Author Topic: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?  (Read 24540 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #160 on: September 03, 2013, 11:34:08 AM »
Ryan,

I'm curious to know how your side tests with the Mondako dough and the partial butterering of the pan turned out.

Peter


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #161 on: September 03, 2013, 02:13:15 PM »
Ryan,

I'm curious to know how your side tests with the Mondako dough and the partial butterering of the pan turned out.

Peter

Peter,

Y'know, I thought I had some clear results regarding that stuff when I posted last night. But as I indicated, I did have a nice beer buzz while I updated. So what I have to say now is a little different than what I would have said when I posted the pics last night.

As you can see in the first picture below, the near part of the crust is noticeably darker than most of the rest of the crust. Originally I thought the dark area showed that the Mondako dough came out a little darker than the Power flour dough. However, after looking some more, I'm more inclined to say it appears that about 2/3 of the crust is pretty dark, which may suggest that the darker color is a result of greasing the pan with butter. If you look at the pic of the buttered pan, the butter seems to occupy about the same space as the dark crust. So I'd say the results of my butter and dough experiment last night are kind of inconclusive at this point.

However, because there was no part of the crust that browned considerably less than any other part of the crust, I feel pretty comfortable saying a buttered pan does not contribute much browning of the crust (but that it probably does contribute some browning). This also indicates to me that both the Power flour and the Mondako flour brown a lot more than the AP flours I've used for this style of pizza. And since this kind of dough/crust easily comes out of an unbuttered/unoiled pan after baking for 35 minutes at 460, I'm inclined to say buttering the pan is mostly wasted energy, as well as wasted money.

One thing worth noting is that the small piece of Mondako dough ended up occupying considerably more area of the bottom crust than you might assume by looking at the dough picture. So most of the darker brown area of crust might have resulted entirely from the Mondako dough's influence, rather than the butter's influence.

Summary: I'm not sure if the darker area of crust resulted from buttering the pan or if it resulted from the partial inclusion of Mondako dough scraps. I'm almost certain the darker area resulted from one of those things, but I'm not sure which. I'm leaning toward saying it was the butter.

Ryan
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:45:58 PM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #162 on: September 04, 2013, 12:11:46 AM »
Peter,


Summary: I'm not sure if the darker area of crust resulted from buttering the pan or if it resulted from the partial inclusion of Mondako dough scraps. I'm almost certain the darker area resulted from one of those things, but I'm not sure which. I'm leaning toward saying it was the butter.

Ryan
Did you compare the undersides?
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #163 on: September 04, 2013, 01:04:18 AM »
Did you compare the undersides?

It seems like that should have happened by now, but you hardly ever see the bottom of these things. It's not exactly the kind of pizza you turn upside down, or sideways, or even slightly tilted. Also, thereís just something about these pizzas thatís kinda mesmerizing. Not sure if I can pinpoint exactly what it is, though.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #164 on: September 04, 2013, 02:07:22 PM »
It seems like that should have happened by now, but you hardly ever see the bottom of these things. It's not exactly the kind of pizza you turn upside down, or sideways, or even slightly tilted. Also, thereís just something about these pizzas thatís kinda mesmerizing. Not sure if I can pinpoint exactly what it is, though.
Nice pics Ryan; I think you duly captured your "mesmerizing factor"....CHEESE MONSTER!!  :drool:
The "bite" on/into these things is a pretty phenomenal experience thing too though.  ;)
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Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #165 on: October 02, 2013, 10:41:38 AM »
Hey Ryan,

I really want to try making a couple of 9" Giordano's clones this weekend and I could use your advice. Can you break down the amounts of all of the ingredients and instructions for making the top and bottom crusts? I have two 9"x2" straight-sided pans. Hope I'm not asking too much, but you've been very generous with your knowledge thus far and your posts have given me confidence after years of wanting to try.

Thanks!
Monte

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #166 on: October 02, 2013, 06:41:24 PM »
No problem, Monte. Here's what I think should be an adequate dough formula, followed by a recipe for 56 oz (1,588 g) of dough, which should be just right for two 9" pizzas.

