Giordano's I'm not interested. I know there are a bunch of threads on this subject but they are more about figuring it out.  I want this to be more like just a list of the recipes with maybe a little bit about how close it is to Giordano's.


Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 09:17:59 PM »
Giordano's is my favorite too.  The link below has a post by "Chicago Rules" and his pic is the closest that I've seen.  But without a sheeter you are gonna miss a crucial part in replicating Giordano's flakiness.  There is also a very distinct flavor in their crust that I am unable to pinpoint. I'm sure u know what I'm talking about.
I know they use Stella mozzarella, 6-1 tomatoes and they bake at 465F in a rotary type oven that looks expensive as hell.

I really feel Giordanos needs to be revisited on here because it truly is one of the best pizzas in the country.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2314.0.html

Nate
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:47:38 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2013, 09:21:29 PM »
Here is another that looks very close but that top layer is too thick.

http://johnsonville.org/index.php?ndx=101
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:47:10 PM by pythonic »
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2013, 09:22:47 PM »
And here is one more.  Not sure if it's the same as the first link because it mentions Chicago Rules.

http://www.kitchenmonki.com/m/recipe/Giordanos_Famous_Stuffed_Crust_Recipe
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2013, 11:35:24 PM »
So I posted a while back about wanting to make a giordano's pizza at home.  Things got busy and money was tight (I needed to buy a pan) so that got put on the back burner.  I finally have the opportunity to do it now and am very motivated to try this.  There are tons of threads on this subject with a bunch of different recipes.  I was hoping to get a good thread dedicated of the truest Giordano's Clone.  I'm hoping to have a definitive answer from someone who has

1.Actually had Giordano's from the pizzeria
2. Tried multiple clone recipes
3. Looked like this  :drool: after eating the recipe they post.

1 and 3 are requirements and 2 isn't required but  the most important part is that obviously I want it be as close to Giordano's as possible.  You may have come across a great recipe for pizza but if it is good for other reasons than tasting like Giordano's I'm not interested. I know there are a bunch of threads on this subject but they are more about figuring it out.  I want this to be more like just a list of the recipes with maybe a little bit about how close it is to Giordano's.
Sure thing man...here ya go!  :drool:   I hope it meets your "requirements" dude!!!   8)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search2
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 11:28:23 PM »
Anyone gonna try one of the above recipes?
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline jkolassa

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 05:15:48 PM »
Hey chicago Bob the one you posted just brought me to a page that said "Did you forget to put something to search for?" Could you repost the link?  Also, all of the recipes posted have been for a 9" pizza.  The pan I bought is 12".  Does it work to just multiply all ingredients by 4/3?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 05:42:26 PM »
Hey chicago Bob the one you posted just brought me to a page that said "Did you forget to put something to search for?" Could you repost the link?  Also, all of the recipes posted have been for a 9" pizza.  The pan I bought is 12".  Does it work to just multiply all ingredients by 4/3?
Sorry, the link was sardonic.
You have to do a little math to convert pan sizes...here is how it's done.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1662.msg14990.html#msg14990
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 05:46:21 PM »
Joe,

I believe that Bob meant to refer you to the search page at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search. To get to that page, you only need to click on the Search button at the top of each page.

If the dough formulation you plan to use is in baker's percent format, it is perhaps best to use the applicable dough calculating tool and modify it for the 12" size. But, in general, the multiplier factor you want to use is the ratio of the squares of the radii of the two size pizzas. In this case, it would be 62/4.52 = 1.78. If you multiply the values of the quantities of ingredients used for the 9" pizza by 1.78, that will give you the values of those ingredients to use for the 12" size.

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 06:06:26 PM »
Oh that's right joe...I forgot about the dough calculators. You can enter any size pizza/pan you want on there and then just plug in your ingredient amounts.
Come back here if you have a problem.

