Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 14867 times)

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Offline norma427

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I made an attempt on the PJ clone garlic sauce last evening.  I decided to use the garlic powder from the Country Store, instead of the garlic powder from Shurfine, to see if there would be any differences in the taste of the garlic flavor in the finished garlic sauce.  When I tasted the attempt last evening it tasted almost like I remember the PJ garlic sauce tasting.  When I went to taste it this morning after it sat in the fridge overnight the garlic flavor is too strong.  I mention this because if anyone else tries to make a PJ garlic sauce they might want to make sure their garlic powder isn't too strong, or either add less of the garlic powder if it tastes stronger than other garlic powders after the garlic sauce sits for awhile.  The garlic sauce I made did have a buttery flavor and wasn't too salty last evening.

I will now have to make another attempt at the PJ clone garlic sauce today with the Shurfine garlic powder. 

This is what my garlic sauce looks like this morning and also a photo of how the Country Store's garlic powder looks in comparison to how the Shurfine garlic powder looks.  I will take both garlic sauces along to market on Tuesday.  I thought of adding more Parkay Squeeze to see if that would make my garlic sauce less garlicky tasting, but then I guess I would then foul up all the other ingredients.

This is what I used last evening.

2 ounces Parkay Squeeze
2 grams soybean oil
6 tads (using mini-measuring spoons) Butter Buds Sprinkles
6 grams water
1.20 grams garlic powder from the Country Store

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I mixed another attempt at a PJ clone Garlic sauce.  I used the same amount of ingredients that I did last evening, but I used the Shurfine garlic powder today. 

The one photo is all the ingredients added in the plastic container and the second photo is of what my PJ Garlic sauce looks like mixed.  I did mix, but might have to mix more tomorrow.  The attempt at PJ Garlic sauce tastes good to me, but then I don't have an opened PJ's Garlic sauce to compare it to.

I also checked at Hometown Provisions, Inc. website this morning and they do sell some kind of garlic butter dipping sauce on page 6.  The garlic butter dipping sauce is item # 880103 and there are 96 cups in a case. http://hometownprovisions.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2013-Product-Catalog.pdf   When I call Hometown, Provisions, Inc. tomorrow to place my order I am going to find out the brand of the garlic butter dipping sauce and also see how much a case costs.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Peter,

This post is not related to the PJ's special Garlic sauce.

I was searching a little more about wheat starch in pizza doughs and did see that Pizza Hut does have wheat starch in their flour for their Multigrain crust.  http://www.pizzahut.ca/Fileupload/ingredients.pdf

I also saw on the Vegetarian Resource Group that Papa John's did provide an updated Product Ingredient List in 2007 to the VRG.   The VRG noticed a significant change in Papa John's products since 2004.  http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2008issue2/veggieRestaurantChains.htm

I see that PJ's cheeses were made with Chymax.  The above article also says that the Garlic sauces using lactic acid is not considered dairy since it has been fermented.

I know you said the PJ Ingredient List has been updated since then though.

I am going to use a little bit less yeast than the amount you recommended at 0.45% for a one day cold ferment at Reply 31 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg263869.html#msg263869   I don't know if you recall, but my other dough ball seemed to ferment too much in that amount of time.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

In my original research on the PJ dough, I noted that in its promotional materials PJ went from describing its flour as a "high gluten" flour to a "high protein" flour. I took that to mean that either PJ had changed its flour or it was trying to conceal the protein content of the actual flour used. Also as part of my research, I found two earlier versions of the PJ pizza dough, one in about 2001 and the other in about 2003. The circa 2001 version was this one:

Pizza Dough: Bleached, enriched wheat flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, inactive dried yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes. (https://home.comcast.net/~tfcozzo/food/PapaJohns.htm)

The circa 2003 version was as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached, enriched flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes.

Fortunately, I had printed out the circa 2003 version because the link for that version, from a vegan forum, is now dead.

You will note the absence of wheat starch in the above two versions. The wheat starch as an ingredient emerged sometime around 2008, when I received information from PJ on its products.

