Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 15664 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Do you think I should try to get a sample of wheat starch to play around with, or don't you think it would be worth the bother?
Norma,

That is up to you. It was more curiosity that prompted me to research the wheat starch matter further. Using the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx, and assuming that the PJ dough ingredients are in the right order by weight, it appears that one teaspoon of wheat starch weighs only 2.78 grams. So, I am not sure that it is worth the effort to try to recreate the PJ flour blend when only a small amount would be used for a single dough ball.  And you don't want ADM or other source to be sending you a 50-lb bag of wheat starch.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Do you have any idea how I am going to make a home version of the PJ Garlic sauce?  I think that task is very hard and am not sure what to try next.
Norma,

My thinking is that if you want Product A to look and taste like Product B, the best starting point is to try to recreate Product B, especially when you know the ingredients that are used to make Product B. So, in this case, I would wait for the McCormick product to see if that product does the trick when combined with the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine spread and some garlic powder. If that combination doesn't prove satisfactory, then I would have to rethink the whole exercise to see if there is any point in proceeding. If you get the McCormick product, you might post your results at the main PJ thread where you left off to try the non-clones of the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

That is up to you. It was more curiosity that prompted me to research the wheat starch matter further. Using the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx, and assuming that the PJ dough ingredients are in the right order by weight, it appears that one teaspoon of wheat starch weighs only 2.78 grams. So, I am not sure that it is worth the effort to try to recreate the PJ flour blend when only a small amount would be used for a single dough ball.  And you don't want ADM or other source to be sending you a 50-lb bag of wheat starch.

Peter

Peter,

I know your curiosity prompts you to research anything related to pizza that you don't already know a lot about and wheat starch is no different than any things you have researched.   ;D

I on the other hand I like to experiment with different ingredients I never tried for pizza, just to see what happens.  I guess I am the crazy person that wants to see what different ingredients do in pizza doughs.   :-D  I might contact ADM to see if I can get a sample of the wheat starch to play around with.  On the CamBrooke Foods website and on other places on the web there is an interesting pizza dough. http://www.cambrookefoods.com/recipes_and_tips/recipe_detail.php?id=15 I don't use Metamucil, but my mother has some I could try if I got a sample of wheat starch.  The baking powder part combined with yeast and non-dairy liquid creamer (warmed) also sounds interesting to me. :-\  I also could see if wheat starch provides a delicate texture, flavor and light color like ADM says.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-Wheat-and-Starch-Gluten-Sheet.pdf  I guess if I contact ADM about a sample I would request a sample of Edigel 201 wheat starch. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Starches/Pages/default.aspx  Is that correct?  And no, I don't want a 50 lb. Of wheat starch though.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma,

My thinking is that if you want Product A to look and taste like Product B, the best starting point is to try to recreate Product B, especially when you know the ingredients that are used to make Product B. So, in this case, I would wait for the McCormick product to see if that product does the trick when combined with the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine spread and some garlic powder. If that combination doesn't prove satisfactory, then I would have to rethink the whole exercise to see if there is any point in proceeding. If you get the McCormick product, you might post your results at the main PJ thread where you left off to try the non-clones of the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I think what you posted is right about trying to clone a PJ Garlic sauce.  I will call McCormick again today, because I have not gotten a call back from them as of today. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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I might contact ADM to see if I can get a sample of the wheat starch to play around with.  On the CamBrooke Foods website and on other places on the web there is an interesting pizza dough. http://www.cambrookefoods.com/recipes_and_tips/recipe_detail.php?id=15 I don't use Metamucil, but my mother has some I could try if I got a sample of wheat starch.  The baking powder part combined with yeast and non-dairy liquid creamer (warmed) also sounds interesting to me. :-\  I also could see if wheat starch provides a delicate texture, flavor and light color like ADM says.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-Wheat-and-Starch-Gluten-Sheet.pdf  I guess if I contact ADM about a sample I would request a sample of Edigel 201 wheat starch. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Starches/Pages/default.aspx  Is that correct?  And no, I don't want a 50 lb. Of wheat starch though.
Norma,

The recipe you cited appears at several places on the Internet. I saw it when I did my initial search but hesitated to mention it to you for fear that you would want to try it. But trying it is actually a good idea since it will tell you what a pizza is like when its principal component is starch, with little protein or gluten. It is a high carb product with a lot of dietary fiber, low in fat and sodium and no cholesterol, so it is perhaps a healthy product too.

