Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 21899 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Nate,

You are referring to the post (Reply 17) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258240.html#msg258240

However, in the above post, Jon said that he believed that one of the little tubs was 2 ounces. They are actually one ounce (by weight). However, if we assume that 1.5 ounces of the PJ Garlic sauce is used for a small (10") skin, then by extrapolation a 12" skin might use 1.5 x 62/52 = 2.16 ounces. This answer presupposes that a quart of the PJ Garlic sauce weighs 32 ounces and that that amount of sauce can serve 22 Cheesesticks orders. That is 32/22 = 1.46 ounces per order. For a 12" skin, that works out to 2.10 ounces. If these numbers are correct, then, yes, Norma might have been a bit short on the garlic sauce. However, I wouldn't fall in love with those numbers just yet. There are too many differences between baking cheesesticks in a deck oven as opposed to a PJ conveyor oven. However, for now, using 2 ounces of garlic sauce is perhaps worth a try.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Peter,

I want to make another attempt at the PJ cheesesticks and the PJ garlic sauce at market on Tuesday.  I don't have enough of the Power Flour to do another test.  Do you have a combination of flours in mind for me to try?

I didn't receive my sample of Whirl or the McCormick's imitation butter flavor product for professionals.  I guess I have to wing the PJ garlic sauce attempt again.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

Can you tell me what flours you have on hand, particularly unbromated flours?

Do you plan to follow-up on the Whirl and McCormick products?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

Can you tell me what flours you have on hand, particularly unbromated flours?

Do you plan to follow-up on the Whirl and McCormick products?

Peter

Peter,

All I recall I have on hand as far as unbromated flours is Mondako flour and KABF and maybe a little KAAP.  I do have VWG and don't mind trying that if you think it might be an option.

I do plan on following up why I haven't received the samples this coming week.  With my brother visiting and then the Pizza Summit at Craig's home I was too busy to follow-up in the last two weeks.  I also have a lot of supplies to pick up tomorrow and go to market, so I don't think I will find time to follow-up then.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

Can you tell me how much Power flour you have left, and also what bromated flours you have on hand?

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

Can you tell me how much Power flour you have left, and also what bromated flours you have on hand?

Peter

Peter,

I weighed the Power flour I have left and it is only 90 grams.  I have to go pick up 50 lb. bags of All Trumps and the Occident flour tomorrow.  They are the only bromated flours I recall that I will have on hand.  I also can purchase another flour like Better for Bread at the supermarket if you think that would work better.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

As you may recall, I have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that I believe Papa Johnís has been using. Since I have not discussed how I came up with this range before, this is perhaps as good a place as any to discuss this matter.

If you go to Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046, you will see the most current ingredients list for Papa Johnís dough. You will also see that the first three ingredients are wheat flour (unbleached), malted barley flour, and wheat starch. Wheat starch is a wheat-derived product that is often used for its blending qualities. Also, when used in a baked goods product, it will provide added tenderness to that product. But one of the most important things to know about wheat starch is that it is about 86-88% carbohydrates (see the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx). What that means is that if a portion of a given fixed sample (e.g., a 100-gram sample) of flour is replaced by wheat starch, that will dilute the protein content of the flour and reduce its protein content. I believe that PJ starts out with a fairly high protein, high-gluten flour and replaces part of it with wheat starch to lower the protein content, and at the same time help with the mixing of the dough and add a bit more tenderness to the finished crust.

From a quantitative standpoint, the amount of wheat starch need not be great. Since federal law (see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=137.105) says that if barley malted flour is to be used it cannot exceed 0.75%, and since the wheat starch is listed next to the malted barley flour, that means that the amount of wheat starch will be less than 0.75%. I donít know what specific base flour PJ is using or the amount of malted barley flour it is using but if we assume a base flour with a protein content of around 14%, which is the type of hard wheat flour that ConAgra mills in its Decatur, Alabama mill, malted barley flour at 0.75%, and wheat starch at just below 0.75%, the effect of the wheat starch will be to reduce the protein content of the blend to around 13.4-13.6%. Even if we are off by a fraction of a percent, I do not think the difference will be noticeable in the finished product.