You will also note that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast. I believe that the inactive dry yeast was dead yeast, or glutathione. The circa 2003 version mentions only yeast, not inactive dry yeast.

I think you will find the use of wheat starch in other pizza products, including frozen pizzas.

Peter

EDIT (7/8/13): the Wayback Machine link that replaces the dead link referenced above is http://web.archive.org/web/20120723105440/http://www.vegfamily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=503&page=2
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 08:51:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

In my original research on the PJ dough, I noted that in its promotional materials PJ went from describing its flour as a "high gluten" flour to a "high protein" flour. I took that to mean that either PJ had changed its flour or it was trying to conceal the protein content of the actual flour used. Also as part of my research, I found two earlier versions of the PJ pizza dough, one in about 2001 and the other in about 2003. The circa 2001 version was this one:

Pizza Dough: Bleached, enriched wheat flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, inactive dried yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes. (https://home.comcast.net/~tfcozzo/food/PapaJohns.htm)

The circa 2003 version was as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached, enriched flour (niacin, iron (reduced), thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), malted barley flour, clear filtered water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, ascorbic acid, (added as dough conditioner), enzymes.

Fortunately, I had printed out the circa 2003 version because the link for that version, from a vegan forum, is now dead.

You will note the absence of wheat starch in the above two versions. The wheat starch as an ingredient emerged sometime around 2008, when I received information from PJ on its products.

You will also note that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast. I believe that the inactive dry yeast was dead yeast, or glutathione. The circa 2003 version mentions only yeast, not inactive dry yeast.

I think you will find the use of wheat starch in other pizza products, including frozen pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me on your original research on the PJ dough that in its promotional material PJ went from describing its flour as a high gluten flour to a high protein flour.  I wasn't following your PJ thread when you posted that.  It is good you printed out the circa 2003 version.  I did note the absence of wheat starch in your post. 

I guess PJ went from a bleached to an unbleached flour because it looks better to customers.  I also noted that the circa 2001 version included inactive dry yeast.  I wonder what the inactive dry yeast, or dead yeast brought to the table in taste of PJ's crusts back then. 

To let you know, I did send an email about the sample of the Whirl product I had asked for and asked why I didn't receive a sample in 2 weeks.  I explained when I requested a sample before I was testing the Whirl product for the application of applying it to the bake rim of a pizza crust (Mellow Mushroom, but I didn't give that name), but I didn't eventually sell that kind of pizza.  I explained that is why I wanted another sample of the Whirl product for testing to see if I could use the Whirl product in making a buttery garlic sauce for cheesesticks I am thinking about offering.  I also asked if any sample of their Whirl product with garlic could be requested.  This is the email I just received a little while ago.

Good morning.

I have forwarded your request to Beth Meyer, the sales rep for your area.  She will contact you regarding the sample.

Thanks!

Beth Meyer did just call me and said she will send me a gallon of the regular Whirl product and a gallon of the Whirl with garlic to test.  Beth said I should received the Whirl products in a week and one half or 2 weeks. 

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

As you can see from the current Pizza Dough ingredients set forth below, not a great deal changed from around 2003:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, wheat starch, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast [fungal or bacterial derivatives NO animal derivatives]. No trans fat.

For some reason, the amount of enzymes were increased (it is higher up in the ingredients list). Maybe it was because of the addition of the wheat starch or possibly a reduction in the amount of damaged starch.

Since the inactive dried yeast in the circa 2001 PJ pizza dough was pretty far down the list, it might have added some flavor to the finished crust but if PJ was using a high gluten flour at the time, it might also have also served to relax the dough in case it was prone to "buckiness". Tom Lehmann discussed various dough relaxers, including dead yeast/glutathione, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4311&p=23405&hilit=#p23405. For our purposes, the use of dead yeast is moot since it apparently is no longer being used in the current PJ pizza dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 12:02:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Norma,

As you can see from the current Pizza Dough ingredients set forth below, not a great deal changed from around 2003:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, wheat starch, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast [fungal or bacterial derivatives NO animal derivatives]. No trans fat.