As for the ADM wheat product to request, I agree with your choice. If you order a sample online, you might want to mention the application (pizza dough) in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

The recipe you cited appears at several places on the Internet. I saw it when I did my initial search but hesitated to mention it to you for fear that you would want to try it. But trying it is actually a good idea since it will tell you what a pizza is like when its principal component is starch, with little protein or gluten. It is a high carb product with a lot of dietary fiber, low in fat and sodium and no cholesterol, so it is perhaps a healthy product too.

As for the ADM wheat product to request, I agree with your choice. If you order a sample online, you might want to mention the application (pizza dough) in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Peter

Peter,

When I searched some about wheat starch I saw different places that cited that recipe.  I like the one at http://pkuawareness.com/2012/06/21/wheat-starch-pizza-dough/  Since it said it is great for breadsticks, bagels, and soft pretzels I thought that was right up my alley.  The chemical leavening system in combination with yeast also interests me and has since the Sukie pizzas.  I never could understand those darn chemical leavening systems though. 

Good to hear it might be a healthy pizza too. 

Thanks for telling me that you agree with my choice.  I will mention the application for pizza dough in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

One of the reasons, maybe even the main one, that I prepare detailed responses is to have a record to refer back to if necessary somewhere down the line. Usually, upon rereading my older posts, the subject matter comes back to me fairly quickly.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

One of the reasons, maybe even the main one, that I prepare detailed responses is to have a record to refer back to if necessary somewhere down the line. Usually, upon rereading my older posts, the subject matter comes back to me fairly quickly.

Peter

Peter,

I know you always prepare detailed responses so you have a record to refer back to if necessary.  You do retain what you posted very well.  I can only wish my brain was half as smart as your is.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I had talked to the salesperson at Hometown Provisions, Inc. on Monday about the case of garlic dipping sauce in the small containers they listed in their product catalog.  She said she would have to get back to me about the brand of that product.  I found out today that the product Hometown Provisions, Inc. carries is the Grandioso garlic butter replacement, but was told that right now they are out of that product until sometime next week. http://www.venturafoods.com/FS_ProductPortfolioProds.cfm?c=7&s=21&s2=61   She told me today that they usually carry that product and have it in stock, but had a higher then average amount of cases that were purchased last week. 

I also called McCormick again and another lady called me back right away after I left a message.  She said she didn't know what happened to my sample of the buttery flavoring, but would send me the Nutrition Fact sheet and also would see about why my sample wasn't sent out yet.  I then received an email from the other lady and she said I should have my sample early next week.

I called ADM and the man that I was directed to said they don't send samples of the EdigelTM 201 Wheat Starch and he doesn't even know if they produce that product anymore.  He said only large food processing companies purchase the wheat starch in pallet amounts and that is why they don't give any samples of any wheat starches. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

The Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.

It is interesting that you got a Nutrition Facts sheet for the McCormick product since the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20 says that the product has no significant nutritional value.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

The Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.

It is interesting that you got a Nutrition Facts sheet for the McCormick product since the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20 says that the product has no significant nutritional value.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall that the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.  I have to find out the price for a case of Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce.  I have to look, but I think Jon said to add something else to the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce.  If a case of the Grandioso product is cheap enough I might not have to make a garlic sauce each week if the PJ breadsticks turn out okay in my deck oven.

Since I got a Nutritional Fact sheet for the McCormick product how does it stack up when I try it?

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Peter,

I did request a sample of Fibersym« RW from MGP http://www.mgpingredients.com/search/?keywords=Fibersym%C2%AE+RW I hope that was a good choice to request.  More requests can be made though.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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I did recall that the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.  I have to find out the price for a case of Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce.  I have to look, but I think Jon said to add something else to the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce.  If a case of the Grandioso product is cheap enough I might not have to make a garlic sauce each week if the PJ breadsticks turn out okay in my deck oven.

Since I got a Nutritional Fact sheet for the McCormick product how does it stack up when I try it?
Norma,

Jon said to use margarine with the Grandioso product, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258575.html#msg258575 .

