Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 22141 times)

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Offline norma427

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Norma,

As I was going through my files on the PJ dough, I found a printout of Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1786.msg16465.html#msg16465. As you will note from that post, it appears that there was yet another version of the PJ dough, as follows:

Pizza Dough: Unbleached enriched wheat flour (wheat flour, malted barley flour, ascorbic acid, enzyme, niacin, iron as ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, sugar, soybean oil, salt, yeast, wheat starch.

So, as of about August 30, 2005, it appears that PJ was using wheat starch. If the ingredients were listed by order of predominance, then the amount of wheat starch would have been fairly low.

Peter

Peter,

Your post at Reply 9 goes back quite a while.  Was it Randy's version of the American style pizza that got you interested in PJ's pizza?  I see of August 30, 2005 that it appears that PJ was using wheat starch, even if it was fairly low.

Norma,

According to the article at http://www.westfalia-separator.com/applications/renewable-resources/wheat-starch-wheat-gluten.html, which I found in a footnote of a Wikipedia entry on gluten, it appears that wheat starch is produced from the starch that remains from processing a dough to make dried vital wheat gluten. Presumably, the wheat starch would contain any related damaged starch. That might help explain the addition of more enzyme (alpha amylase) to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combined with flour to make the PJ dough.

None of the above should be of concern to you in making the clone of PJ Cheesesticks using your proposed clones of the PJ Garlic sauce. The best we can do is try to find a flour with the desired overall protein content.

Peter



Thanks for citing the article about how wheat starch is produced.  I see that might help explain the addition of more enzyme to work on that damaged starch when the wheat starch is combine with flour to make the PJ dough. 

How is all that going to help me find a flour that I can purchased with the desired overall protein content if I decide to make the cheesesticks to offer at market?  I only have limited sources for flours and don't have access regularly to the Power flour.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

Your post at Reply 9 goes back quite a while.  Was it Randy's version of the American style pizza that got you interested in PJ's pizza?
Yes, it was Randy's PJ clone that prompted me to try to come up with a version that I believed would be closer to what PJ was doing. Randy's clone was perfectly fine for a home setting but I felt that his clone dough had too high a hydration and too much yeast for a real PJ clone, and also too much salt and sugar/honey, and maybe not enough oil, and too short a fermentation window. It wasn't until about 2007-early 2008 that I decided to mount a full throated effort to try to come up with a clone of the real PJ dough. You can see from Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg54842.html#msg54842 that I was already heading in that direction at the time of that post. Also, by that time, the dough calculating tools had been created, which made it much easier to conduct cloning experiments.