For some reason, the amount of enzymes were increased (it is higher up in the ingredients list). Maybe it was because of the addition of the wheat starch or possibly a reduction in the amount of damaged starch.

Since the inactive dried yeast in the circa 2001 PJ pizza dough was pretty far down the list, it might have added some flavor to the finished crust but if PJ was using a high gluten flour at the time, it might also have also served to relax the dough in case it was prone to "buckiness". Tom Lehmann discussed various dough relaxers, including dead yeast/glutathione, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4311&p=23405&hilit=#p23405. For our purposes, the use of dead yeast is moot since it apparently is no longer being used in the current PJ pizza dough.

Peter


Peter,

I see the current Pizza Dough ingredients have not changed a great deal since 2003.  Thanks for referencing the post from Tom Lehmann where he discussed various dough relaxers on PMQ Think Tank.  Thanks for your thoughts also about the high gluten flour and using the dead yeast/glutathione.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I removed the two attempted PJ garlic sauces from the fridge this morning.  The one garlic sauce I attempted yesterday did separate more until this morning.  I used a spoon to stir it up and it was then okay.  The other PJ garlic sauce I attempted with the Country Store garlic powder didn't separate at all and never did.  I wonder what is up with using two different garlic powders that one separates and one doesn't.  The garlic sauce I made yesterday didn't taste too strong in the garlic department. 

I mixed the PJ clone dough for the cheesesticks using the blend of KABF and the All Trumps flour.  The final dough temperature was 74.9 degrees F and the dough ball weighed 14.4 ounces or 409 grams.

I mixed only with the flat beater because there wasn't enough dough to use the dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I used the delayed method of adding the soybean oil.  The dough ball went into the fridge at 11:00 AM this morning. 

Norma
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Norma,

As I was going through my files on the PJ dough, I found a printout of Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1786.msg16465.html#msg16465. As you will note from that post, it appears that there was yet another version of the PJ dough, as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, wheat starch.

So, as of about August 30, 2005, it appears that PJ was using wheat starch. If the ingredients were listed by order of predominance, then the amount of wheat starch would have been fairly low.

Peter

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Norma,

According to the article at http://www.westfalia-separator.com/applications/renewable-resources/wheat-starch-wheat-gluten.html, which I found in a footnote of a Wikipedia entry on gluten, it appears that wheat starch is produced from the starch that remains from processing a dough to make dried vital wheat gluten. Presumably, the wheat starch would contain any related damaged starch. That might help explain the addition of more enzyme (alpha amylase) to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combined with flour to make the PJ dough.

None of the above should be of concern to you in making the clone of PJ Cheesesticks using your proposed clones of the PJ Garlic sauce. The best we can do is try to find a flour with the desired overall protein content.

Peter


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Norma,

As I was going through my files on the PJ dough, I found a printout of Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1786.msg16465.html#msg16465. As you will note from that post, it appears that there was yet another version of the PJ dough, as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, wheat starch.

So, as of about August 30, 2005, it appears that PJ was using wheat starch. If the ingredients were listed by order of predominance, then the amount of wheat starch would have been fairly low.

Peter


Peter,

Your post at Reply 9 goes back quite a while.  Was it Randy's version of the American style pizza that got you interested in PJ's pizza?  I see of August 30, 2005 that it appears that PJ was using wheat starch, even if it was fairly low.

Norma,

According to the article at http://www.westfalia-separator.com/applications/renewable-resources/wheat-starch-wheat-gluten.html, which I found in a footnote of a Wikipedia entry on gluten, it appears that wheat starch is produced from the starch that remains from processing a dough to make dried vital wheat gluten. Presumably, the wheat starch would contain any related damaged starch. That might help explain the addition of more enzyme (alpha amylase) to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combined with flour to make the PJ dough.

None of the above should be of concern to you in making the clone of PJ Cheesesticks using your proposed clones of the PJ Garlic sauce. The best we can do is try to find a flour with the desired overall protein content.

Peter




Thanks for citing the article about how wheat starch is produced.  I see that might help explain the addition of more enzyme to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combine with flour to make the PJ dough. 