100% Flour
47% Water
1% ADY
0.9% Salt
6% Fat (shortening or oil)

36.15 oz Flour
16.99 oz Water
0.36 oz ADY (3.62 tsp)
0.33 oz Salt (1.89 tsp)
2.17 oz Fat

or

1025 g Flour
482 g Water
10 g ADY
9 g Salt
61 g Fat

Try to make the dough as soon as you see this. I'd say you should use bread flour, rather than AP flour. Refrigerate (bulk ferment) immediately after mixing, covered.

A few hours before you intend to bake, pull the dough from the fridge and scale into four dough balls. Two dough balls (for main crust) should be 16.12 oz (457 g) and the other two (for top crust) should be 11.79 oz (334 g). Leave them at room temperature, covered (or not covered, if you want them to get a little crusty).

A few hours later: For the main crust, roll one of the larger dough balls so it's just big enough to fit snugly inside the pan, going all the way up the sides and hanging over the top of the pan about an inch all the way around. Fill with 10.44 oz (296 g) of mozzarella, plus toppings of your choice, before adding the top crust.

For the top crust, roll one of the smaller dough balls so it's big enough to cover the whole pan, with the dough hanging over the top of the pan about an inch all the way around. This may be thicker than you think you want it to be. If it is, just roll it a little thinner.

After putting the top dough skin in place, pinch several holes in the top skin and crimp the two skins together all the way around the side of the pan. Use a sharp knife or a pastry roller to trim the excess dough around the top of the pan. Add about 11.06 oz (314 g) of sauce on top of the top skin and use gravity to distribute the sauce. Sprinkle parmesan cheese and bake on a preheated stone at 460 for about 35 minutes.

You'll be left with enough scrap dough to make another pizza, but you'll probably have to make it a little thinner or a little smaller, or make it the same size with a very thin top skin or no top skin.

I think everything I've said here should be good information. If you have any questions, or if anything doesn't seem right to you, just say something.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 07:05:39 PM by Aimless Ryan »

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #167 on: October 03, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
Thanks much for the reply, Ryan. Appreciate the instructions. Probably won't be able to make the dough until Thursday night, so maybe Sunday is too soon to make the pizzas? What's the optimum cold ferment time on the dough?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #168 on: October 03, 2013, 08:26:23 PM »
Optimum: I'd like to give it five days, but you should be fine.

That's a tough question, for at least a couple reasons: 1) I've only made 7 or 8 of these; 2) I've never had Giordano's or any other stuffed pizza except the ones I've made; 3) With half of the batches of Giordano's style dough I've made, I've been trying to get the feel for IDY, which may not be in the most usable condition.

1% ADY (or 0.75% IDY, with cooler water) should still work fine. I think you can get away with a big yeast percentage range with this kind of dough. One thing is certain: Even though it might be best to give this dough a little longer cold fermentation, 2.5 or 3 days of fermentation is still adequate. Maybe you should save the scraps for another pizza at least a couple days later. That way you can get a feel for how a single dough changes with a couple extra days of fermentation.

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #169 on: October 06, 2013, 12:23:07 AM »
Dough has been in the fridge since Thursday night, sauce is mixed and in the fridge, so I'm going to try this tomorrow afternoon. One last concern Ė I don't have a stone. Does this change things considerably, or do I follow the same baking time/temp and put the pan on the middle rack?


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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2013, 01:45:41 AM »
You'll probably be fine without a stone. My guess is that it'll just take a little longer for the bottom of the pan to get up to baking temperature. Might not make any difference at all, for all I know. 35-minute bake time has worked well for me, but I think I baked one of them for 40 minutes and it came out fine. The only time I've had any problem was when I forgot I had the oven set at 500 until the pizza had already been baking for 12 or 13 minutes. That one (my third one) came out a little overdone and tough on the bottom, but I think mostly it was all right.