With the above as background, the best flour of the flours you mentioned to use for the PJ clone Cheesesticks is the Power flour. That flour falls within the above protein range and it is unbromated. Unfortunately, you do not have enough of that flour for the dough formulation (reproduced below) that you will be using. I could perhaps come up with a three-flour blend that would use up your remaining Power flour, but I would prefer to avoid the added layer of math complexity to do that, even if it means having to use a bromated flour. All of the other unbromated flours you mentioned (Mondako, KABF, KAAP and Better for Bread) are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten. I would also like to avoid that approach at this point. Instead, I would rather use the All Trumps flour to raise the protein content of such flours. And, likewise for the bromated Occident flour.

Having played around with the flours that you have or will soon have, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, here are some possible flour blends:

63.16 grams (2.23 ounces) Mondako (11.9% protein) and 178.95 grams (6.31 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

58.11 grams (2.05 ounces) KABF (11.7% protein) and 184 grams (6.49 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

72.63 grams (2.56 ounces) Occident (12.2% protein) and 169.48 grams (5.98 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

All of the above blends should have a final protein content of 13.6%. Since you have worked extensively with the above flours and know how they behave and perform, I will leave to you to decide which of the blends to use for your next experiment. It is also possible to come up with other blends if you so wish.

Here is the recommended dough formulation:
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.45%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.79%):
242.11 g  |  8.54 oz | 0.53 lbs
135.58 g  |  4.78 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
13.44 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.96 tsp | 0.99 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
411.08 g | 14.5 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: The dough ball weight is the same as used for a 12" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12821; no bowl residue compensation

For the clone garlic sauce you plan to use, you should use 2 ounces, by weight, on the 12Ē skin, as was discussed earlier in this thread.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:56:06 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

As you may recall, I have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that I believe Papa Johnís has been using. Since I have not discussed how I came up with this range before, this is perhaps as good a place as any to discuss this matter.

If you go to Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, you will see the most current ingredients list for Papa Johnís dough. You will also see that the first three ingredients are wheat flour (unbleached), malted barley flour, and wheat starch. Wheat starch is a wheat-derived product that is often used for its blending qualities. Also, when used in a baked goods product, it will provide added tenderness to that product. But one of the most important things to know about wheat starch is that it is about 86-88% carbohydrates (see the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx). What that means is that if a portion of a given fixed sample (e.g., a 100-gram sample) of flour is replaced by wheat starch, that will dilute the protein content of the flour and reduce its protein content. I believe that PJ starts out with a fairly high protein, high-gluten flour and replaces part of it with wheat starch to lower the protein content, and at the same time help with the mixing of the dough and add a bit more tenderness to the finished crust.

From a quantitative standpoint, the amount of wheat starch need not be great. Since federal law (see http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=137.105) says that if barley malted flour is to be used it cannot exceed 0.75%, and since the wheat starch is listed next to the malted barley flour, that means that the amount of wheat starch will be less than 0.75%. I donít know what specific base flour PJ is using or the amount of malted barley flour it is using but if we assume a base flour with a protein content of around 14-14.2%, which is the type of hard wheat flour that ConAgra mills in its Decatur, Alabama mill, malted barley flour at 0.75%, and wheat starch at just below 0.75%, the effect of the wheat starch will be to reduce the protein content of the blend to around 13.4-13.6%. Even if we are off by a fraction of a percent, I do not think the difference will be noticeable in the finished product.

With the above as background, the best flour of the flours you mentioned to use for the PJ clone Cheesesticks is the Power flour. That flour falls within the above protein range and it is unbromated. Unfortunately, you do not have enough of that flour for the dough formulation (reproduced below) that you will be using. I could perhaps come up with a three-flour blend that would use up your remaining Power flour, but I would prefer to avoid the added layer of math complexity to do that, even if it means having to use a bromated flour. All of the other unbromated flours you mentioned (Mondako, KABF, KAAP and Better for Bread) are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten. I would also like to avoid that approach at this point. Instead, I would rather use the All Trumps flour to raise the protein content of such flours. And, likewise for the bromated Occident flour.

Having played around with the flours that you have or will soon have, and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, here are some possible flour blends:

63.16 grams (2.23 ounces) Mondako (11.9% protein) and 178.95 grams (6.31 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

58.11 grams (2.05 ounces) KABF (11.7% protein) and 184 grams (6.49 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

72.63 grams (2.56 ounces) Occident (12.2% protein) and 169.48 grams (5.98 ounces) All Trumps (14.2% protein)

All of the above blends should have a final protein content of 13.6%. Since you have worked extensively with the above flours and know how they behave and perform, I will leave to you to decide which of the blends to use for your next experiment. It is also possible to come up with other blends if you so wish.