How is all that going to help me find a flour that I can purchased with the desired overall protein content if I decide to make the cheesesticks to offer at market?  I only have limited sources for flours and don't have access regularly to the Power flour.

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Norma,

Your post at Reply 9 goes back quite a while.  Was it Randy's version of the American style pizza that got you interested in PJ's pizza?

Yes, it was Randy's PJ clone that prompted me to try to come up with a version that I believed would be closer to what PJ was doing. Randy's clone was perfectly fine for a home setting but I felt that his clone dough had too high a hydration and too much yeast for a real PJ clone, and also too much salt and sugar/honey, and maybe not enough oil, and too short a fermentation window. It wasn't until about 2007-early 2008 that I decided to mount a full throated effort to try to come up with a clone of the real PJ dough. You can see from Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg54842.html#msg54842 that I was already heading in that direction at the time of that post. Also, by that time, the dough calculating tools had been created, which made it much easier to conduct cloning experiments.

How is all that going to help me find a flour that I can purchased with the desired overall protein content if I decide to make the cheesesticks to offer at market?  I only have limited sources for flours and don't have access regularly to the Power flour.

As a practical matter what this all means is that you want to either use a single flour, preferably an unbromated flour, that has the desired protein content (e.g., 13.4-13.6%) or a flour (preferably unbromated) with a higher protein content that can be blended with a lower protein flour (unbromated). In both cases, a pinch of ascorbic acid between the thumb and forefinger can be used as a dough conditioner substitute for potassium bromate. If unbromated flours are not available, then bromated flours can be used (but without the ascorbic acid). Examples of standalone flours with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6% include the Remarkable flour (unbromated) and the Supreme flour (unbromated and with ascorbic acid) from General Mills, the Producer flour (bromated) from ConAgra (which is specified for use for making breadsticks), and the Power flour (unbromated) from Pendleton. Since you do not have ready access to such flours, in your case you might want to blend a flour with a protein content in excess of 13.4-13.6% with another flour with a lower protein content to achieve a blend in the 13.4-13.6% protein range. The higher protein flour can include the KASL flour (unbromated) from King Arthur, the All Trumps and Balancer flours (bromated) from GM, the Bouncer flour (bromated or unbromated) from Bay State Milling, and the Kyrol flour (bromated) from ConAgra. The secondary flour in the blend can be just about any flour with a protein content lower than the first flour. The secondary flour can include all-purpose flour and bread flour, in just about any brand provided that the protein content is known. The precise amounts of the two flours for the blend can be calculated using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. Of course, you can always go to someone like ADM and ask them for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as the KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt (as a substitute for fungal amylase) to create a more accurate clone of the PJ flour blend.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,
Yes, it was Randy's PJ clone that prompted me to try to come up with a version that I believed would be closer to what PJ was doing. Randy's clone was perfectly fine for a home setting but I felt that his clone dough had too high a hydration and too much yeast for a real PJ clone, and also too much salt and sugar/honey, and maybe not enough oil, and too short a fermentation window. It wasn't until about 2007-early 2008 that I decided to mount a full throated effort to try to come up with a clone of the real PJ dough. You can see from Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg54842.html#msg54842 that I was already heading in that direction at the time of that post. Also, by that time, the dough calculating tools had been created, which made it much easier to conduct cloning experiments.
As a practical matter what this all means is that you want to either use a single flour, preferably an unbromated flour, that has the desired protein content (e.g., 13.4-13.6%) or a flour (preferably unbromated) with a higher protein content that can be blended with a lower protein flour (unbromated). In both cases, a pinch of ascorbic acid between the thumb and forefinger can be used as a dough conditioner substitute for potassium bromate. If unbromated flours are not available, then bromated flours can be used (but without the ascorbic acid). Examples of standalone flours with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6% include the Remarkable flour (unbromated) and the Supreme flour (unbromated and with ascorbic acid) from General Mills, the Producer flour (bromated) from ConAgra (which is specified for use for making breadsticks), and the Power flour (unbromated) from Pendleton. Since you do not have ready access to such flours, in your case you might want to blend a flour with a protein content in excess of 13.4-13.6% with another flour with a lower protein content to achieve a blend in the 13.4-13.6% protein range. The higher protein flour can include the KASL flour (unbromated) from King Arthur, the All Trumps and Balancer flours (bromated) from GM, the Bouncer flour (bromated or unbromated) from Bay State Milling, and the Kyrol flour (bromated) from ConAgra. The secondary flour in the blend can be just about any flour with a protein content lower than the first flour. The secondary flour can include all-purpose flour and bread flour, in just about any brand provided that the protein content is known. The precise amounts of the two flours for the blend can be calculated using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. Of course, you can always go to someone like ADM and ask them for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as the KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt (as a substitute for fungal amylase) to create a more accurate clone of the PJ flour blend.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for explaining that it was Randy PJ clone that prompted you to try to come up with a version that you believed would be closer to what PJ clone would be.  That sure was some journey you took and still are taking.  I never saw that thread you referenced in that post of yours.   I didn't think about when the dough calculating tools were created.  I can understand how the dough calculating tools made it much easier for you to conduct cloning experiments though. 