How is all that going to help me find a flour that I can purchased with the desired overall protein content if I decide to make the cheesesticks to offer at market?  I only have limited sources for flours and don't have access regularly to the Power flour.
As a practical matter what this all means is that you want to either use a single flour, preferably an unbromated flour, that has the desired protein content (e.g., 13.4-13.6%) or a flour (preferably unbromated) with a higher protein content that can be blended with a lower protein flour (unbromated). In both cases, a pinch of ascorbic acid between the thumb and forefinger can be used as a dough conditioner substitute for potassium bromate. If unbromated flours are not available, then bromated flours can be used (but without the ascorbic acid). Examples of standalone flours with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6% include the Remarkable flour (unbromated) and the Supreme flour (unbromated and with ascorbic acid) from General Mills, the Producer flour (bromated) from ConAgra (which is specified for use for making breadsticks), and the Power flour (unbromated) from Pendleton. Since you do not have ready access to such flours, in your case you might want to blend a flour with a protein content in excess of 13.4-13.6% with another flour with a lower protein content to achieve a blend in the 13.4-13.6% protein range. The higher protein flour can include the KASL flour (unbromated) from King Arthur, the All Trumps and Balancer flours (bromated) from GM, the Bouncer flour (bromated or unbromated) from Bay State Milling, and the Kyrol flour (bromated) from ConAgra. The secondary flour in the blend can be just about any flour with a protein content lower than the first flour. The secondary flour can include all-purpose flour and bread flour, in just about any brand provided that the protein content is known. The precise amounts of the two flours for the blend can be calculated using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. Of course, you can always go to someone like ADM and ask them for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as the KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt (as a substitute for fungal amylase) to create a more accurate clone of the PJ flour blend.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,
Yes, it was Randy's PJ clone that prompted me to try to come up with a version that I believed would be closer to what PJ was doing. Randy's clone was perfectly fine for a home setting but I felt that his clone dough had too high a hydration and too much yeast for a real PJ clone, and also too much salt and sugar/honey, and maybe not enough oil, and too short a fermentation window. It wasn't until about 2007-early 2008 that I decided to mount a full throated effort to try to come up with a clone of the real PJ dough. You can see from Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5721.msg54842.html#msg54842 that I was already heading in that direction at the time of that post. Also, by that time, the dough calculating tools had been created, which made it much easier to conduct cloning experiments.
As a practical matter what this all means is that you want to either use a single flour, preferably an unbromated flour, that has the desired protein content (e.g., 13.4-13.6%) or a flour (preferably unbromated) with a higher protein content that can be blended with a lower protein flour (unbromated). In both cases, a pinch of ascorbic acid between the thumb and forefinger can be used as a dough conditioner substitute for potassium bromate. If unbromated flours are not available, then bromated flours can be used (but without the ascorbic acid). Examples of standalone flours with a protein content of about 13.4-13.6% include the Remarkable flour (unbromated) and the Supreme flour (unbromated and with ascorbic acid) from General Mills, the Producer flour (bromated) from ConAgra (which is specified for use for making breadsticks), and the Power flour (unbromated) from Pendleton. Since you do not have ready access to such flours, in your case you might want to blend a flour with a protein content in excess of 13.4-13.6% with another flour with a lower protein content to achieve a blend in the 13.4-13.6% protein range. The higher protein flour can include the KASL flour (unbromated) from King Arthur, the All Trumps and Balancer flours (bromated) from GM, the Bouncer flour (bromated or unbromated) from Bay State Milling, and the Kyrol flour (bromated) from ConAgra. The secondary flour in the blend can be just about any flour with a protein content lower than the first flour. The secondary flour can include all-purpose flour and bread flour, in just about any brand provided that the protein content is known. The precise amounts of the two flours for the blend can be calculated using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. Of course, you can always go to someone like ADM and ask them for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as the KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt (as a substitute for fungal amylase) to create a more accurate clone of the PJ flour blend.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining that it was Randy PJ clone that prompted you to try to come up with a version that you believed would be closer to what PJ clone would be.  That sure was some journey you took and still are taking.  I never saw that thread you referenced in that post of yours.   I didn't think about when the dough calculating tools were created.  I can understand how the dough calculating tools made it much easier for you to conduct cloning experiments though. 

Thanks for explaining what you meant about finding a flour with the desired overall protein content.  Thanks also for giving me examples of the flours or four blends I could use.  Just how many flours do you think I can store at market in the tiny space I am in.  I already have problems trying to store the two kinds of flour I use now.  I don't really think I want to go to someone like ADM and ask for a sample of wheat starch and use that with an unbromated flour such as KASL blended with KABF or KAAP and a bit of ascorbic acid and diastatic malt.  That makes things way too complicated for me.

I am already having too many problems with getting the top and bottom crusts to brown at the same time. 

Norma

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This is how the next iteration of the PJ clone cheesesticks went.  First of all, I did take the PJ cloned dough ball out of the pizza prep fridge for the amount of time I thought the dough ball might need to warm up in about the middle of the afternoon.  It was a busy day yesterday, so it was hard for me to decide when to take the dough ball out to warm up.  My decision when to take it out was a bad decision because we became busy and stayed that way until I sold out of dough balls around 7:00 PM.  The dough ball did look like it had about doubled in size when Steve took it out though.  To me it looked like the dough ball had about tripled in size or more when Steve and I were able to use it to make the cheesesticks. 

