Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 14645 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

On the matter of the amount of cheese, if you were to increase that amount by a half-ounce, you would still be within the limits if we assume a 13% weight loss during baking. However, with rounding of Nutrition Facts, you could go to 4 ounces and still be OK.

If you decide to repeat the Parkay Squeeze garlic sauce clone, you might omit the pinch of salt next time. I don't know which Butter Buds product you used, and in what amount, but a teaspoon (2 grams) of the Butter Buds Sprinkles contains 60mg of Sodium (http://www.butterbuds.com/nutritionfacts/sprinkles.html). A bit over a teaspoon of the Buds Sprinkles would put you within earshot of the PJ Nutrition Facts for Sodium for the PJ Garlic sauce.

I don't have a good explanation for the disparity in the two samples of the PJ Garlic sauce you examined. It may be that the two samples came from different lots or were made at different times or had different ages. Or maybe there is an inherent chemical instability in the underlying product itself. If I had to pick a reason, I think it would be the latter since the peel-off label on the mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce says to shake the product. That tells us that there must be some separation of the ingredients used to make the product. Even the container for the Parkay Squeeze product says to "shake well" (and refrigerate).

Sometime you might try using a pizza screen in lieu of the perforated disk. Neither was designed for deck oven use even though some pizza operators use them in their deck ovens. But, at this point, I would say that as between the screen and disk, the screen is perhaps the more commonly used in deck ovens.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

On the matter of the amount of cheese, if you were to increase that amount by a half-ounce, you would still be within the limits if we assume a 13% weight loss during baking. However, with rounding of Nutrition Facts, you could go to 4 ounces and still be OK.

If you decide to repeat the Parkay Squeeze garlic sauce clone, you might omit the pinch of salt next time. I don't know which Butter Buds product you used, and in what amount, but a teaspoon (2 grams) of the Butter Buds Sprinkles contains 60mg of Sodium (http://www.butterbuds.com/nutritionfacts/sprinkles.html). A bit over a teaspoon of the Buds Sprinkles would put you within earshot of the PJ Nutrition Facts for Sodium for the PJ Garlic sauce.

I don't have a good explanation for the disparity in the two samples of the PJ Garlic sauce you examined. It may be that the two samples came from different lots or were made at different times or had different ages. Or maybe there is an inherent chemical instability in the underlying product itself. If I had to pick a reason, I think it would be the latter since the peel-off label on the mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce says to shake the product. That tells us that there must be some separation of the ingredients used to make the product. Even the container for the Parkay Squeeze product says to "shake well" (and refrigerate).

Sometime you might try using a pizza screen in lieu of the perforated disk. Neither was designed for deck oven use even though some pizza operators use them in their deck ovens. But, at this point, I would say that as between the screen and disk, the screen is perhaps the more commonly used in deck ovens.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for letting me know that if I use 4 ounces of cheese that still would be okay.  I will try that amount next week. 

I did use the Butter Buds sprinkles and realized this morning when I looked at the ingredient list how much salt they had in them.  I will omit the pinch of regular table salt the next time and go with a little over 1 teaspoon of the Butter Bud sprinkles.  Thanks for telling the amount of the Butter Buds sprinkles that can be used.

Thanks also for explaining why you think they might be differences in the two PJ Garlic sauces.

I will try a pizza screen next week at market instead of the dark disk. 

Norma
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Norma,

Your number for your baked clone of the PJ Cheesesticks was very close to the weight number given in the PJ Nutrition Facts. Based on the numbers you mentioned for your unbaked clone, the unbaked clone weighed 14.25 (skin) + 3 (cheese)+ 1.5 (clone garlic sauce) = 18.75 ounces. The baked weight was 16.3 ounces. That compares with the 16.79 ounce number from the PJ Nutrition Facts, or a difference of only 0.49 ounces, or a bit less than a half-ounce. The weight loss from a percentage standpoint was about 13%. I wondered what that number would be. We don't know what the corresponding losses would be in one of the PJ conveyor ovens using either a screen or a disk but maybe the small amount of cheese on the skin and no toppings results in greater losses during baking. In any event, if you liked the results you achieved, the numbers suggest that you can increase the amount of cheese and/or the clone garlic sauce a bit and stay close to the PJ Nutrition Facts numbers. Alternatively, you can increase the dough weight a bit. Of course, you can alter the numbers any way you see fit to make the clone Cheesesticks even better, whether you decide to offer such a product at market or not.

