Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 14139 times)

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Offline norma427

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Made another cheesestick dough this morning using the blend of the Occident flour and All Trumps flour.  The dough felt nice.  The dough ball weighed 14.4 ounces.   

I also tried the other experiment of making a garlic sauce.  I used a packet of the Butter Buds All Natural Butter Flavored Mix and added the mix to 1 oz. of hot water.  I also used 2 ounces of Parkay Squeeze, 2 grams of soybean oil, 6 grams of water and 1.20 grams of Shurfine garlic powder.  The taste is good and I thought it might be too salty, but it wasn't.  I don't know now if I am going to use my own garlic sauce tomorrow, or use PJ Garlic Sauce.  I guess I am supposed to try 1.5 ounces of garlic sauce and 3 ounces of part-skim mozzarella for the cheesesticks. 

Do I have to take the baked weight of the cheesesticks tomorrow.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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I guess I am supposed to try 1.5 ounces of garlic sauce and 3 ounces of part-skim mozzarella for the cheesesticks. 

Do I have to take the baked weight of the cheesesticks tomorrow?
Norma,

If you don't mind weighing the baked cheesestick pizza, that number might tell us whether the amounts of the ingredients are in line with the PJ Nutrition Facts.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

If you don't mind weighing the baked cheesestick pizza, that number might tell us whether the amounts of the ingredients are in line with the PJ Nutrition Facts.

Peter

Peter,

I don't mind.  I just have to remember to take my scale over because I don't want to get my bigger scale out.  I guess I should use the PJ Garlic sauce then too, because my garlic sauce is not in line with the PJ Nutrition Facts.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

If you'd like to use your clone garlic sauce, you should feel free to do so. After all, that is why you made it. I don't think that the final weight number will be thrown off by much if you use the clone garlic sauce. What will be more important than the weight is how the clone garlic sauce tastes, both on the clone cheesesticks and on the side for dipping purposes.

Peter

Offline norma427

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The attempt at the PJ pizza cheesesticks today was the best one so far.  I used the dustinator flour, the dough ball opened easily, I remembered to dock the skin, the cheesesticks baked okay, and my garlic sauce and PJ Garlic sauce tasted the same.  Steve said he liked my garlic sauce better than the PJ garlic sauce.  They both looked like the same color.  I did use the PJ Garlic sauce on the cheesesticks though and just use my garlic sauce and what was left of the PJ Garlic sauce for dipping.  I used 1.5 ounces of PJ Garlic sauce and 3 ounces of the John Martin LMPS mozzarella.  The baked pizza cheesesticks right out of the oven weighed 475 grams.  We did weigh in oz., but that photo didn't turn out right in what it showed, because it was blurry when I got home.  I did write down the weight in oz., but left that paper at market and since it was so hot today at market didn't turn around to go back on the way home to get that paper. 

The only problem was the pizza cheesesticks started on the top deck to get the bottom brown first without a screen.  When the bottom seemed brown enough, I put the regular screen under the cheesesticks pizza, but then until the sides started browning the top wasn't browning enough.  The cheesestick pizza was then moved to the bottom deck on the regular screen until the cheese seemed to brown enough.

My taste testers also really liked the attempt today at the cheesesticks and both garlic dipping sauces.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

You nailed it on the numbers. According to the PJ Nutrition Facts, an order of their Cheesesticks weighs 476 grams. Your clone of the PJ Cheesesticks weighed 475 grams, or a difference of only one gram. FYI, this time, the weight loss during baking was about 11.2%. The previous numbers were around 12% and 13%. 

Recently, I spent some time researching soft margarine products. As you know from Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59232.html#msg59232 , I have long believed that PJ was using a soft margarine product with some kind of butter flavor and a garlic component. When I composed Reply 22, back in 2008, I was aware of the "butter buds" product but not the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine blend. But, then again, at the time I did not look at over a hundred different margarine products in several supermarkets as I did recently. Also, I had not thoroughly analyzed the PJ Nutrition Facts For the PJ Garlic sauce to understand its nutrient components and how they interrelated with the rest of the items that made up the PJ Cheesesticks.

From my recent research, I am convinced that PJ uses a basic and inexpensive soft margarine spread as the core ingredient for their Garlic sauce and add butter and garlic flavors to create the final product.

It will be interesting to know if your clone of the PJ Garlic sauce costs more on a comparable weight basis than the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:22:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

You nailed it on the numbers. According to the PJ Nutrition Facts, an order of their Cheesesticks weighs 476 grams. Your clone of the PJ Cheesesticks weighed 475 grams, or a difference of only one gram. FYI, this time, the weight loss during baking was about 11.2%. The previous numbers were around 12% and 13%. 