Thanks for explaining what you meant about finding a flour with the desired overall protein content.  Thanks also for giving me examples of the flours or four blends I could use.  Just how many flours do you think I can store at market in the tiny space I am in.  I already have problems trying to store the two kinds of flour I use now.  I don't really think I want to go to someone like ADM and ask for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt.  That makes things way too complicated for me.

I am already having too many problems with getting the top and bottom crusts to brown at the same time. 

Norma
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This is how the next iteration of the PJ clone cheesesticks went.  First of all, I did take the PJ cloned dough ball out of the pizza prep fridge for the amount of time I thought the dough ball might need to warm up in about the middle of the afternoon.  It was a busy day yesterday, so it was hard for me to decide when to take the dough ball out to warm up.  My decision when to take it out was a bad decision because we became busy and stayed that way until I sold out of dough balls around 7:00 PM.  The dough ball did look like it had about doubled in size when Steve took it out though.  To me it looked like the dough ball had about tripled in size or more when Steve and I were able to use it to make the cheesesticks. 

I also made another error in that I forgot to dock the skin for the cheesesticks.  I did take my regular dough docker to market yesterday, but somehow forgot to use it.  I used some dustinator flour to coat the dough ball and the dough ball did open easily though.   We used the whole two containers of PJ Garlic sauce to coat the skin.  The PJ Garlic sauce was very fluid this time.  It just ran out of the container.  I grated 4 oz. of LMPS Foremost Farms mozzarella for the cheesesticks this time. 

The PJ Garlic sauce container was weighed with the garlic sauce in and the peel off lid on.  That weighed 31.62 grams.  When the peel off lid was pull off the PJ Garlic sauce weighed 30.92 grams.  There was a tiny amount of the PJ Garlic sauce left in the container.   After the container was rinsed out the container weighed 2.08 grams. 

To get to how the PJ attempted cheesesticks baked on just a regular screen, they sure didn't brown evenly on the top and bottom while on the screen in my deck oven on the bottom deck.  As can be seen the rim of the cheesesticks wanted to start browning and the bottom of the cheesesticks were not browning much at all.  The cheesesticks then were taken off of the screen and placed on the deck.  The top cheese still wasn't browning enough and the bottom of the crust was baked, so the cheesesticks were put back on the screen for the remainder of the bake.  I am not sure how to get the cheesesticks to brown right on the top and bottom at the same time in my deck oven.  The methods I used to bake those cheesesticks sure wouldn't be convenient to use all the time. 

Right after the bake the cheesesticks weighed 1.2.0 lbs, or 510 grams.  Steve cut the cheesesticks into 16 pieces. 

As can be seen the cheesesticks were very greasy and buttery tasting.  I don't mean that is a bad way because Steve, me and my taste testers thought they tasted very good, but PJ cheesesticks really were not that greasy or buttery tasting when I purchased them. 