Can you refresh my memory on what was in the clone garlic sauce that you used? Was it the I can't believe it isn't Butter clone or one made with the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread? Or maybe something else.

Also, did you like your clone Cheesesticks better than the ones you had recently from the PJ shop you visited? And did you come to any other conclusions?

Peter

Peter,

Isn't the missing weight from the .50oz of garlic sauce that Norma did not add?  She used 1.50oz garlic butter.  Papa uses 2oz.

Nate
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Offline Pete-zza

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Peter,

Isn't the missing weight from the .50oz of garlic sauce that Norma did not add?  She used 1.50oz garlic butter.  Papa uses 2oz.

Nate
Nate,

It could be. Can you tell me how you know that PJ is using two ounces of Garlic sauce? I don't recall seeing that anywhere.

Peter

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Nate,

It could be. Can you tell me how you know that PJ is using two ounces of Garlic sauce? I don't recall seeing that anywhere.

Peter


Reply #17.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.0.html
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Offline Pete-zza

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Nate,

You are referring to the post (Reply 17) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258240.html#msg258240

However, in the above post, Jon said that he believed that one of the little tubs was 2 ounces. They are actually one ounce (by weight). However, if we assume that 1.5 ounces of the PJ Garlic sauce is used for a small (10") skin, then by extrapolation a 12" skin might use 1.5 x 62/52 = 2.16 ounces. This answer presupposes that a quart of the PJ Garlic sauce weighs 32 ounces and that that amount of sauce can serve 22 Cheesesticks orders. That is 32/22 = 1.46 ounces per order. For a 12" skin, that works out to 2.10 ounces. If these numbers are correct, then, yes, Norma might have been a bit short on the garlic sauce. However, I wouldn't fall in love with those numbers just yet. There are too many differences between baking cheesesticks in a deck oven as opposed to a PJ conveyor oven. However, for now, using 2 ounces of garlic sauce is perhaps worth a try.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Peter,

I want to make another attempt at the PJ cheesesticks and the PJ garlic sauce at market on Tuesday.  I don't have enough of the Power Flour to do another test.  Do you have a combination of flours in mind for me to try?

I didn't receive my sample of Whirl or the McCormick's imitation butter flavor product for professionals.  I guess I have to wing the PJ garlic sauce attempt again.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Can you tell me what flours you have on hand, particularly unbromated flours?

Do you plan to follow-up on the Whirl and McCormick products?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Can you tell me what flours you have on hand, particularly unbromated flours?

Do you plan to follow-up on the Whirl and McCormick products?

Peter

Peter,

All I recall I have on hand as far as unbromated flours is Mondako flour and KABF and maybe a little KAAP.  I do have VWG and don't mind trying that if you think it might be an option.

I do plan on following up why I haven't received the samples this coming week.  With my brother visiting and then the Pizza Summit at Craig's home I was too busy to follow-up in the last two weeks.  I also have a lot of supplies to pick up tomorrow and go to market, so I don't think I will find time to follow-up then.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Can you tell me how much Power flour you have left, and also what bromated flours you have on hand?

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

Can you tell me how much Power flour you have left, and also what bromated flours you have on hand?

Peter

Peter,

I weighed the Power flour I have left and it is only 90 grams.  I have to go pick up 50 lb. bags of All Trumps and the Occident flour tomorrow.  They are the only bromated flours I recall that I will have on hand.  I also can purchase another flour like Better for Bread at the supermarket if you think that would work better.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

As you may recall, I have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that I believe Papa Johnís has been using. Since I have not discussed how I came up with this range before, this is perhaps as good a place as any to discuss this matter.