I also made another error in that I forgot to dock the skin for the cheesesticks.  I did take my regular dough docker to market yesterday, but somehow forgot to use it.  I used some dustinator flour to coat the dough ball and the dough ball did open easily though.   We used the whole two containers of PJ Garlic sauce to coat the skin.  The PJ Garlic sauce was very fluid this time.  It just ran out of the container.  I grated 4 oz. of LMPS Foremost Farms mozzarella for the cheesesticks this time. 

The PJ Garlic sauce container was weighed with the garlic sauce in and the peel off lid on.  That weighed 31.62 grams.  When the peel off lid was pull off the PJ Garlic sauce weighed 30.92 grams.  There was a tiny amount of the PJ Garlic sauce left in the container.   After the container was rinsed out the container weighed 2.08 grams. 

To get to how the PJ attempted cheesesticks baked on just a regular screen, they sure didn't brown evenly on the top and bottom while on the screen in my deck oven on the bottom deck.  As can be seen the rim of the cheesesticks wanted to start browning and the bottom of the cheesesticks were not browning much at all.  The cheesesticks then were taken off of the screen and placed on the deck.  The top cheese still wasn't browning enough and the bottom of the crust was baked, so the cheesesticks were put back on the screen for the remainder of the bake.  I am not sure how to get the cheesesticks to brown right on the top and bottom at the same time in my deck oven.  The methods I used to bake those cheesesticks sure wouldn't be convenient to use all the time. 

Right after the bake the cheesesticks weighed 1.2.0 lbs, or 510 grams.  Steve cut the cheesesticks into 16 pieces. 

As can be seen the cheesesticks were very greasy and buttery tasting.  I don't mean that is a bad way because Steve, me and my taste testers thought they tasted very good, but PJ cheesesticks really were not that greasy or buttery tasting when I purchased them. 

To comment a little on the 2 attempted garlic sauces I made, Steve thought they tasted good, but nothing like the real PJ Garlic sauce.  PJ Garlic sauce is much more buttery tasting.  Steve and I did not even use any of my garlic sauces for dipping, because the clone attempt at the PJ cheesesticks already were buttery tasting and greasy enough and didn't need any garlic dipping sauce in our opinions.  If I recall right some of the taste testers did use my garlic sauces for dipping.  It was the end of the night and I had a lot to clean up so I didn't pay too much attention to what they were doing, except to note how the taste testers thought my attempt at the PJ cheesesticks tasted.

Norma 

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Norma

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Norma

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Norma,

To the extent that anyone wants to try to emulate the PJ dough without using a single flour with a protein content in the 13.4-13.6% protein range, all that is needed is a flour with a protein content above that range and a second flour with a protein content below that range.

Yesterday I found another interesting article on wheat starch, at http://www.world-grain.com/News/Archive/Wheat%20starch%20and%20Gluten%20Manufacturing.aspx?cck=1 . Although I now better know the perceived benefits of using wheat starch, I still am not sure why PJ uses it. Wheat starch imparts a lighter color to a baked good, so maybe it further complements the lighter crust color that using a bleached flour imparts. From photos I have seen of PJ's pizzas, they don't typically have particularly dark crusts. Maybe that is intentional and represents the preference of its customers.

Peter.

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Norma,

Overall, I think that your PJ clone cheesesticks came out well. However, there are a couple of things that you might want to try next time if you feel that you would like to proceed with this matter.

First, you might reduce the amount of cheese. As you can see from Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, the cheese that PJ uses is not a pure mozzarella cheese such as you used. You actually might get closer to PJ's cheese by using a bagged shredded low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese such as sold at retail in supermarkets. As noted below, your baked cheesestick pizza weight was a bit on the high side. Reducing the amount of cheese might help bring the final weight back into balance. And it might also reduce the grease factor.

Second, you might try baking the cheesestick pizza directly on the stone surface of your deck oven until you get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more screens or disks to lift the cheesestick pizza off of the stone surface and try to get the desired top crust/cheese coloration. In my standard electric home oven, I really never got particularly good results baking pizzas on a screen with the screen in direct contact with the stone. I did better by using either the screen or the stone, but not both at the same time.