Here is the recommended dough formulation:
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.45%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.79%):
242.11 g  |  8.54 oz | 0.53 lbs
135.58 g  |  4.78 oz | 0.3 lbs
1.09 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
4.6 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
13.44 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.96 tsp | 0.99 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
411.08 g | 14.5 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend should have a protein content of 13.4-13.6%
Note: The dough ball weight is the same as used for a 12" pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 0.12821; no bowl residue compensation

For the clone garlic sauce you plan to use, you should use 2 ounces, by weight, on the 12Ē skin, as was discussed earlier in this thread.

Peter

Peter,

I do recall that you have been using a range of 13.4-13.6% as the range of protein values for the flour blend that you believe Papa John's has been using. 

Your link for 493 took me to reply 480, but that is okay because I can find reply 493.  I didn't know what wheat starch was before.  Thanks for explaining what it does.  I didn't know wheat starch could be purchased by anyone either.  Learning about wheat starch is interesting because I thought before that the more tender crust of PJ's pizza was from the high levels of soybean oil and sugar in the formulation. 

Thanks for also telling me that Mondako, KABF, KAAP and the Better for Bread flours are too low in protein content and would have to be supplemented with vital wheat gluten.  That is what I thought. 

Thanks for using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator for some possible flour blends.  I think I will try out the KABF and the All Trumps blend first to see what happens. 

I still have two containers of PJ's special garlic sauce, but I will need to try to make a garlic sauce myself for dipping the cheesesticks if they turn out okay.  Do you want me take the same approach as I took before?  Maybe I can do a little bit of experimenting over the weekend with trying to make my own garlic sauce.

I did call about the butter flavoring this morning, but they have limited hours due to the 4th of July, but I did leave a message.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

Thank you for catching the link problem with Reply 493. I composed the post in Word because of its complexity, and I tested the link in the Preview mode to be sure it worked, but somehow a comma got in front of a tag. I have corrected the link.

I agree that wheat starch is an interesting ingredient. And it took me a while to note its significance. What is nice about wheat starch is that it is a fairly pure and neutral product. It is mostly carbohydrates as I mentioned but it has almost no fat, no sugars, no dietary fiber, almost no vitamins or minerals, and minuscule amounts of sodium and protein. The Nutrition Facts do not indicate water content, so I assume that the difference between 86-88% and 100% is largely water. For our purposes, I looked for flours that are in the desired protein range that do not have wheat starch as an ingredient.

I believe that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil, as you noted. The wheat starch quantity would supplement that but not materially. Maybe some day we will learn exactly why PJ uses it.

As for your garlic clone sauce, you should use your best judgment based on the results of your last experiment. However, if you don't mind, when you decide to use one of the PJ Garlic sauce mini-tubs, would you mind converting the contents of the mini-tub to a volume measurement, using standard measuring spoons? And if you can weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinsed out, that would also be helpful. These measurements might confirm some our numbers and help us zero in more closely on how much Garlic sauce PJ uses to make its Cheesesticks.

Peter


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

Thank you for catching the link problem with Reply 493. I composed the post in Word because of its complexity, and I tested the link in the Preview mode to be sure it worked, but somehow a comma got in front of a tag. I have corrected the link.

I agree that wheat starch is an interesting ingredient. And it took me a while to note its significance. What is nice about wheat starch is that it is a fairly pure and neutral product. It is mostly carbohydrates as I mentioned but it has almost no fat, no sugars, no dietary fiber, almost no vitamins or minerals, and minuscule amounts of sodium and protein. The Nutrition Facts do not indicate water content, so I assume that the difference between 86-88% and 100% is largely water. For our purposes, I looked for flours that are in the desired protein range that do not have wheat starch as an ingredient.

I believe that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil, as you noted. The wheat starch quantity would supplement that but not materially. Maybe some day we will learn exactly why PJ uses it.

As for your garlic clone sauce, you should use your best judgment based on the results of your last experiment. However, if you don't mind, when you decide to use one of the PJ Garlic sauce mini-tubs, would you mind converting the contents of the mini-tub to a volume measurement, using standard measuring spoons? And if you can weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinsed out, that would also be helpful. These measurements might confirm some our numbers and help us zero in more closely on how much Garlic sauce PJ uses to make its Cheesesticks.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me more about wheat starch.  Did you ever notice any other pizzerias that use a proprietary blend of flour that also have wheat starch as an ingredient?  Maybe you did before, but I might have missed it.