If you go to Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046, you will see the most current ingredients list for Papa Johnís dough. You will also see that the first three ingredients are wheat flour (unbleached), malted barley flour, and wheat starch. Wheat starch is a wheat-derived product that is often used for its blending qualities. Also, when used in a baked goods product, it will provide added tenderness to that product. But one of the most important things to know about wheat starch is that it is about 86-88% carbohydrates (see the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx). What that means is that if a portion of a given fixed sample (e.g., a 100-gram sample) of flour is replaced by wheat starch, that will dilute the protein content of the flour and reduce its protein content. I believe that PJ starts out with a fairly high protein, high-gluten flour and replaces part of it with wheat starch to lower the protein content, and at the same time help with the mixing of the dough and add a bit more tenderness to the finished crust.

From a quantitative standpoint, the amount of wheat starch need not be great. Since federal law (see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=137.105) says that if barley malted flour is to be used it cannot exceed 0.75%, and since the wheat starch is listed next to the malted barley flour, that means that the amount of wheat starch will be less than 0.75%. I donít know what specific base flour PJ is using or the amount of malted barley flour it is using but if we assume a base flour with a protein content of around 14%, which is the type of hard wheat flour that ConAgra mills in its Decatur, Alabama mill, malted barley flour at 0.75%, and wheat starch at just below 0.75%, the effect of the wheat starch will be to reduce the protein content of the blend to around 13.4-13.6%. Even if we are off by a fraction of a percent, I do not think the difference will be noticeable in the finished product.

With the above as background, the best flour of the flours you mentioned to use for the PJ clone Cheesesticks is the Power flour. That flour falls within the above protein range and it is unbromated. Unfortunately, you do not have enough of that flour for the dough formulation (reproduced below) that you will be using. I could perhaps come up with a three-flour blend that would use up your remaining Power flour, but I would prefer to avoid the added layer of math complexity to do that, even if it means having to use a bromated flour. All of the other unbromated flours you mentioned (Mondako, KABF, KAAP and Better for Bread) are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten. I would also like to avoid that approach at this point. Instead, I would rather use the All Trumps flour to raise the protein content of such flours. And, likewise for the bromated Occident flour.

Having played around with the flours that you have or will soon have, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, here are some possible flour blends:

63.16 grams (2.23 ounces) Mondako (11.9% protein) and 178.95 grams (6.31 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

58.11 grams (2.05 ounces) KABF (11.7% protein) and 184 grams (6.49 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

72.63 grams (2.56 ounces) Occident (12.2% protein) and 169.48 grams (5.98 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

All of the above blends should have a final protein content of 13.6%. Since you have worked extensively with the above flours and know how they behave and perform, I will leave to you to decide which of the blends to use for your next experiment. It is also possible to come up with other blends if you so wish.

Here is the recommended dough formulation:
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.45%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.79%):
242.11 g  |  8.54 oz | 0.53 lbs
135.58 g  |  4.78 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
13.44 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.96 tsp | 0.99 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
411.08 g | 14.5 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: The dough ball weight is the same as used for a 12" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12821; no bowl residue compensation

For the clone garlic sauce you plan to use, you should use 2 ounces, by weight, on the 12Ē skin, as was discussed earlier in this thread.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:56:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

As you may recall, I have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that I believe Papa Johnís has been using. Since I have not discussed how I came up with this range before, this is perhaps as good a place as any to discuss this matter.

If you go to Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, you will see the most current ingredients list for Papa Johnís dough. You will also see that the first three ingredients are wheat flour (unbleached), malted barley flour, and wheat starch. Wheat starch is a wheat-derived product that is often used for its blending qualities. Also, when used in a baked goods product, it will provide added tenderness to that product. But one of the most important things to know about wheat starch is that it is about 86-88% carbohydrates (see the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx). What that means is that if a portion of a given fixed sample (e.g., a 100-gram sample) of flour is replaced by wheat starch, that will dilute the protein content of the flour and reduce its protein content. I believe that PJ starts out with a fairly high protein, high-gluten flour and replaces part of it with wheat starch to lower the protein content, and at the same time help with the mixing of the dough and add a bit more tenderness to the finished crust.

From a quantitative standpoint, the amount of wheat starch need not be great. Since federal law (see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=137.105) says that if barley malted flour is to be used it cannot exceed 0.75%, and since the wheat starch is listed next to the malted barley flour, that means that the amount of wheat starch will be less than 0.75%. I donít know what specific base flour PJ is using or the amount of malted barley flour it is using but if we assume a base flour with a protein content of around 14-14.2%, which is the type of hard wheat flour that ConAgra mills in its Decatur, Alabama mill, malted barley flour at 0.75%, and wheat starch at just below 0.75%, the effect of the wheat starch will be to reduce the protein content of the blend to around 13.4-13.6%. Even if we are off by a fraction of a percent, I do not think the difference will be noticeable in the finished product.