Bob
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Offline jkolassa

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 11:13:50 PM »
Yeah I knew about the Dough calculators. But none of these recipes have been in bakers percentages have they?  As for the method Pete-zza outlined, using the area of the pizza, that will work for non-bakers percentage recipes?

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 11:25:34 PM »
Yeah I knew about the Dough calculators. But none of these recipes have been in bakers percentages have they?  As for the method Pete-zza outlined, using the area of the pizza, that will work for non-bakers percentage recipes?
Yes sir.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 10:08:30 AM »
As for the method Pete-zza outlined, using the area of the pizza, that will work for non-bakers percentage recipes?
Joe,

As Bob noted, yes, but the extrapolation may not be exact when volume measurements are used, especially for the flour and water, because measuring out ingredients volumetrically is far less accurate and inconsistent than using weights. If you have a particular recipe in mind perhaps I can take a look at it and tell you how best to proceed to convert it to the pan size you want to use.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2013, 08:18:44 PM »
I want to see some attempts dammit.
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Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 06:18:36 PM »
I am gonna be trying each of these different recipes soon.  I just need to figure out which pan I'm gonna use.  Giordanos stuffed pizzas are the best in Chicago and they really do need some love around here.
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 09:54:35 PM »
I was just about to start a new thread with pics of the stuffed pizzas I've made in recent days (particularly the one I made yesterday), but my computer won't let me upload pics. So anyway, here's a blog post I published the other day (and have updated a couple times). It's not a very thorough post because I originally published it just to share the pics with Facebook friends (because my computer won't let me upload pics to Facebook, either). Anyway, I think you'll like it.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 01:58:38 AM »
OK, so I've never had Giordano's or any other stuffed pizza, which means I don't know how it's supposed to taste. All I know is what it looks like. But y'know, sometimes looks can tell you a lot. And I feel like I've pretty well interpreted the look of Giordano's and translated it into a near-clone.

I started my quest to clone Giordano's by reading everything I could find about Giordano's on these boards, as well as elsewhere on the internet. It was difficult to make any sense of it, though, because the most active contributors didn't use bakers' percents and because the posts with the best pictures didn't include any kind of formula or recipe. After reading almost everything I could find, I got the impression that a couple members seemed pretty confident in their recipes, so I did my best to translate their volumetric measurements to weight measurements. After entering some of these weight estimates into my spreadsheet that converts weight-based recipes to formulas, it told me these guys are probably doing something like:

100% Flour
50% Water
1% ADY
1% Salt
18% Oil
4.5% Sugar

Once I established this formula, the first thing I did was say to myself, "4.5% sugar? No way. We'll change that to 2% (which is probably still pretty ridiculously high)." And then I said to myself, "18% oil? No way." Someone's apparently confusing this stuff with Malnati's style deep dish.

Even though I've never had Giordano's, I know their dough is nothing like Malnati's dough. I can tell just by looking at the Giordano's dough that their dough is more like Pizza Hut thin than Malnati's. And I'm pretty sure Pizza Hut thin has little or no fat. So right away I cut the 18% oil figure in half. Even after cutting the oil percentage in half, I knew 50% hydration was probably too high. So I decreased the hydration to 45%.

Here's the dough formula I used for my very first attempt at cloning Giordano's:

100% Gold Medal all-purpose flour
45% Water
1% ADY
1.08% Salt
9.38% Oil
2% Sugar

I used this formula to make some dough last Tuesday morning, knowing I'd turn it into a pizza that afternoon or evening. I was very pleased with my results. However, 2% sugar was obviously too much. I don't know if the crust tasted anything like Giordano's crust because I've never had Giordano's. I know it looked a lot like Giordano's, though, aside from the excessive browning.

In one post I read, someone (probably Peter) speculated that the fat percentage in Giordano's dough may be as low as 6%. Based on the look of their dough, I thought that was a very reasonable estimate. So with my next batch, I wanted to be closer to 6%, but I didn't want to make a huge change because my first batch of dough was pretty good and because my next batch would be used to feed guests.