Recently, I spent some time researching soft margarine products. As you know from Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59232.html#msg59232 , I have long believed that PJ was using a soft margarine product with some kind of butter flavor and a garlic component. When I composed Reply 22, back in 2008, I was aware of the "butter buds" product but not the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine blend. But, then again, at the time I did not look at over a hundred different margarine products in several supermarkets as I did recently. Also, I had not thoroughly analyzed the PJ Nutrition Facts For the PJ Garlic sauce to understand its nutrient components and how they interrelated with the rest of the items that made up the PJ Cheesesticks.

From my recent research, I am convinced that PJ uses a basic and inexpensive soft margarine spread as the core ingredient for their Garlic sauce and add butter and garlic flavors to create the final product.

It will be interesting to know if your clone of the PJ Garlic sauce costs more on a comparable weight basis than the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter


Peter,

It is good to hear I almost nailed it on the numbers this time.  Thanks for telling me that the PJ Cheesesticks weigh 475 grams according to the PJ Nutrition Facts.  I wonder why my baking weight loss during baking was so different this time.

I know you have spent a lot of time researching soft margarine products.  I didn't know you have long believed that PJ was using a soft margarine product with some kind of butter flavor and a garlic component.  A hundred different margarine products is a lot to look at and I sure wouldn't be able to analyze what was in all of them like you can. 

I think you know me well enough that I won't be able to figure out if what I did with the garlic sauce costs more on a comparable weight than the PJ Garlic sauce, but I could tell you how much each product was that I used in the PJ clone.  I really don't think what I did was a clone though because the Nutrition Facts would not line up.  I just went by taste and used the Parkay Squeeze product that you thought would be good to try.

I am anxious to get the other samples to see what can be achieved with them.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

You are perhaps correct that the garlic sauce you made is not a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce. The Parkay Squeeze product comes fairly close nutritionally to the PJ Garlic sauce but the Butter Buds mix adds things like maltrodextrine, guar gum and baking soda (http://www.shopwell.com/butter-buds-butter-flavored-mix/seasonings/p/4480000401), none of which are in the PJ Garlic sauce.

As for the cost matter, the two most costly ingredients in the PJ garlic sauce alternative that you came up with are the Butter Buds mix and the Parkay Squeeze product. As I understand it, from what you previously posted at Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260280.html#msg260280, you paid $2.29 for eight 1/2-ounce packets of the Butter Buds butter flavored mix. The last time I checked at my local supermarket, the Parkay Squeeze product sells for $1.99 for a 12-ounce (fluid) container. A while back in this thread, at Reply 80 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg265883.html#msg265883, you reported that you used a packet of the Butter Buds All Natural Butter Flavored Mix to which you added 1 oz. of hot water. You also reported that you used 2 ounces of Parkay Squeeze, 2 grams of soybean oil, 6 grams of water and 1.20 grams of Shurfine garlic powder. By my calculation, the total weight of your PJ alternative garlic sauce was 108.43 grams, or 3.83 ounces. As for the total cost of that garlic sauce, my numbers say about 48 cents. Almost all of that cost is in the Butter Buds mix and the Parkay Squeeze product. If my math is correct, the cost for 1 1/2 ounces of your garlic sauce comes to about 18.8 cents. The corresponding cost for 1 1/2 ounces of the PJ Garlic sauce is about $0.56. So, your garlic sauce is considerably cheaper than the PJ Garlic sauce (ignoring all associated labor costs).

I did not view the weight loss as being far out of line, given that you did not use the identical bake protocol in your deck oven at market for your prior efforts. Once you are able to come up with a bake protocol that meets your needs, then the weight loss numbers might be more consistent. Even then, there can be normal variations because of variations in the dough ball weight, the bake, the water content of the ingredients and the garlic sauce, etc.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

You are perhaps correct that the garlic sauce you made is not a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce. The Parkay Squeeze product comes fairly close nutritionally to the PJ Garlic sauce but the Butter Buds mix adds things like maltrodextrine, guar gum and baking soda (http://www.shopwell.com/butter-buds-butter-flavored-mix/seasonings/p/4480000401), none of which are in the PJ Garlic sauce.

As for the cost matter, the two most costly ingredients in the PJ garlic sauce alternative that you came up with are the Butter Buds mix and the Parkay Squeeze product. As I understand it, from what you previously posted at Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260280.html#msg260280, you paid $2.29 for eight 1/2-ounce packets of the Butter Buds butter flavored mix. The last time I checked at my local supermarket, the Parkay Squeeze product sells for $1.99 for a 12-ounce (fluid) container. A while back in this thread, at Reply 80 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg265883.html#msg265883, you reported that you used a packet of the Butter Buds All Natural Butter Flavored Mix to which you added 1 oz. of hot water. You also reported that you used 2 ounces of Parkay Squeeze, 2 grams of soybean oil, 6 grams of water and 1.20 grams of Shurfine garlic powder. By my calculation, the total weight of your PJ alternative garlic sauce was 108.43 grams, or 3.83 ounces. As for the total cost of that garlic sauce, my numbers say about 48 cents. Almost all of that cost is in the Butter Buds mix and the Parkay Squeeze product. If my math is correct, the cost for 1 1/2 ounces of your garlic sauce comes to about 18.8 cents. The corresponding cost for 1 1/2 ounces of the PJ Garlic sauce is about $0.56. So, your garlic sauce is considerably cheaper than the PJ Garlic sauce (ignoring all associated labor costs).