With the above as background, the best flour of the flours you mentioned to use for the PJ clone Cheesesticks is the Power flour. That flour falls within the above protein range and it is unbromated. Unfortunately, you do not have enough of that flour for the dough formulation (reproduced below) that you will be using. I could perhaps come up with a three-flour blend that would use up your remaining Power flour, but I would prefer to avoid the added layer of math complexity to do that, even if it means having to use a bromated flour. All of the other unbromated flours you mentioned (Mondako, KABF, KAAP and Better for Bread) are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten. I would also like to avoid that approach at this point. Instead, I would rather use the All Trumps flour to raise the protein content of such flours. And, likewise for the bromated Occident flour.

Having played around with the flours that you have or will soon have, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, here are some possible flour blends:

63.16 grams (2.23 ounces) Mondako (11.9% protein) and 178.95 grams (6.31 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

58.11 grams (2.05 ounces) KABF (11.7% protein) and 184 grams (6.49 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

72.63 grams (2.56 ounces) Occident (12.2% protein) and 169.48 grams (5.98 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

All of the above blends should have a final protein content of 13.6%. Since you have worked extensively with the above flours and know how they behave and perform, I will leave to you to decide which of the blends to use for your next experiment. It is also possible to come up with other blends if you so wish.

Here is the recommended dough formulation:
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.45%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.79%):
242.11 g  |  8.54 oz | 0.53 lbs
135.58 g  |  4.78 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
13.44 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.96 tsp | 0.99 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
411.08 g | 14.5 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: The dough ball weight is the same as used for a 12" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12821; no bowl residue compensation

For the clone garlic sauce you plan to use, you should use 2 ounces, by weight, on the 12Ē skin, as was discussed earlier in this thread.

Peter


Peter,

I do recall that you have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that you believe Papa John's has been using. 

Your link for 493 took me to reply 480, but that is okay because I can find reply 493.  I didn't know what wheat starch was before.  Thanks for explaining what it does.  I didn't know wheat starch could be purchased by anyone either.  Learning about wheat starch is interesting because I thought before that the more tender crust of PJ's pizza was from the high levels of soybean oil and sugar in the formulation. 

Thanks for also telling me that Mondako, KABF, KAAP and the Better for Bread flours are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten.  That is what I thought. 

Thanks for using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator for some possible flour blends.  I think I will try out the KABF and the All Trumps blend first to see what happens. 

I still have two containers of PJ's special garlic sauce, but I will need to try to make a garlic sauce myself for dipping the cheesesticks if they turn out okay.  Do you want me take the same approach as I took before?  Maybe I can do a little bit of experimenting over the weekend with trying to make my own garlic sauce.

I did call about the butter flavoring this morning, but they have limited hours due to the 4th of July, but I did leave a message.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Thank you for catching the link problem with Reply 493. I composed the post in Word because of its complexity, and I tested the link in the Preview mode to be sure it worked, but somehow a comma got in front of a tag. I have corrected the link.

I agree that wheat starch is an interesting ingredient. And it took me a while to note its significance. What is nice about wheat starch is that it is a fairly pure and neutral product. It is mostly carbohydrates as I mentioned but it has almost no fat, no sugars, no dietary fiber, almost no vitamins or minerals, and minuscule amounts of sodium and protein. The Nutrition Facts do not indicate water content, so I assume that the difference between 86-88% and 100% is largely water. For our purposes, I looked for flours that are in the desired protein range that do not have wheat starch as an ingredient.

I believe that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil, as you noted. The wheat starch quantity would supplement that but not materially. Maybe some day we will learn exactly why PJ uses it.