Also, I read on Slice that Giordano's dough is a 3 or 4-day dough, which told me I need to decrease the yeast. So I decreased the ADY from 1% to 0.6%, for a dough I'd be using about 2-1/2 days later.

But the most important (and biggest) change I made was with the sugar. I was originally so blinded by everyone's sugar-heavy recipes that I totally overlooked a post in which Peter transcribed Giordano's official dough ingredient list. (I don't know the proper terminology to use here.) Anyway, Peter's list did not include sugar. So you know what I did? Yup, I eliminated sugar from my formula.

Here's the formula of my second dough batch:

100% Pillsbury AP flour
46% Water
0.6% ADY
1.5% Salt
8% Oil

Again, I don't know if this dough or crust was anything like Giordano's because I've never had Giordano's. But just look at it. And then look at pictures of actual Giordano's pizzas. It looks just like Giordano's to me.

And that's my entire experience in this department so far. My next batch of dough will be:

100% Pillsbury or Gold Medal AP flour
49% Water
0.8% ADY (but I may switch to IDY for this batch)
1.5% Salt
6% Oil

In case you're wondering, there's no real reason why I used different flours for the two batches. I simply used what I had. My go-to AP flour is Pillsbury bleached, but I've been trying Gold Medal lately, and it seems to work pretty well, too. I don't like KAAP.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 05:43:34 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline norma427

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2013, 07:52:54 AM »
I made a few stuffed deep dish pizzas.   

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.0.html

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20222.0.html

and at Reply 239 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90089.html#msg90089

I never had a stuffed deep dish from any pizzerias so I am not sure how my attempts were compared to a real pizzaeria.

Norma

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2013, 12:36:22 PM »
I had to put my computer in Safe Mode to do this, but it looks like that will allow me to upload pictures. Hope you enjoy. And again, here's a blog post that may reveal some details I didn't include in Reply #16.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 12:15:57 AM »
Ryan,

Your stuffed pizza looks really good but until you actually have it you'll know a few things are missing.  They use a sheeter so their dough has layers.  There is also a very different taste and almost a dry texture to the rim of their dough (dry biscuit like)  Their sauce makes the pizza too.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 07:54:12 AM by pythonic »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 11:30:11 AM »
I've been looking through Norma's first thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg87298.html#msg87298), and I like it. I'm surprised that thread didn't get more attention. I didn't see the thread when I was reading everything I could find about stuffed pizza last week. I think Norma's dough formula is much closer to the real thing than any of the recipes I've seen elsewhere, except I have a pretty strong feeling the oil percentage is excessively high. (Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I feel pretty sure Giordano's dough contains a lot less fat.)

I think BTB's post in that thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg87338.html#msg87338) is a very important piece of the Giordano's puzzle. What he said confirms some suspicions I had about Giordano's crust--mainly that the top and bottom crusts are the same thickness--and it has also given me some other ideas, which I intend to share later in a response on that thread.

Here's a post I think is very important. It's the information Peter received from Giordano's about dough ingredients: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg51855.html#msg51855. It lists the ingredients as "Flour, water, vegetable oil, yeast, salt, spices." Take note that sugar is not listed as an ingredient. (That's a huge piece of the puzzle right there.) Also, yeast is listed before salt, which suggests that Giordano's may use ADY or that there is a very low salt percentage in their dough. In fact, it suggests that the salt percentage is likely very low regardless of which kind of yeast they use, because if they use the dough 3-4 days after mixing, it seems very unlikely that they use more than 1% yeast. Which means the salt percentage is probably well under 1%. To me, the big question is this: What are "spices"?