To comment a little on the 2 attempted garlic sauces I made, Steve thought they tasted good, but nothing like the real PJ Garlic sauce.  PJ Garlic sauce is much more buttery tasting.  Steve and I did not even use any of my garlic sauces for dipping, because the clone attempt at the PJ cheesesticks already were buttery tasting and greasy enough and didn't need any garlic dipping sauce in our opinions.  If I recall right some of the taste testers did use my garlic sauces for dipping.  It was the end of the night and I had a lot to clean up so I didn't pay too much attention to what they were doing, except to note how the taste testers thought my attempt at the PJ cheesesticks tasted.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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Norma,

To the extent that anyone wants to try to emulate the PJ dough without using a single flour with a protein content in the 13.4-13.6% protein range, all that is needed is a flour with a protein content above that range and a second flour with a protein content below that range.

Yesterday I found another interesting article on wheat starch, at http://www.world-grain.com/News/Archive/Wheat%20starch%20and%20Gluten%20Manufacturing.aspx?cck=1 . Although I now better know the perceived benefits of using wheat starch, I still am not sure why PJ uses it. Wheat starch imparts a lighter color to a baked good, so maybe it further complements the lighter crust color that using a bleached flour imparts. From photos I have seen of PJ's pizzas, they don't typically have particularly dark crusts. Maybe that is intentional and represents the preference of its customers.

Peter.

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Norma,

Overall, I think that your PJ clone cheesesticks came out well. However, there are a couple of things that you might want to try next time if you feel that you would like to proceed with this matter.

First, you might reduce the amount of cheese. As you can see from Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, the cheese that PJ uses is not a pure mozzarella cheese such as you used. You actually might get closer to PJ's cheese by using a bagged shredded low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese such as sold at retail in supermarkets. As noted below, your baked cheesestick pizza weight was a bit on the high side. Reducing the amount of cheese might help bring the final weight back into balance. And it might also reduce the grease factor.

Second, you might try baking the cheesestick pizza directly on the stone surface of your deck oven until you get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more screens or disks to lift the cheesestick pizza off of the stone surface and try to get the desired top crust/cheese coloration. In my standard electric home oven, I really never got particularly good results baking pizzas on a screen with the screen in direct contact with the stone. I did better by using either the screen or the stone, but not both at the same time.

Third, if you felt that the "butter" flavor was too much, next time you can try reducing the amount of PJ Garlic sauce to 1.50 ounces.

Based on the numbers you posted, I calculated that the weight of the unbaked cheesestick pizza was (14.4 ounces x 28.25) [dough] + 2 (31.62-2.08) [PJ Garlic sauce] + (4 x 28.35) [cheese] = 580.72 grams (20.48 ounces). I believe that you meant the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces (1 pound two ounces) rather than 1.2 pounds, so I used the 510 grams figure as being the more probable value. On that basis, the weight loss during baking was 34 grams (1.20 ounces), or 12.18%. The last cheesestick pizza you made and discussed at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260886.html#msg260886 sustained a weight loss of about 13%. So, it appears that you are getting fairly consistent numbers out of your deck oven.

For your information, the weight of the contents of the mini-tub of PJ's Garlic sauce is 31.62-2.08 = 29.54 grams, or 1.042 ounces. That is quite close to what is stated on the peel-off label for the PJ Garlic sauce. By any chance, did you try to convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurement?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Yesterday I found another interesting article on wheat starch, at http://www.world-grain.com/News/Archive/Wheat%20starch%20and%20Gluten%20Manufacturing.aspx?cck=1 . Although I now better know the perceived benefits of using wheat starch, I still am not sure why PJ uses it. Wheat starch imparts a lighter color to a baked good, so maybe it further complements the lighter crust color that using a bleached flour imparts. From photos I have seen of PJ's pizzas, they don't typically have particularly dark crusts. Maybe that is intentional and represents the preference of its customers.

Peter.


Peter,

That article you referenced was very interesting about wheat starch.  The other night I was also searching about the patents for how to make wheat starch and saw that the Martin process is very complicated.  I read some of those patents, but they were way over my head. :-D 

Maybe wheat starch does impart the lighter crust color that bleach flour imparts.  I don't think PJ's has dark crusts either.