Even though most of the stuffed pizzas I've made so far have been in the direction of phenomenal, I don't have enough experience with this style yet to really know much about it. Not to mention I have never had Giordano's, which makes it harder for me to know if I'm doing it right, even if I am doing it right. So just realize that some things I say may be wrong, even though I think what I'm telling you is good information.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2013, 01:57:38 AM »
If the previous post wasn't clear, I guess I'm saying you probably want to give it 40 minutes, just to be safe. At this point I have no idea how to judge visually when the pizza is done. I made an educated guess with my first one, and it worked, so I haven't really changed the bake time.

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?q
« Reply #172 on: October 07, 2013, 09:49:31 PM »
Well, my first attempt was unsuccessful for many reasons, not the least of which was the oven getting shut off at some unknown point. Tried again tonight with the scrap dough and can confirm that Ryan's dough is as close to Giordano's as I've ever had. Was really surprised how close it comes to the real thing.

Everything wrong with the first two pizzas mostly had to do with technique - mainly rolled too thick - and I fixed it with tonight's pizza. An extra day in the fridge helped, too. The only bread flour at my grocery store was King Arthur, but it turned out well. Thanks again Ryan!

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #173 on: October 07, 2013, 11:49:04 PM »
Awesome! Glad it turned out well, and glad to hear some feedback from someone who's actually had Giordano's. Now go mix up some more dough and try it again in about five days, now that you have a better feel for it.

What kind of tomato product did you use? It looks like a puree or something. If you can get any, try Stanislaus Tomato Magic, Escalon 6 IN 1 (without peels), or Stanislaus 7/11. Also, did you try the sauce recipe from earlier in this thread?

Offline MontsterTX

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #174 on: October 08, 2013, 04:32:13 PM »
I worked from the recipe you posted earlier in the thread, taking some suggestions from later posts (swapping garlic powder for garlic salt, adding red pepper flakes) and modifying some things to taste.

I used a combination of Carmelina's San Marzanos whole peeled tomatoes and Glen Muir crushed tomatoes. I've been looking for the 6-in1 tomatoes with no luck for a while now, as they were the most frequently mentioned on previous threads. I might order some online for my next try, if I can't find them here in San Antonio. The tomatoes weren't bad, though, and I think the sauce would be better if I strained them a bit and used less of the puree they were packaged in.

I'll definitely use more cheese next time, too; closer to 13 oz., but that's more of a personal preference.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 04:34:02 PM by MontsterTX »

Offline MightyMouth

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #175 on: October 13, 2013, 07:31:20 AM »
My first go at making a Giordano's style pizza, I have never had one so I have nothing to compare it to but it was fantastic. Used Aimless Ryan's Dough and Sauce recipe's.

Dough for one 10" pizza

570 g Flour 100%
268 g Water 47%
5.5g ADY 1%
5g salt .9%
34g oil 6%

Sauce

1 400g Crushed/Ground tomatoes
1/2 Tsp Salt
1/2 Tsp Garlic powder
a Pinch Ground pepper
1/4 tsp Sweet basil
1/8 tsp Sugar
1/8 tsp Marjoram
1/8 tsp Oregano
1/8 tsp Parsley
1 Tbsp Olive oil (34.89 g)

I didn't have time to let the dough proof for 5 days or whatever, I mixed the dough in a stand mixer for about 2 minutes until it was just combined and then kneaded it on the counter for about 30 seconds maximum, it looked very raggy and was much dryer than any pizza dough I have ever made. I let it rise for 2 hours then made the pizza without further proofing. The crust was really nice, tender and flaky. I think probably should have waited 10 minutes or so before cutting it.








Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #176 on: October 13, 2013, 12:18:05 PM »
Nice!

It's awesome to see some other people following my lead. Especially considering there has never been much effort, either here or elsewhere on the internet, to really figure out this style of pizza. To make that pizza after just a two-hour ferment, especially out of dough that's formulated to be used after at least a few days of cold fermentation, is impressive.

Montster and MightyMouth: You guys better stick around here. The fact that both of you made these pizzas nearly immediately after joining the forum is unbelievably impressive. It seems pretty clear to me that both of you had a good bit of experience making pizza before you joined, but even if so, it's still very impressive. You both obviously put a good bit of work and research into this, at least by carefully reading this whole thread, before you started participating. That's very uncharacteristic of most new members.