As for your garlic clone sauce, you should use your best judgment based on the results of your last experiment. However, if you don't mind, when you decide to use one of the PJ Garlic sauce mini-tubs, would you mind converting the contents of the mini-tub to a volume measurement, using standard measuring spoons? And if you can weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinsed out, that would also be helpful. These measurements might confirm some our numbers and help us zero in more closely on how much Garlic sauce PJ uses to make its Cheesesticks.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Thank you for catching the link problem with Reply 493. I composed the post in Word because of its complexity, and I tested the link in the Preview mode to be sure it worked, but somehow a comma got in front of a tag. I have corrected the link.

I agree that wheat starch is an interesting ingredient. And it took me a while to note its significance. What is nice about wheat starch is that it is a fairly pure and neutral product. It is mostly carbohydrates as I mentioned but it has almost no fat, no sugars, no dietary fiber, almost no vitamins or minerals, and minuscule amounts of sodium and protein. The Nutrition Facts do not indicate water content, so I assume that the difference between 86-88% and 100% is largely water. For our purposes, I looked for flours that are in the desired protein range that do not have wheat starch as an ingredient.

I believe that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil, as you noted. The wheat starch quantity would supplement that but not materially. Maybe some day we will learn exactly why PJ uses it.

As for your garlic clone sauce, you should use your best judgment based on the results of your last experiment. However, if you don't mind, when you decide to use one of the PJ Garlic sauce mini-tubs, would you mind converting the contents of the mini-tub to a volume measurement, using standard measuring spoons? And if you can weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinsed out, that would also be helpful. These measurements might confirm some our numbers and help us zero in more closely on how much Garlic sauce PJ uses to make its Cheesesticks.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me more about wheat starch.  Did you ever notice any other pizzerias that use a proprietary blend of flour that also have wheat starch as an ingredient?  Maybe you did before, but I might have missed it.

Thanks for telling me that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil.  How would we ever find out exactly why PJ uses wheat starch? 

I will convert one of the PJ Garlic Sauce mini-tubs to a volume measurements using standard measuring spoons.  I also will weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinse out. 

I was at the webrestaurant store today to pick some things up and looked around to see if I could find any butter alternatives maybe for a buttery garlic sauce for market if I can get the PJ clone cheesesticks to bake right in my oven.  I saw a Admiration product called Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.  I took some photos of the Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.  There are 3 gallons to a case and the price for one gallon might not be too bad.  I saw The Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor can be used to make sauces.  Do you think this product might work to make a PJ garlic sauce for market?  http://admirationfoods.com/pdf/pan_whiz.pdf   If not, do you think any of the other Admiration products at http://admirationfoods.com/margarine_butter_blends.php  might work?  The price of the case is on the one photo for the 3 gallons of Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Peter,

I just found the ingredient list and spec sheet for the Admiration Pan-Whiz if that will help more.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/nutrition/101PANWHIZ1G.pdf 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

To answer you question about the use of wheat starch, I have not done much in the way of research to see the extent of its use in pizza doughs. However, I vaguely recalled that Domino's was using wheat starch in one or more of its doughs. I found the Domino's ingredients list at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. From that list, you can see at page four that the dough for Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.

Thank you for the ingredients list for the Admiration Pan-Whiz product. As I was getting ready to ask you for that information, I saw that you were referencing the document containing that information. From the ingredients list, I see several components that are used or are similar to those used in the PJ Garlic sauce. I believe that the Admiration Pan-Whiz ingredients list means to recite that the soybean oil is partially hydrogenated but, apart from that, it is quite possible that Admiration is using much more soybean oil than PJ uses. I come to this conclusion because one ounce of the Pan-Whiz product contains 28 grams of Total Fat. A one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce contains 17 grams of Total Fat. Also, whereas the PJ Garlic sauce contains water, the Pan-Whiz product does not. That perhaps explains why the Pan-Whiz product does not contain emulsifiers such as mono- and diglycerides. Emulsifiers are required in the PJ Garlic sauce to bind the water and oils together.

Other similarities between the Pan-Whiz and PJ Garlic sauce include the use of salt, lecithin, butter flavor, color through the use of beta carotene, and a flavor protector. The only way to know how effective the Pan-Whiz product is as sauce for cheesesticks is to give it a try. However, if the objective is to try to morph the Pan-Whiz product into a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, I believe that there are better ways of doing it. But since you started this thread to come up with a non-clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, you are free to exercise discretion as to the use of the Pan-Whiz product in its own right as a sauce for cheesesticks.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

To answer you question about the use of wheat starch, I have not done much in the way of research to see the extent of its use in pizza doughs. However, I vaguely recalled that Domino's was using wheat starch in one or more of its doughs. I found the Domino's ingredients list at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. From that list, you can see at page four that the dough for Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.