Thanks for telling me that the primary ingredients that contribute to crust tenderness are the large amounts of sugar and oil.  How would we ever find out exactly why PJ uses wheat starch? 

I will convert one of the PJ Garlic Sauce mini-tubs to a volume measurements using standard measuring spoons.  I also will weigh the mini-tub before using the contents and also weigh the mini-tub container itself after it has been rinse out. 

I was at the webrestaurant store today to pick some things up and looked around to see if I could find any butter alternatives maybe for a buttery garlic sauce for market if I can get the PJ clone cheesesticks to bake right in my oven.  I saw a Admiration product called Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.  I took some photos of the Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.  There are 3 gallons to a case and the price for one gallon might not be too bad.  I saw The Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor can be used to make sauces.  Do you think this product might work to make a PJ garlic sauce for market?  http://admirationfoods.com/pdf/pan_whiz.pdf   If not, do you think any of the other Admiration products at http://admirationfoods.com/margarine_butter_blends.php  might work?  The price of the case is on the one photo for the 3 gallons of Pan Whiz Buttery Flavor.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Peter,

I just found the ingredient list and spec sheet for the Admiration Pan-Whiz if that will help more.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/nutrition/101PANWHIZ1G.pdf 

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

To answer you question about the use of wheat starch, I have not done much in the way of research to see the extent of its use in pizza doughs. However, I vaguely recalled that Domino's was using wheat starch in one or more of its doughs. I found the Domino's ingredients list at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. From that list, you can see at page four that the dough for Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.

Thank you for the ingredients list for the Admiration Pan-Whiz product. As I was getting ready to ask you for that information, I saw that you were referencing the document containing that information. From the ingredients list, I see several components that are used or are similar to those used in the PJ Garlic sauce. I believe that the Admiration Pan-Whiz ingredients list means to recite that the soybean oil is partially hydrogenated but, apart from that, it is quite possible that Admiration is using much more soybean oil than PJ uses. I come to this conclusion because one ounce of the Pan-Whiz product contains 28 grams of Total Fat. A one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce contains 17 grams of Total Fat. Also, whereas the PJ Garlic sauce contains water, the Pan-Whiz product does not. That perhaps explains why the Pan-Whiz product does not contain emulsifiers such as mono- and diglycerides. Emulsifiers are required in the PJ Garlic sauce to bind the water and oils together.

Other similarities between the Pan-Whiz and PJ Garlic sauce include the use of salt, lecithin, butter flavor, color through the use of beta carotene, and a flavor protector. The only way to know how effective the Pan-Whiz product is as sauce for cheesesticks is to give it a try. However, if the objective is to try to morph the Pan-Whiz product into a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, I believe that there are better ways of doing it. But since you started this thread to come up with a non-clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, you are free to exercise discretion as to the use of the Pan-Whiz product in its own right as a sauce for cheesesticks.

Peter

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

To answer you question about the use of wheat starch, I have not done much in the way of research to see the extent of its use in pizza doughs. However, I vaguely recalled that Domino's was using wheat starch in one or more of its doughs. I found the Domino's ingredients list at http://cache.dominos.com/homev8/docs/menu/dominos_nutrition_v2.21.00.pdf. From that list, you can see at page four that the dough for Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.

Thank you for the ingredients list for the Admiration Pan-Whiz product. As I was getting ready to ask you for that information, I saw that you were referencing the document containing that information. From the ingredients list, I see several components that are used or are similar to those used in the PJ Garlic sauce. I believe that the Admiration Pan-Whiz ingredients list means to recite that the soybean oil is partially hydrogenated but, apart from that, it is quite possible that Admiration is using much more soybean oil than PJ uses. I come to this conclusion because one ounce of the Pan-Whiz product contains 28 grams of Total Fat. A one ounce mini-tub of the PJ Garlic sauce contains 17 grams of Total Fat. Also, whereas the PJ Garlic sauce contains water, the Pan-Whiz product does not. That perhaps explains why the Pan-Whiz product does not contain emulsifiers such as mono- and diglycerides. Emulsifiers are required in the PJ Garlic sauce to bind the water and oils together.