Do you think I should try to get a sample of wheat starch to play around with, or don't you think it would be worth the bother?

Norma

Always working and looking for new information!

Offline norma427

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Norma,

To the extent that anyone wants to try to emulate the PJ dough without using a single flour with a protein content in the 13.4-13.6% protein range, all that is needed is a flour with a protein content above that range and a second flour with a protein content below that range.


Peter.


Norma,

Overall, I think that your PJ clone cheesesticks came out well. However, there are a couple of things that you might want to try next time if you feel that you would like to proceed with this matter.

First, you might reduce the amount of cheese. As you can see from Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, the cheese that PJ uses is not a pure mozzarella cheese such as you used. You actually might get closer to PJ's cheese by using a bagged shredded low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese such as sold at retail in supermarkets. As noted below, your baked cheesestick pizza weight was a bit on the high side. Reducing the amount of cheese might help bring the final weight back into balance. And it might also reduce the grease factor.

Second, you might try baking the cheesestick pizza directly on the stone surface of your deck oven until you get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more screens or disks to lift the cheesestick pizza off of the stone surface and try to get the desired top crust/cheese coloration. In my standard electric home oven, I really never got particularly good results baking pizzas on a screen with the screen in direct contact with the stone. I did better by using either the screen or the stone, but not both at the same time.

Third, if you felt that the "butter" flavor was too much, next time you can try reducing the amount of PJ Garlic sauce to 1.50 ounces.

Based on the numbers you posted, I calculated that the weight of the unbaked cheesestick pizza was (14.4 ounces x 28.25) [dough] + 2 (31.62-2.08) [PJ Garlic sauce] + (4 x 28.35) [cheese] = 580.72 grams (20.48 ounces). I believe that you meant the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces (1 pound two ounces) rather than 1.2 pounds, so I used the 510 grams figure as being the more probable value. On that basis, the weight loss during baking was 34 grams (1.20 ounces), or 12.18%. The last cheesestick pizza you made and discussed at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260886.html#msg260886 sustained a weight loss of about 13%. So, it appears that you are getting fairly consistent numbers out of your deck oven.

For your information, the weight of the contents of the mini-tub of PJ's Garlic sauce is 31.62-2.08 = 29.54 grams, or 1.042 ounces. That is quite close to what is stated on the peel-off label for the PJ Garlic sauce. By any chance, did you try to convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurement?

Peter



Peter,

I do want to proceed to see if I can make the PJ cheesesticks for market.  I see at Reply 31 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg263869.html#msg263869 you told me I could try the Occident and the All Trumps flour and you gave me the amounts to use for that blend.  Since they are two flours I do have at market, I will try that blend for next week.

In Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260942.html#msg260942 you told me I could try 4 ounces of LMPS and it would still would be okay for the cheesestick.  I can try to reduce the amount of cheese though.  I tried the John Martin's bagged shredded low moisture, part-skin mozzarella cheese on my last attempt and I wasn't pleased with the way that cheese melted or tasted.  That is why I tried the low moisture, part skim mozzarella from Foremost Farms on this attempt.  I really don't think the grease factor was from the mozzarella I used, but from the PJ Garlic sauce.  It was very greasy coming out of those containers.  I will try less of the PJ Garlic sauce the next time.

I will try baking the cheesestick directly on the stone surface of my deck oven until I get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more of the screens, or disks to finish the baked.  Thanks for telling me what gave you better results. 

You are right that I meant to post the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces.  I was tired when reading that and writing it down.  Steve and I both thought what the heck about that weight, but both were too tired to go any further with trying to understand it.  It now makes sense to me. 

I did not convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurements.  I had those instructions in the bag where I had my scales, but by that time of the night I forgot all about doing that.  I will purchase some more PJ Garlic sauce and do that next week, or either this week at home.

Do you have any idea how I am going to make a home version of the PJ Garlic sauce?  I think that task is very hard and am not sure what to try next.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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