Thank you for the ingredients list for the Admiration Pan-Whiz product. As I was getting ready to ask you for that information, I saw that you were referencing the document containing that information. From the ingredients list, I see several components that are used or are similar to those used in the PJ Garlic sauce. I believe that the Admiration Pan-Whiz ingredients list means to recite that the soybean oil is partially hydrogenated but, apart from that, it is quite possible that Admiration is using much more soybean oil than PJ uses. I come to this conclusion because one ounce of the Pan-Whiz product contains 28 grams of Total Fat. A one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce contains 17 grams of Total Fat. Also, whereas the PJ Garlic sauce contains water, the Pan-Whiz product does not. That perhaps explains why the Pan-Whiz product does not contain emulsifiers such as mono- and diglycerides. Emulsifiers are required in the PJ Garlic sauce to bind the water and oils together.

Other similarities between the Pan-Whiz and PJ Garlic sauce include the use of salt, lecithin, butter flavor, color through the use of beta carotene, and a flavor protector. The only way to know how effective the Pan-Whiz product is as sauce for cheesesticks is to give it a try. However, if the objective is to try to morph the Pan-Whiz product into a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, I believe that there are better ways of doing it. But since you started this thread to come up with a non-clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, you are free to exercise discretion as to the use of the Pan-Whiz product in its own right as a sauce for cheesesticks.

Peter


Peter,

I didn't mean to give you more work in searching about wheat starch in other pizza doughs.  I see Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.  Thanks for finding that.

Thanks for explaining the similarities and differences between the Pan-Whiz and the PJ Garlic sauce.  All I want to do is have a product that tastes like the PJ garlic sauce if I decide to sell the PJ cheesesticks at market.  What are your other ideas of ways to clone the PJ Garlic sauce.  Do you mean I should wait until I see if I get the sample products and proceed from there? 

I have one other question and maybe I should be posting this on your PJ thread.  If you want me to post it there I can.

Is this really a frozen Papa John's Pan Crust Cheese with the Nutrition Facts?  I didn't even know Papa John's made a Pan pizza.

http://www.hpisd.org/portals/0/docs/foodservice/pdfs/Entrees/CafePizzaPappaJohns_Cheese.pdf  Is J.O.Y. Foods Inc. a manufacturer and marketer of pizza products for schools or other foodservice industries?  I was just curious since the ingredients in the dough didn't look the same.

Norma

« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 06:12:41 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

As I see it, there are essentially two ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce. The first way, which is the premise of this thread, is to look at various products that contain butter-like flavors and combine them with sources of garlic flavor. The butter and garlic flavors can take many different forms. For example, they can be real flavors or artificial flavors, or even a combination of real and artificial flavors. Usually, there will be a carrier for such flavors, such as an oil (hydrogenated or not) along with other ingredients that are commonly found in margarine products. Since many of these products do not contain the same ingredients as the PJ Garlic sauce, they have to be tested to see if their flavors approximate the flavors of the PJ Garlic sauce. This can be a hit or miss proposition. Examples of products in this category include the Whirl product and the Pan-Whiz product. They have to be tested to see if they meet your needs.

The second way of creating a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce is to try to clone that sauce. That means trying to find and combine the same types of ingredients as are used in the PJ Garlic sauce and hope that you get the same flavors. This approach is the one that was described in the PJ clone thread, with an example being discussed at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260974.html#msg260974. For that specific example, the Parkay Squeeze margarine product, a butter flavor such as imparted by the McCormick product that you hope to receive, and dry garlic powder would be combined and tested to see if the final product tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce, or possibly even better.

There is no reason why both methods can't be tried, either serially or in parallel. It comes down to how much effort you are willing to devote to the project.