Other similarities between the Pan-Whiz and PJ Garlic sauce include the use of salt, lecithin, butter flavor, color through the use of beta carotene, and a flavor protector. The only way to know how effective the Pan-Whiz product is as sauce for cheesesticks is to give it a try. However, if the objective is to try to morph the Pan-Whiz product into a clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, I believe that there are better ways of doing it. But since you started this thread to come up with a non-clone of the PJ Garlic sauce, you are free to exercise discretion as to the use of the Pan-Whiz product in its own right as a sauce for cheesesticks.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't mean to give you more work in searching about wheat starch in other pizza doughs.  I see Domino's hand tossed crust includes wheat starch.  Thanks for finding that.

Thanks for explaining the similarities and differences between the Pan-Whiz and the PJ Garlic sauce.  All I want to do is have a product that tastes like the PJ garlic sauce if I decide to sell the PJ cheesesticks at market.  What are your other ideas of ways to clone the PJ Garlic sauce.  Do you mean I should wait until I see if I get the sample products and proceed from there? 

I have one other question and maybe I should be posting this on your PJ thread.  If you want me to post it there I can.

Is this really a frozen Papa John's Pan Crust Cheese with the Nutrition Facts?  I didn't even know Papa John's made a Pan pizza.

http://www.hpisd.org/portals/0/docs/foodservice/pdfs/Entrees/CafePizzaPappaJohns_Cheese.pdf  Is J.O.Y. Foods Inc. a manufacturer and marketer of pizza products for schools or other foodservice industries?  I was just curious since the ingredients in the dough didn't look the same.

Norma

« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 06:12:41 AM by norma427 »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

As I see it, there are essentially two ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce. The first way, which is the premise of this thread, is to look at various products that contain butter-like flavors and combine them with sources of garlic flavor. The butter and garlic flavors can take many different forms. For example, they can be real flavors or artificial flavors, or even a combination of real and artificial flavors. Usually, there will be a carrier for such flavors, such as an oil (hydrogenated or not) along with other ingredients that are commonly found in margarine products. Since many of these products do not contain the same ingredients as the PJ Garlic sauce, they have to be tested to see if their flavors approximate the flavors of the PJ Garlic sauce. This can be a hit or miss proposition. Examples of products in this category include the Whirl product and the Pan-Whiz product. They have to be tested to see if they meet your needs.

The second way of creating a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce is to try to clone that sauce. That means trying to find and combine the same types of ingredients as are used in the PJ Garlic sauce and hope that you get the same flavors. This approach is the one that was described in the PJ clone thread, with an example being discussed at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260974.html#msg260974. For that specific example, the Parkay Squeeze margarine product, a butter flavor such as imparted by the McCormick product that you hope to receive, and dry garlic powder would be combined and tested to see if the final product tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce, or possibly even better.

There is no reason why both methods can't be tried, either serially or in parallel. It comes down to how much effort you are willing to devote to the project.

I am familiar with the J.O.Y. company and its products. I first became aware of that company in May of 2008. As best I can tell, Papa John's used J.O.Y. to extend its product line to include frozen pizzas sold to schools and other end users under the Papa John name. Those products are not included at the PJ website. And you will not find any Nutrition Facts for the frozen pizzas at the PJ website. I suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products. A few years after I first learned of J.O.Y., I tried to revisit the J.O.Y website only to find that the website no longer existed. Tonight I found a website link for J.O.Y. at http://www.texaswomenventures.com/portfolio-company-3-j-o-y-foods-inc-current.aspx, but when I clicked on the link, it was dead. I think you can stick a fork into this one.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 11:03:02 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

As I see it, there are essentially two ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce. The first way, which is the premise of this thread, is to look at various products that contain butter-like flavors and combine them with sources of garlic flavor. The butter and garlic flavors can take many different forms. For example, they can be real flavors or artificial flavors, or even a combination of real and artificial flavors. Usually, there will be a carrier for such flavors, such as an oil (hydrogenated or not) along with other ingredients that are commonly found in margarine products. Since many of these products do not contain the same ingredients as the PJ Garlic sauce, they have to be tested to see if their flavors approximate the flavors of the PJ Garlic sauce. This can be a hit or miss proposition. Examples of products in this category include the Whirl product and the Pan-Whiz product. They have to be tested to see if they meet your needs.

The second way of creating a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce is to try to clone that sauce. That means trying to find and combine the same types of ingredients as are used in the PJ Garlic sauce and hope that you get the same flavors. This approach is the one that was described in the PJ clone thread, with an example being discussed at Reply 552 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260974.html#msg260974. For that specific example, the Parkay Squeeze margarine product, a butter flavor such as imparted by the McCormick product that you hope to receive, and dry garlic powder would be combined and tested to see if the final product tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce, or possibly even better.