I did not view the weight loss as being far out of line, given that you did not use the identical bake protocol in your deck oven at market for your prior efforts. Once you are able to come up with a bake protocol that meets your needs, then the weight loss numbers might be more consistent. Even then, there can be normal variations because of variations in the dough ball weight, the bake, the water content of the ingredients and the garlic sauce, etc.

Peter


I didn't read the ingredient list for the Butter Buds mix, but I see from your link it adds other things that PF Garlic sauce doesn't contain.  It does make a pretty tasty garlic sauce though, even if it isn't a clone PJ Garlic sauce. 

I still have one of the specialty kits frozen of the Little Caesars Italian Cheese Bread Kit that my daughter purchased with the packets of Garlic Buttery Sauce.  http://www.pizzakit.com/fundraising-products/pk/279  If I recall right that Garlic Buttery Sauce tasted very similar to what PJ Garlic sauce tastes like.  Did you ever look at the Nutritional Facts, or ingredients in the Garlic Buttery Sauce for the packets that are in the Italian Cheese Bread Kit?

I did pay 2.29 for the eight ˝ ounce packets of the Butter Buds flavored mix.  Thanks for telling me what the cost of my garlic sauce was compared to what PJ Garlic sauce is.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

It would be very difficult to decipher the Nutrition Facts for the Little Caesars Italian Cheese Breads. There are just too many ingredients to isolate all of the nutrients.

As for the LC Garlic Buttery Sauce, I believe that it should have taste similarities with the PJ Garlic sauce. Note the comparison of the LC ingredients for their Garlic Butter Sauce at http://www.pizzakit.com/fundraising-products/pk/279 (click on Ingredients) wiith those at Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041 . There are some differences but they otherwise are very close. Both product are basically margarine products with butter and garlic flavorings.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 05:02:09 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

It would be very difficult to decipher the Nutrition Facts for the Little Caesars Italian Cheese Breads. There are just too many ingredients to isolate all of the nutrients.

As for the LC Garlic Buttery Sauce, I believe that it should have taste similarities with the PJ Garlic sauce. Note the comparison of the LC ingredients for their Garlic Butter Sauce at http://www.pizzakit.com/fundraising-products/pk/279 (click on Ingredients) wiith those at Reply 492 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260041.html#msg260041 . There are some differences but they otherwise are very close. Both product are basically margarine products with butter and garlic flavorings.

Peter


Peter,

I didn't mean to for you to decipher the Nutrition Facts for the Little Caesars Italian Cheese Breads.  I didn't see where the the Ingredients could be clicked on to see what they were in the LC Garlic Buttery Sauce.  I see now that both products are basically margarine products with butter and garlic flavorings.  Thanks for telling me that there are some differences, but they otherwise are very close.  I didn't think my taste buds were failing me yet, even though other things are. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I received the samples of regular Whirl and Garlic Whirl today delivered by UPS, in addition to a small container of Whirl in the regular mail.  The Nutrition Facts and Ingredient List were on the back of the bigger containers of Whirl products.  I didn't except to get so many samples of the Whirl products.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Thank you for posting the Nutrition Facts for the two Whirl products. They have certain similarities with margarine-based products but also several differences. For your information, the hydrolyzed protein and autolyzed yeast are flavor enhancers. Since the Whirl products do not contain water, which is present in all margarine products that I am aware of, it will be interesting to see if the consistency is similar to that of the PJ Garlic sauce. Without water, there is no need to have the mono- and diglyceride emulsifiers.

The Whirl products contain considerably more Total Fats and Saturated Fats than the PJ Garlic sauce, and also Trans Fats. The Trans Fats are due to the hydrogenation of the soybean oil. Most companies that want to keep the Trans Fats at about zero under FDA regulations usually limit the amounts of soybean oil to be hydrogenated and add soybean oil in non-hydrogenated form. The non-hydrogenated soybean oil makes the finished product more liquid.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:59:42 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Thank you for posting the Nutrition Facts for the two Whirl products. They have certain similarities with margarine-based products but also several differences. For your information, the hydrolyzed protein and autolyzed yeast are flavor enhancers. Since the Whirl products do not contain water, which is present in all margarine products that I am aware of, it will be interesting to see if the consistency is similar to that of the PJ Garlic sauce. Without water, there is no need to have the mono- and diglyceride emulsifiers.