Third, if you felt that the "butter" flavor was too much, next time you can try reducing the amount of PJ Garlic sauce to 1.50 ounces.

Based on the numbers you posted, I calculated that the weight of the unbaked cheesestick pizza was (14.4 ounces x 28.25) [dough] + 2 (31.62-2.08) [PJ Garlic sauce] + (4 x 28.35) [cheese] = 580.72 grams (20.48 ounces). I believe that you meant the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces (1 pound two ounces) rather than 1.2 pounds, so I used the 510 grams figure as being the more probable value. On that basis, the weight loss during baking was 34 grams (1.20 ounces), or 12.18%. The last cheesestick pizza you made and discussed at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260886.html#msg260886 sustained a weight loss of about 13%. So, it appears that you are getting fairly consistent numbers out of your deck oven.

For your information, the weight of the contents of the mini-tub of PJ's Garlic sauce is 31.62-2.08 = 29.54 grams, or 1.042 ounces. That is quite close to what is stated on the peel-off label for the PJ Garlic sauce. By any chance, did you try to convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurement?

Peter

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Norma,

Yesterday I found another interesting article on wheat starch, at http://www.world-grain.com/News/Archive/Wheat%20starch%20and%20Gluten%20Manufacturing.aspx?cck=1 . Although I now better know the perceived benefits of using wheat starch, I still am not sure why PJ uses it. Wheat starch imparts a lighter color to a baked good, so maybe it further complements the lighter crust color that using a bleached flour imparts. From photos I have seen of PJ's pizzas, they don't typically have particularly dark crusts. Maybe that is intentional and represents the preference of its customers.

Peter.

Peter,

That article you referenced was very interesting about wheat starch.  The other night I was also searching about the patents for how to make wheat starch and saw that the Martin process is very complicated.  I read some of those patents, but they were way over my head. :-D 

Maybe wheat starch does impart the lighter crust color that bleach flour imparts.  I don't think PJ's has dark crusts either.

Do you think I should try to get a sample of wheat starch to play around with, or don't you think it would be worth the bother?

Norma



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Norma,

To the extent that anyone wants to try to emulate the PJ dough without using a single flour with a protein content in the 13.4-13.6% protein range, all that is needed is a flour with a protein content above that range and a second flour with a protein content below that range.


Peter.

Norma,

Overall, I think that your PJ clone cheesesticks came out well. However, there are a couple of things that you might want to try next time if you feel that you would like to proceed with this matter.

First, you might reduce the amount of cheese. As you can see from Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046/topicseen.html#msg260046, the cheese that PJ uses is not a pure mozzarella cheese such as you used. You actually might get closer to PJ's cheese by using a bagged shredded low moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese such as sold at retail in supermarkets. As noted below, your baked cheesestick pizza weight was a bit on the high side. Reducing the amount of cheese might help bring the final weight back into balance. And it might also reduce the grease factor.

Second, you might try baking the cheesestick pizza directly on the stone surface of your deck oven until you get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more screens or disks to lift the cheesestick pizza off of the stone surface and try to get the desired top crust/cheese coloration. In my standard electric home oven, I really never got particularly good results baking pizzas on a screen with the screen in direct contact with the stone. I did better by using either the screen or the stone, but not both at the same time.

Third, if you felt that the "butter" flavor was too much, next time you can try reducing the amount of PJ Garlic sauce to 1.50 ounces.

Based on the numbers you posted, I calculated that the weight of the unbaked cheesestick pizza was (14.4 ounces x 28.25) [dough] + 2 (31.62-2.08) [PJ Garlic sauce] + (4 x 28.35) [cheese] = 580.72 grams (20.48 ounces). I believe that you meant the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces (1 pound two ounces) rather than 1.2 pounds, so I used the 510 grams figure as being the more probable value. On that basis, the weight loss during baking was 34 grams (1.20 ounces), or 12.18%. The last cheesestick pizza you made and discussed at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260886.html#msg260886 sustained a weight loss of about 13%. So, it appears that you are getting fairly consistent numbers out of your deck oven.