There is no reason why both methods can't be tried, either serially or in parallel. It comes down to how much effort you are willing to devote to the project.

I am familiar with the J.O.Y. company and its products. I first became aware of that company in May of 2008. As best I can tell, Papa John's used J.O.Y. to extend its product line to include frozen pizzas sold to schools and other end users under the Papa John name. Those products are not included at the PJ website. And you will not find any Nutrition Facts for the frozen pizzas at the PJ website. I suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products. A few years after I first learned of J.O.Y., I tried to revisit the J.O.Y website only to find that the website no longer existed. Tonight I found a website link for J.O.Y. at http://www.texaswomenventures.com/portfolio-company-3-j-o-y-foods-inc-current.aspx, but when I clicked on the link, it was dead. I think you can stick a fork into this one.

Peter

Peter,

I thought that is what you meant, that there might be various ways to create a garlic sauce that tastes like the PJ Garlic sauce.  I understand that using different ingredients to try and make a garlic sauce like the PJ Garlic might take awhile to try and achieve that.  I am willing to put a certain amount of effort in to trying to make a garlic sauce that might be like the PJ garlic sauce, or even possibly better, but I will have to also look at costs on trying to do that.  When I sold cheesesticks before they really weren't a big seller and I am almost sure my customers would not be willing to pay what PJ gets for their cheesesticks.  My customers would not purchase a whole cheesestick order I wouldn't think.  I guess I was hoping that if I could come up with a tasty enough garlic sauce with a decent price from doing that, that might help sell cheesesticks.  Some customers still ask for the cheesesticks I once sold, but it remains to be seen if anyone would be interested again.  It also depends on how much time I have to make the cheesesticks on any given Tuesday at market.  Right now when market is busier in the summer some days it gets pretty hectic trying to make the Detroit style pizzas and the boardwalk style of pizzas and having enough of both to offer to customers.  I am not like a sit down pizza business, where customers order and sit down to eat.  My products almost have to be ready for my customers, or they have to be ready while the customers are at market.  There is also the issue of trying to juggle around more dough balls in different temperatures.  Yesterday it was 92 degrees F at market and the humidity was really high, so that also has to be taken into consideration when making dough.  Today the heat index is supposed to be around 100 degrees F.  I already do have containers with lids that I could put the garlic sauce into though. 

Thanks for telling me when you first became aware of the J.O.Y. Company and it's products.  I also now suspect that PJ is no longer offering those products.  I looked a little more about J.O.Y. Foods, Inc. at http://www.indeed.com/cmp/J.o.y.-Foods,-Inc. and that website link is dead too.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
I made an attempt on the PJ clone garlic sauce last evening.  I decided to use the garlic powder from the Country Store, instead of the garlic powder from Shurfine, to see if there would be any differences in the taste of the garlic flavor in the finished garlic sauce.  When I tasted the attempt last evening it tasted almost like I remember the PJ garlic sauce tasting.  When I went to taste it this morning after it sat in the fridge overnight the garlic flavor is too strong.  I mention this because if anyone else tries to make a PJ garlic sauce they might want to make sure their garlic powder isn't too strong, or either add less of the garlic powder if it tastes stronger than other garlic powders after the garlic sauce sits for awhile.  The garlic sauce I made did have a buttery flavor and wasn't too salty last evening.

I will now have to make another attempt at the PJ clone garlic sauce today with the Shurfine garlic powder. 

This is what my garlic sauce looks like this morning and also a photo of how the Country Store's garlic powder looks in comparison to how the Shurfine garlic powder looks.  I will take both garlic sauces along to market on Tuesday.  I thought of adding more Parkay Squeeze to see if that would make my garlic sauce less garlicky tasting, but then I guess I would then foul up all the other ingredients.

This is what I used last evening.

2 ounces Parkay Squeeze
2 grams soybean oil
6 tads (using mini-measuring spoons) Butter Buds Sprinkles
6 grams water
1.20 grams garlic powder from the Country Store

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
I mixed another attempt at a PJ clone Garlic sauce.  I used the same amount of ingredients that I did last evening, but I used the Shurfine garlic powder today. 

The one photo is all the ingredients added in the plastic container and the second photo is of what my PJ Garlic sauce looks like mixed.  I did mix, but might have to mix more tomorrow.  The attempt at PJ Garlic sauce tastes good to me, but then I don't have an opened PJ's Garlic sauce to compare it to.