I'm not sure I understand your question about the McCormick product. Can you expand upon your question?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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I did request a sample of Fibersym« RW from MGP http://www.mgpingredients.com/search/?keywords=Fibersym%C2%AE+RW I hope that was a good choice to request.  More requests can be made though.
Norma,

I believe that what you have requested is not the type of wheat starch that PJ uses. What you have ordered is a "resistant starch". As such, it is a starch that is high in dietary fiber and frequently used to increase the dietary fiber of foods to which it is added. I researched resistant starches a while back when I was trying to determine whether Home Run Inn was using such a product to boost the dietary fiber of its pizzas. Since HRI did not specify that it used resistant starches, as is required by the FDA, I concluded that HRI was not using such a product.

Peter

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Norma,

Jon said to use margarine with the Grandioso product, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258575.html#msg258575 .

I'm not sure I understand your question about the McCormick product. Can you expand upon your question?

Peter

Peter,

I did search after I last posted and saw that post by Jon.  Thanks for referencing the link, so anyone can see what Jon said.

What I meant by my question was how much of the McCormick product do you think would be need to be added to the Parkay Squeeze when I receive the sample.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma,

I believe that what you have requested is not the type of wheat starch that PJ uses. What you have ordered is a "resistant starch". As such, it is a starch that is high in dietary fiber and frequently used to increase the dietary fiber of foods to which it is added. I researched resistant starches a while back when I was trying to determine whether Home Run Inn was using such a product to boost the dietary fiber of its pizzas. Since HRI did not specify that it used resistant starches, as is required by the FDA, I concluded that HRI was not using such a product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you believe what I requested is not the type of wheat starch PJ uses.  I did fill out a part after I requested the product on how I wanted to make the cheesesticks tender and other things.  They also have other wheat starch products that can be requested, but I am not sure if any one them are the kind of wheat starch that PJ uses. 

Thanks also for explaining what I have requested is a resistant starch and explaining what a resistant starch does.  I guess there are too many wheat starches for me to understand them all.   

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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What I meant by my question was how much of the McCormick product do you think would be need to be added to the Parkay Squeeze when I receive the sample.
Norma,

If you go to Reply 492 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041 , you will see the ingredients lists for the current version of the PJ Garlic sauce and also for the Parkay Squeeze product. At this point, all we know is that the PJ Garlic sauce contains less than 2% natural & artificial flavor.  2% comes to 0.567 grams (28.35 x 2%).

From the McCormick's information you provided earlier today, it appears that the liquid in the 16 ounce (fluid) bottle weighs 16 ounces. There are 95 servings in the bottle. One serving is a teaspoon. So, if the above numbers are correct, a teaspoon of the McCormick product weighs (16 x 28.35)/95 = 4.78 grams. On that basis, the 0.567 figure mentioned above comes to 0.12 teaspoon, or a bit less than 1/8 teaspoon. However, that is the maximum amount of the butter flavoring. It could well be less. Also, the Parkay Squeeze product already contains some artificial flavor, which I believe is an artificial butter flavor. This means that you will have to start with small amounts of the McCormick product and test each addition to the Parkay Squeeze product until you think you have achieved the desired butter flavor profile. For your information, a teaspoon of the McCormick product is supposed to be equivalent to a tablespoon of butter. An ancillary attribute of the McCormick product is that it contains lactic acid. That is a flavor component of the PJ Garlic sauce. The Parkay Squeeze product does not contain lactic acid.

Since there is also less than 2% dehydrated garlic (garlic powder), you will have to go through a similar exercise to determine how much garlic powder is needed to achieve the desired garlic flavor profile.

All of the other ingredients in both the PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze products are present in very small quantities. So, these will be untouched. The bulk of the weight of both products is in the oils, the water and the salt.

Once you have the McCormick product in hand, we can do some more analysis. On the plus side is the fact that a one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce and a one ounce sample of the Parkay Squeeze product have similar caloric values and Total Fats and Saturated Fats values. And no Trans Fats. The water and Sodium contents of the two products might be different, so some adjustment to those items may be necessary.

Peter

« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 10:53:04 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

If you go to Reply 492 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041 , you will see the ingredients lists for the current version of the PJ Garlic sauce and also for the Parkay Squeeze product. At this point, all we know is that the PJ Garlic sauce contains less than 2% natural & artificial flavor.  2% comes to 0.567 grams (28.35 x 2%).