For your information, the weight of the contents of the mini-tub of PJ's Garlic sauce is 31.62-2.08 = 29.54 grams, or 1.042 ounces. That is quite close to what is stated on the peel-off label for the PJ Garlic sauce. By any chance, did you try to convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurement?

Peter


Peter,

I do want to proceed to see if I can make the PJ cheesesticks for market.  I see at Reply 31 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg263869.html#msg263869 you told me I could try the Occident and the All Trumps flour and you gave me the amounts to use for that blend.  Since they are two flours I do have at market, I will try that blend for next week.

In Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25844.msg260942.html#msg260942 you told me I could try 4 ounces of LMPS and it would still would be okay for the cheesestick.  I can try to reduce the amount of cheese though.  I tried the John Martin's bagged shredded low moisture, part-skin mozzarella cheese on my last attempt and I wasn't pleased with the way that cheese melted or tasted.  That is why I tried the low moisture, part skim mozzarella from Foremost Farms on this attempt.  I really don't think the grease factor was from the mozzarella I used, but from the PJ Garlic sauce.  It was very greasy coming out of those containers.  I will try less of the PJ Garlic sauce the next time.

I will try baking the cheesestick directly on the stone surface of my deck oven until I get the desired bottom crust coloration and then use one or more of the screens, or disks to finish the baked.  Thanks for telling me what gave you better results. 

You are right that I meant to post the finished cheesestick pizza weight to be 18 ounces.  I was tired when reading that and writing it down.  Steve and I both thought what the heck about that weight, but both were too tired to go any further with trying to understand it.  It now makes sense to me. 

I did not convert the contents of one of the PJ mini-tubs of Garlic sauce to a volume measurements.  I had those instructions in the bag where I had my scales, but by that time of the night I forgot all about doing that.  I will purchase some more PJ Garlic sauce and do that next week, or either this week at home.

Do you have any idea how I am going to make a home version of the PJ Garlic sauce?  I think that task is very hard and am not sure what to try next.

Norma

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Do you think I should try to get a sample of wheat starch to play around with, or don't you think it would be worth the bother?
Norma,

That is up to you. It was more curiosity that prompted me to research the wheat starch matter further. Using the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx, and assuming that the PJ dough ingredients are in the right order by weight, it appears that one teaspoon of wheat starch weighs only 2.78 grams. So, I am not sure that it is worth the effort to try to recreate the PJ flour blend when only a small amount would be used for a single dough ball.  And you don't want ADM or other source to be sending you a 50-lb bag of wheat starch.

Peter

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Do you have any idea how I am going to make a home version of the PJ Garlic sauce?  I think that task is very hard and am not sure what to try next.
Norma,

My thinking is that if you want Product A to look and taste like Product B, the best starting point is to try to recreate Product B, especially when you know the ingredients that are used to make Product B. So, in this case, I would wait for the McCormick product to see if that product does the trick when combined with the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine spread and some garlic powder. If that combination doesn't prove satisfactory, then I would have to rethink the whole exercise to see if there is any point in proceeding. If you get the McCormick product, you might post your results at the main PJ thread where you left off to try the non-clones of the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

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Norma,

That is up to you. It was more curiosity that prompted me to research the wheat starch matter further. Using the Nutrition Facts at https://store.nexternal.com/cbfi2000/storefront/wheat-starch-p14.aspx, and assuming that the PJ dough ingredients are in the right order by weight, it appears that one teaspoon of wheat starch weighs only 2.78 grams. So, I am not sure that it is worth the effort to try to recreate the PJ flour blend when only a small amount would be used for a single dough ball.  And you don't want ADM or other source to be sending you a 50-lb bag of wheat starch.