All of a sudden this is making me seriously consider taking a trip to Chicago just to try Giordano's for the first time. Since people are clearly interested in trying to replicate my efforts, I want to find out if I've been pointing them in the right direction. Interestingly, both me and the two people who have followed my lead have never had Giordano's. Although I think all three of us have made amazing-looking pizzas, we need someone who's actually had Giordano's to give it a try. Nate?

Offline MightyMouth

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #177 on: October 13, 2013, 02:04:25 PM »
Thanks for the praise, I always research new things before trying them, it would be more time and effort trying to make something without knowing as much about it as you can. I prefer to use the experience of others.

I have made many New York style pizza and worked in a pizzeria for a couple years when I was much younger.

Online Garvey

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #178 on: October 13, 2013, 08:38:13 PM »
It's awesome to see some other people following my lead. Especially considering there has never been much effort, either here or elsewhere on the internet, to really figure out this style of pizza.

Careful there, buddy: you might get tennis elbow from patting yourself on the back too much. 

I dig your work, but there is no need to crap all over the forum with the idea that not much work has been put in here.  There are at least a couple of very, very long threads and multiple formulations on here.

And FWIW, the definitive Giordano's has spinach.  I suppose people eat other pies there, but spinach is their signature deal.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?
« Reply #179 on: October 13, 2013, 10:26:58 PM »
Careful there, buddy: you might get tennis elbow from patting yourself on the back too much. 

I dig your work, but there is no need to crap all over the forum with the idea that not much work has been put in here.  There are at least a couple of very, very long threads and multiple formulations on here.

I wasn't patting myself on the back or trying to insult anyone. It's just a simple fact that there's not much substantial information about this style of pizza on the internet or anywhere else, especially compared to pretty much every other popular style of pizza. If you want to learn how to make NY style, Neapolitan, deep dish, Chicago thin, cracker, laminated cracker (Shakey's, Round Table, Tommy's), Papa John's, or essentially any other style out there, there is an abundance of good information, offered by countless people; mostly on these boards. Including dough formulas and possibly just about anything you'll ever need to know about how to modify your oven or grill to suit a specific style of pizza, or even to build an oven suited only for a specific style of pizza. If you go the the NY style boards and post a dough recipe in volumetric measurements, it will almost certainly disappear into obscurity in almost no time because it's not 2003 anymore. Because Scott123 knows a thousand times more about NY style pizza than anyone on the Food Network payroll or any other celebrity chef or "expert" out there. And he's not the only one. He's just the most knowledgeable. There are probably at least a few dozen other people on these boards who know more about NY style than just about anyone who's not a member of this site.

With stuffed, there may be a couple long threads on these boards, but I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread. And there are very few pictures. For a style of pizza as well-known as Giordano's stuffed, especially considering it doesn't require any special or modified equipment, that's essentially the same thing as no information.

When I said "following my lead," all I meant is that I think it's very cool that a couple people have already tried recreating specifically what I've created here, in an effort for us all to understand what changes may need to be made. I said that because for more than two and a half years of trying to clone Tommy's Pizza (laminated cracker), no one tried to do what I was doing, and it got kinda lonely. Finally, a few weeks ago or so, someone tried cloning Tommy's by building on the foundation I'd spent nearly three years building, and then he posted a whole bunch of pictures of the whole process. That's one of the best gifts anyone can give you after you've spent so long doing it all alone. Same thing here, even though I really haven't spent much time working on this style of pizza.

When I tried 2% sugar and quickly decided 2% sugar is way too much sugar, was I patting myself on the back for sharing something I learned after doing something that I now consider the wrong way to do it? No, I was simply wrong, and I learned from it. Tell me I was wrong. It won't offend me. It won't hurt my ego. It's just the truth. And if you know there's something I'm doing wrong that I haven't already figured out, please tell me (and everyone else) what I'm doing wrong.