From the McCormick's information you provided earlier today, it appears that the liquid in the 16 ounce (fluid) bottle weighs 16 ounces. There are 95 servings in the bottle. One serving is a teaspoon. So, if the above numbers are correct, a teaspoon of the McCormick product weighs (16 x 28.35)/95 = 4.78 grams. On that basis, the 0.567 figure mentioned above comes to 0.12 teaspoon, or a bit less than 1/8 teaspoon. However, that is the maximum amount of the butter flavoring. It could well be less. Also, the Parkay Squeeze product already contains some artificial flavor, which I believe is an artificial butter flavor. This means that you will have to start with small amounts of the McCormick product and test each addition to the Parkay Squeeze product until you think you have achieved the desired butter flavor profile. For your information, a teaspoon of the McCormick product is supposed to be equivalent to a tablespoon of butter. An ancillary attribute of the McCormick product is that it contains lactic acid. That is a flavor component of the PJ Garlic sauce. The Parkay Squeeze product does not contain lactic acid.

Since there is also less than 2% dehydrated garlic (garlic powder), you will have to go through a similar exercise to determine how much garlic powder is needed to achieve the desired garlic flavor profile.

All of the other ingredients in both the PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze products are present in very small quantities. So, these will be untouched. The bulk of the weight of both products is in the oils, the water and the salt.

Once you have the McCormick product in hand, we can do some more analysis. On the plus side is the fact that a one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce and a one ounce sample of the Parkay Squeeze product have similar caloric values and Total Fats and Saturated Fats values. And no Trans Fats. The water and Sodium contents of the two products might be different, so some adjustment to those items may be necessary.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing reply 492 so I could see the ingredients lists for the current PJ Garlic sauce and the Parkay Squeeze product.  I printed out those ingredients so I can look at them more.  I see that the PJ Garlic sauces contains less than 2% natural & artificial flavor.  Thanks also for explaining that you think that the Parkay Squeeze artificial' flavor is a butter flavor.  I appreciate you told me that a teaspoon of the McCormick product is supposed to be equivalent to a tablespoon of butter. 

I will wait until I have the sample of the McCormick product to ask more questions.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Peter,

I went to PJ's last evening while on other errands and purchased 5 more of the PJ Garlic sauces.  I decided to weight in volume at home since it might take too long to do at market.

As I mentioned before it seemed like most of the PJ Garlic sauces I purchased before were in different states of being fluid and some were uncongealed.  The lastest PJ Garlic I opened for weighing in volume was very homogenized.  It can be seen on the one photo how it looked.

I tried to be as accurate as possible in taking out the PJ Garlic sauce and using a knife to scrape any extra sauce off on my regular measuring spoons.  Of course there was a small amount left in the container and on my measuring spoons, regular table spoon and knife.  When I was finished weighing in volume there was 7 ╝ teaspoons of the PJ Garlic sauce. 

I then put the plastic PJ container and my container with the PJ Garlic sauce in it in the microwave for 12 seconds to make it liquid.  I then weighed again in the PJ container and it weighed 0.899 oz., so I know I lost a little of the PJ Garlic sauce in the process. 

What I found that I thought was interesting is after the PJ Garlic sauce is liquid that it doesn't become solid at all again.  I had placed it in the fridge overnight and it is still liquid this morning.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I decided to do another experiment on trying to make a PJ Garlic sauce with the Parkay Squeeze product after I did the volume measurement.

I tried the Butter Buds All Natural Butter Flavored mix that water is added.  I decided to try to add less water than what is called for.  I used 2 oz. of hot water instead of 4 oz. of hot water.  When I tasted the mixture it tasted very buttery.  I then added the soybean oil, Butter Buds and water mixture as one and the Shurfine garlic powder.  Where I made a mistake is I had my scaled on gr instead of g.  I think by that time I had a little to much wine to drink, or either the g and gr are really small on my scale and hard to see.  The garlic taste was too strong.  I think I might repeat this experiment again today if I find time.  The Butter Buds All Natural Butter Flavored mix is a lot finer than the other Butter Buds I tried before.  I wonder how much less water I can use than the 2 oz.

Norma
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