I also checked at Hometown Provisions, Inc. website this morning and they do sell some kind of garlic butter dipping sauce on page 6.  The garlic butter dipping sauce is item # 880103 and there are 96 cups in a case. http://hometownprovisions.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2013-Product-Catalog.pdf   When I call Hometown, Provisions, Inc. tomorrow to place my order I am going to find out the brand of the garlic butter dipping sauce and also see how much a case costs.

Norma


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Peter,

This post is not related to the PJ's special Garlic sauce.

I was searching a little more about wheat starch in pizza doughs and did see that Pizza Hut does have wheat starch in their flour for their Multigrain crust.  http://www.pizzahut.ca/Fileupload/ingredients.pdf

I also saw on the Vegetarian Resource Group that Papa John's did provide an updated Product Ingredient List in 2007 to the VRG.   The VRG noticed a significant change in Papa John's products since 2004.  http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2008issue2/veggieRestaurantChains.htm

I see that PJ's cheeses were made with Chymax.  The above article also says that the Garlic sauces using lactic acid is not considered dairy since it has been fermented.

I know you said the PJ Ingredient List has been updated since then though.

I am going to use a little bit less yeast than the amount you recommended at 0.45% for a one day cold ferment at Reply 31 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg263869.html#msg263869   I don't know if you recall, but my other dough ball seemed to ferment too much in that amount of time.

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

In my original research on the PJ dough, I noted that in its promotional materials PJ went from describing its flour as a "high gluten" flour to a "high protein" flour. I took that to mean that either PJ had changed its flour or it was trying to conceal the protein content of the actual flour used. Also as part of my research, I found two earlier versions of the PJ pizza dough, one in about 2001 and the other in about 2003. The circa 2001 version was this one:

Pizza Dough: Bleached, enriched wheat flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, inactive dried yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes. (https://home.comcast.net/~tfcozzo/food/PapaJohns.htm)

The circa 2003 version was as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached, enriched flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes.

Fortunately, I had printed out the circa 2003 version because the link for that version, from a vegan forum, is now dead.

You will note the absence of wheat starch in the above two versions. The wheat starch as an ingredient emerged sometime around 2008, when I received information from PJ on its products.

You will also note that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast. I believe that the inactive dry yeast was dead yeast, or glutathione. The circa 2003 version mentions only yeast, not inactive dry yeast.

I think you will find the use of wheat starch in other pizza products, including frozen pizzas.

Peter

EDIT (7/8/13): the Wayback Machine link that replaces the dead link referenced above is http://web.archive.org/web/20120723105440/http://www.vegfamily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503&page=2
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 08:51:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

In my original research on the PJ dough, I noted that in its promotional materials PJ went from describing its flour as a "high gluten" flour to a "high protein" flour. I took that to mean that either PJ had changed its flour or it was trying to conceal the protein content of the actual flour used. Also as part of my research, I found two earlier versions of the PJ pizza dough, one in about 2001 and the other in about 2003. The circa 2001 version was this one:

Pizza Dough: Bleached, enriched wheat flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, inactive dried yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes. (https://home.comcast.net/~tfcozzo/food/PapaJohns.htm)

The circa 2003 version was as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached, enriched flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes.

Fortunately, I had printed out the circa 2003 version because the link for that version, from a vegan forum, is now dead.

You will note the absence of wheat starch in the above two versions. The wheat starch as an ingredient emerged sometime around 2008, when I received information from PJ on its products.

You will also note that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast. I believe that the inactive dry yeast was dead yeast, or glutathione. The circa 2003 version mentions only yeast, not inactive dry yeast.

I think you will find the use of wheat starch in other pizza products, including frozen pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me on your original research on the PJ dough that in its promotional material PJ went from describing its flour as a high gluten flour to a high protein flour.  I wasn't following your PJ thread when you posted that.  It is good you printed out the circa 2003 version.  I did note the absence of wheat starch in your post. 

I guess PJ went from a bleached to an unbleached flour because it looks better to customers.  I also noted that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast.  I wonder what the inactive dry yeast, or dead yeast brought to the table in taste of PJ's crusts back then. 

To let you know, I did send an email about the sample of the Whirl product I had asked for and asked why I didn't receive a sample in 2 weeks.  I explained when I requested a sample before I was testing the Whirl product for the application of applying it to the bake rim of a pizza crust (Mellow Mushroom, but I didn't give that name), but I didn't eventually sell that kind of pizza.  I explained that is why I wanted another sample of the Whirl product for testing to see if I could use the Whirl product in making a buttery garlic sauce for cheesesticks I am thinking about offering.  I also asked if any sample of their Whirl product with garlic could be requested.  This is the email I just received a little while ago.