In this post (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg56707.html#msg56707), Peter says he estimates that Giordano's uses 13 oz of cheese for 10" pizzas. Interestingly, 13 oz of cheese is exactly what I've used for the 10" pizzas I've made. (Also, 13 oz is a figure I decided to use before seeing Peter's post.) Having made three of these pizzas so far, I feel like 13 oz is about right, but I think a little more cheese would be fine, too. (Did I just say that?)

Also, Peter says in this post (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg69605.html#msg69605) that the weight of a baked 10" Giordano's stuffed spinach pizza is 42 oz. With the portions and thicknesses I've used so far, my unbaked 10" stuffed cheese pizza target weight has been 46.38 oz (13.35 oz for bottom dough, 13.04 oz of cheese, 4.96 oz for top dough, and 15.03 oz of sauce). Keep in mind, every pizza loses a little weight while it bakes. Again, I arrived at this weight totally independent of Peter's input. And I only mention that because to me it helps confirm that Peter and I are both on the right track. (I haven't remembered to weigh a baked pizza yet.)

Judging by the color of the dough in , I suspect Giordano's may use unbleached flour.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 12:32:18 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 01:30:36 PM »
Yours looks much closer than Norma's in my opinion.  Sorry Norma.

The top crust at Giordanos isn't fully cooked (its doughy and actually melds with the cheese.  It appears thinner everytime I have eaten it (about 50 times) but perhaps not cooking it changes the texture.

I agree there is very little salt in the dough.  Their sauce goes perfectly with their crust though.  It is a key element.   Giordanos coats there pans with butter too just before they form the bottom crust.  I don't know if it's the butter that gives there dough a distinct flavor or what.   The outer rim is flaky like a crossaint but with less fat and its drier.  I know they bake at 465F too.  Supposedly they use Stella mozzarella and 6-1 tomatoes.

Nate
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 01:36:09 PM by pythonic »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 02:37:19 PM »
I made some dough last night for Thursday, using this formulation:

100% Pillsbury bleached AP flour
49% Water
0.4% IDY
1.5% Salt
6% Corn oil

However, I'm not sure if my IDY is any good, so I'm about to make another batch, just to be sure I have usable dough Thursday, since I'm mostly doing it for a friend. Only this time, I'm gonna use unbleached flour and ADY, as well as less salt and a tad bit more water. This batch will be:

100% Pillsbury unbleached AP flour
50% Water
1% ADY
0.9% Salt
6% Corn oil

I've been using shortening to grease the pan. Not really for any clear reason other than because Giordano's obviously uses some kind of solid fat in the pan. I've read that it's butter and I've read that it's margarine, and I may have also read that it's shortening. Since I haven't given a lot of thought to what it may be, I'm using shortening. Also, I'll probably put a piece of aluminum foil on the top rack of the oven when I bake the next one because I feel like I've been getting a little more influence than I want from the top burner.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 05:29:56 PM »
Ryan,

For a list of spices that are generally regarded as safe by the FDA, see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=182.10

Giordano's is not particularly forthcoming publicly about the ingredients it uses for its pizzas and it does not disclose nutrition information for the products sold in its stores. Since it sells frozen pizzas, the FDA requires Nutrition Facts but, as best I can tell, it does not provide that information at its website even though it is public information. That information should, however, be on the packaging materials for its frozen pizzas. But, even then, that doesn't mean that the frozen pizzas are the same or as good as the pizzas sold in their stores. Companies like Giordano's that sell frozen pizza versions of their freshly baked pizzas like the public to believe this but this is rarely the case. The ingredients can be different (but not too different) and the pizza weights can be different, and certainly making frozen pizzas is not the same as making fresh pizzas.

In Giordano's case, things may also have changed because of their bankruptcy filing a few years ago. Those changes can include the formulations for their products although that has to be handled carefully and perhaps gradually so that their customers don't rebel and abandon Giordano's because the changes did not meet with their satisfaction.

Peter

Offline pythonic

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 08:05:40 PM »
I believe their bankruptcy wasnt a true one.  They made some bad investments and were freeing up cash.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.