I am familiar with the J.O.Y. company and its products. I first became aware of that company in May of 2008. As best I can tell, Papa John's used J.O.Y. to extend its product line to include frozen pizzas sold to schools and other end users under the Papa John name. Those products are not included at the PJ website. And you will not find any Nutrition Facts for the frozen pizzas at the PJ website. I suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products. A few years after I first learned of J.O.Y., I tried to revisit the J.O.Y website only to find that the website no longer existed. Tonight I found a website link for J.O.Y. at http://www.texaswomenventures.com/portfolio-company-3-j-o-y-foods-inc-current.aspx, but when I clicked on the link, it was dead. I think you can stick a fork into this one.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 11:03:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

As I see it, there are essentially two ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce. The first way, which is the premise of this thread, is to look at various products that contain butter-like flavors and combine them with sources of garlic flavor. The butter and garlic flavors can take many different forms. For example, they can be real flavors or artificial flavors, or even a combination of real and artificial flavors. Usually, there will be a carrier for such flavors, such as an oil (hydrogenated or not) along with other ingredients that are commonly found in margarine products. Since many of these products do not contain the same ingredients as the PJ Garlic sauce, they have to be tested to see if their flavors approximate the flavors of the PJ Garlic sauce. This can be a hit or miss proposition. Examples of products in this category include the Whirl product and the Pan-Whiz product. They have to be tested to see if they meet your needs.

The second way of creating a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce is to try to clone that sauce. That means trying to find and combine the same types of ingredients as are used in the PJ Garlic sauce and hope that you get the same flavors. This approach is the one that was described in the PJ clone thread, with an example being discussed at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260974.html#msg260974. For that specific example, the Parkay Squeeze margarine product, a butter flavor such as imparted by the McCormick product that you hope to receive, and dry garlic powder would be combined and tested to see if the final product tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce, or possibly even better.

There is no reason why both methods can't be tried, either serially or in parallel. It comes down to how much effort you are willing to devote to the project.

I am familiar with the J.O.Y. company and its products. I first became aware of that company in May of 2008. As best I can tell, Papa John's used J.O.Y. to extend its product line to include frozen pizzas sold to schools and other end users under the Papa John name. Those products are not included at the PJ website. And you will not find any Nutrition Facts for the frozen pizzas at the PJ website. I suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products. A few years after I first learned of J.O.Y., I tried to revisit the J.O.Y website only to find that the website no longer existed. Tonight I found a website link for J.O.Y. at http://www.texaswomenventures.com/portfolio-company-3-j-o-y-foods-inc-current.aspx, but when I clicked on the link, it was dead. I think you can stick a fork into this one.

Peter


Peter,

I thought that is what you meant, that there might be various ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce.  I understand that using different ingredients to try and make a garlic sauce like the PJ Garlic might take awhile to try and achieve that.  I am willing to put a certain amount of effort in to trying to make a garlic sauce that might be like the PJ garlic sauce, or even possibly better, but I will have to also look at costs on trying to do that.  When I sold cheesesticks before they really weren't a big seller and I am almost sure my customers would not be willing to pay what PJ gets for their cheesesticks.  My customers would not purchase a whole cheesestick order I wouldn't think.  I guess I was hoping that if I could come up with a tasty enough garlic sauce with a decent price from doing that, that might help sell cheesesticks.  Some customers still ask for the cheesesticks I once sold, but it remains to be seen if anyone would be interested again.  It also depends on how much time I have to make the cheesesticks on any given Tuesday at market.  Right now when market is busier in the summer some days it gets pretty hectic trying to make the Detroit style pizzas and the boardwalk style of pizzas and having enough of both to offer to customers.  I am not like a sit down pizza business, where customers order and sit down to eat.  My products almost have to be ready for my customers, or they have to be ready while the customers are at market.  There is also the issue of trying to juggle around more dough balls in different temperatures.  Yesterday it was 92 degrees F at market and the humidity was really high, so that also has to be taken into consideration when making dough.  Today the heat index is supposed to be around 100 degrees F.  I already do have containers with lids that I could put the garlic sauce into though. 

Thanks for telling me when you first became aware of the J.O.Y. Company and it's products.  I also now suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products.  I looked a little more about J.O.Y. Foods, Inc. at http://www.indeed.com/cmp/J.o.y.-Foods,-Inc. and that website link is dead too.

Norma
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