Good morning.

I have forwarded your request to Beth Meyer, the sales rep for your area.  She will contact you regarding the sample.

Thanks!

Beth Meyer did just call me and said she will send me a gallon of the regular Whirl product and a gallon of the Whirl with garlic to test.  Beth said I should received the Whirl products in a week and one half or 2 weeks. 

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

As you can see from the current Pizza Dough ingredients set forth below, not a great deal changed from around 2003:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, wheat starch, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast [fungal or bacterial derivatives Ė NO animal derivatives]. No trans fat.

For some reason, the amount of enzymes were increased (it is higher up in the ingredients list). Maybe it was because of the addition of the wheat starch or possibly a reduction in the amount of damaged starch.

Since the inactive dried yeast in the circa 2001 PJ pizza dough was pretty far down the list, it might have added some flavor to the finished crust but if PJ was using a high gluten flour at the time, it might also have also served to relax the dough in case it was prone to "buckiness". Tom Lehmann discussed various dough relaxers, including dead yeast/glutathione, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4311&p=23405&hilit=#p23405. For our purposes, the use of dead yeast is moot since it apparently is no longer being used in the current PJ pizza dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 12:02:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Norma,

As you can see from the current Pizza Dough ingredients set forth below, not a great deal changed from around 2003:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, wheat starch, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast [fungal or bacterial derivatives Ė NO animal derivatives]. No trans fat.

For some reason, the amount of enzymes were increased (it is higher up in the ingredients list). Maybe it was because of the addition of the wheat starch or possibly a reduction in the amount of damaged starch.

Since the inactive dried yeast in the circa 2001 PJ pizza dough was pretty far down the list, it might have added some flavor to the finished crust but if PJ was using a high gluten flour at the time, it might also have also served to relax the dough in case it was prone to "buckiness". Tom Lehmann discussed various dough relaxers, including dead yeast/glutathione, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4311&p=23405&hilit=#p23405. For our purposes, the use of dead yeast is moot since it apparently is no longer being used in the current PJ pizza dough.

Peter

Peter,

I see the current Pizza Dough ingredients have not changed a great deal since 2003.  Thanks for referencing the post from Tom Lehmann where he discussed various dough relaxers on PMQ Think Tank.  Thanks for your thoughts also about the high gluten flour and using the dead yeast/glutathione.

Norma

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24025
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
I removed the two attempted PJ garlic sauces from the fridge this morning.  The one garlic sauce I attempted yesterday did separate more until this morning.  I used a spoon to stir it up and it was then okay.  The other PJ garlic sauce I attempted with the Country Store garlic powder didn't separate at all and never did.  I wonder what is up with using two different garlic powders that one separates and one doesn't.  The garlic sauce I made yesterday didn't taste too strong in the garlic department. 

I mixed the PJ clone dough for the cheesesticks using the blend of KABF and the All Trumps flour.  The final dough temperature was 74.9 degrees F and the dough ball weighed 14.4 ounces or 409 grams.

I mixed only with the flat beater because there wasn't enough dough to use the dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I used the delayed method of adding the soybean oil.  The dough ball went into the fridge at 11:00 AM this morning. 

Norma

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

As I was going through my files on the PJ dough, I found a printout of Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1786.msg16465.html#msg16465. As you will note from that post, it appears that there was yet another version of the PJ dough, as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, wheat starch.

So, as of about August 30, 2005, it appears that PJ was using wheat starch. If the ingredients were listed by order of predominance, then the amount of wheat starch would have been fairly low.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23354
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Norma,

According to the article at http://www.westfalia-separator.com/applications/renewable-resources/wheat-starch-wheat-gluten.html, which I found in a footnote of a Wikipedia entry on gluten, it appears that wheat starch is produced from the starch that remains from processing a dough to make dried vital wheat gluten. Presumably, the wheat starch would contain any related damaged starch. That might help explain the addition of more enzyme (alpha amylase) to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combined with flour to make the PJ dough.

None of the above should be of concern to you in making the clone of PJ Cheesesticks using your proposed clones of the PJ Garlic sauce. The best we can do is try to find a flour with the desired overall protein content.

Peter


 

pizzapan