The Whirl products contain considerably more Total Fats and Saturated Fats than the PJ Garlic sauce, and also Trans Fats. The Trans Fats are due to the hydrogenation of the soybean oil. Most companies that want to keep the Trans Fats at about zero under FDA regulations usually limit the amounts of soybean oil to be hydrogenated and add soybean oil in non-hydrogenated form. The non-hydrogenated soybean oil makes the finished product more liquid.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me the two Whirl products have certain similarities with margarine-based products but also several differences.  I didn't know that the hydrolyzed protein and autolyzed yeast are flavor enhancers.  I think I already know that neither of the Whirl products are as thick as the PJ Garlic sauce is by trying the one Whirl sample before on the MM thread.  I didn't open any of the Whirl products, but just by shaking the containers I can see they are fairly liquid, unless that was from being on the hot UPS truck.  I really won't know until tomorrow what the Whirl products will look like, but how am I going to make either of the Whirl products thicker.  Am I going to have to use the Parkey Squeeze product again?

Thanks for telling me the Whirl products contain considerably more Total Fats and Saturated Fats then the PJ Garlic sauce and explaining why. 

BYW, I saw this photo on PJ's facebook page today.  It said:  “Throwback Thursday! The first Papa John's restaurant opened in 1984. Where were you in 1984? Tell us!”  I didn't know that the first Papa John's restaurant looked like that, but maybe you did.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Let me think about how we might thicken the Whirl products if that is necessary. In the meantime, when you are ready you might try tasting both products to see if they taste anything like the PJ Garlic sauce. Of course, the Whirl product without the garlic will lack the garlic flavor but retain a butter flavor.

The first Papa John's was actually converted from a business called Mick's Lounge that was owned by John Schnatter's father. Mick's Lounge was not doing well. As the story goes, John sold his beloved Camaro to raise the money ($1600) to buy pizza making equipment for what was to become the first Papa John's. You can see what Mick's Lounge looked like before its conversion at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Micks_Lounge.jpg . The rest is history.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Let me think about how we might thicken the Whirl products if that is necessary. In the meantime, when you are ready you might try tasting both products to see if they taste anything like the PJ Garlic sauce. Of course, the Whirl product without the garlic will lack the garlic flavor but retain a butter flavor.

The first Papa John's was actually converted from a business called Mick's Lounge that was owned by John Schnatter's father. Mick's Lounge was not doing well. As the story goes, John sold his beloved Camaro to raise the money ($1600) to buy pizza making equipment for what was to become the first Papa John's. You can see what Mick's Lounge looked like before its conversion at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Micks_Lounge.jpg . The rest is history.

Peter


Peter,

I will taste both Whirl products tomorrow and also show photos of what they look like. 

I didn't know Papa John's was actually converted from a business called Mick's Lounge that was owned by John Schatter's father and wasn't doing well.  I do recall that John sold his beloved Chevrolet Camaro to raise the money to purchase the pizza making equipment he needed for the first Papa John's.  I also recall John spend a lot of money a few years ago to find his Camaro and buy it back.  I find that whole story interesting about how John started Papa John's.

Norma   
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Offline norma427

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I opened the two Whirl products this afternoon to see how thin the texture was and also to taste them.  The Whirl products texture is more liquid than the PJ Garlic sauce is.  The taste of the regular Whirl is buttery tasting and the Garlic Whirl is also buttery tasting, but has a more garlicky taste than the PJ Garlic sauce.   The container of the PJ Garlic sauce I opened today is starting to separate and it had the same use by date as my last PJ Garlic sauces did which is use by Feb 19, 2014.  The last batch of PJ Garlic sauce I had purchased with the PJ cheesesticks had a use by date in Jan 2014. 

What I thought was interesting when tasting all three of these sauces is that the PJ sauce now doesn't taste as buttery.  It now tastes more like a margarine product and the Whirl products are more buttery tasting.

Norma 
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I opened the two Whirl products this afternoon to see how thin the texture was and also to taste them.  The Whirl products texture is more liquid than the PJ Garlic sauce is.  The taste of the regular Whirl is buttery tasting and the Garlic Whirl is also buttery tasting, but has a more garlicky taste than the PJ Garlic sauce.   The container of the PJ Garlic sauce I opened today is starting to separate and it had the same use by date as my last PJ Garlic sauces did which is use by Feb 19, 2014.  The last batch of PJ Garlic sauce I had purchased with the PJ cheesesticks had a use by date in Jan 2014. 

What I thought was interesting when tasting all three of these sauces is that the PJ sauce now doesn't taste as buttery.  It now tastes more like a margarine product and the Whirl products are more buttery tasting.

Norma
Maybe try mixing the 2 together to tone the garlic?
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