Peter

Peter,

I know your curiosity prompts you to research anything related to pizza that you don't already know a lot about and wheat starch is no different than any things you have researched.   ;D

I on the other hand I like to experiment with different ingredients I never tried for pizza, just to see what happens.  I guess I am the crazy person that wants to see what different ingredients do in pizza doughs.   :-D  I might contact ADM to see if I can get a sample of the wheat starch to play around with.  On the CamBrooke Foods website and on other places on the web there is an interesting pizza dough. http://www.cambrookefoods.com/recipes_and_tips/recipe_detail.php?id=15 I don't use Metamucil, but my mother has some I could try if I got a sample of wheat starch.  The baking powder part combined with yeast and non-dairy liquid creamer (warmed) also sounds interesting to me. :-\  I also could see if wheat starch provides a delicate texture, flavor and light color like ADM says.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-Wheat-and-Starch-Gluten-Sheet.pdf  I guess if I contact ADM about a sample I would request a sample of Edigel 201 wheat starch. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Starches/Pages/default.aspx  Is that correct?  And no, I don't want a 50 lb. Of wheat starch though.

Norma

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Norma,

My thinking is that if you want Product A to look and taste like Product B, the best starting point is to try to recreate Product B, especially when you know the ingredients that are used to make Product B. So, in this case, I would wait for the McCormick product to see if that product does the trick when combined with the Parkay Squeeze soft margarine spread and some garlic powder. If that combination doesn't prove satisfactory, then I would have to rethink the whole exercise to see if there is any point in proceeding. If you get the McCormick product, you might post your results at the main PJ thread where you left off to try the non-clones of the PJ Garlic sauce.

Peter

Peter,

I think what you posted is right about trying to clone a PJ Garlic sauce.  I will call McCormick again today, because I have not gotten a call back from them as of today. 

Norma

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I might contact ADM to see if I can get a sample of the wheat starch to play around with.  On the CamBrooke Foods website and on other places on the web there is an interesting pizza dough. http://www.cambrookefoods.com/recipes_and_tips/recipe_detail.php?id=15 I don't use Metamucil, but my mother has some I could try if I got a sample of wheat starch.  The baking powder part combined with yeast and non-dairy liquid creamer (warmed) also sounds interesting to me. :-\  I also could see if wheat starch provides a delicate texture, flavor and light color like ADM says.  http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/Documents/ADM-Wheat-and-Starch-Gluten-Sheet.pdf  I guess if I contact ADM about a sample I would request a sample of Edigel 201 wheat starch. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/Starches/Pages/default.aspx  Is that correct?  And no, I don't want a 50 lb. Of wheat starch though.
Norma,

The recipe you cited appears at several places on the Internet. I saw it when I did my initial search but hesitated to mention it to you for fear that you would want to try it. But trying it is actually a good idea since it will tell you what a pizza is like when its principal component is starch, with little protein or gluten. It is a high carb product with a lot of dietary fiber, low in fat and sodium and no cholesterol, so it is perhaps a healthy product too.

As for the ADM wheat product to request, I agree with your choice. If you order a sample online, you might want to mention the application (pizza dough) in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

The recipe you cited appears at several places on the Internet. I saw it when I did my initial search but hesitated to mention it to you for fear that you would want to try it. But trying it is actually a good idea since it will tell you what a pizza is like when its principal component is starch, with little protein or gluten. It is a high carb product with a lot of dietary fiber, low in fat and sodium and no cholesterol, so it is perhaps a healthy product too.

As for the ADM wheat product to request, I agree with your choice. If you order a sample online, you might want to mention the application (pizza dough) in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Peter

Peter,

When I searched some about wheat starch I saw different places that cited that recipe.  I like the one at http://pkuawareness.com/2012/06/21/wheat-starch-pizza-dough/  Since it said it is great for breadsticks, bagels, and soft pretzels I thought that was right up my alley.  The chemical leavening system in combination with yeast also interests me and has since the Sukie pizzas.  I never could understand those darn chemical leavening systems though. 

Good to hear it might be a healthy pizza too. 

Thanks for telling me that you agree with my choice.  I will mention the application for pizza dough in case there is a better wheat starch to use for that purpose.

Norma

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Norma,

One of the reasons, maybe even the main one, that I prepare detailed responses is to have a record to refer back to if necessary somewhere down the line. Usually, upon rereading my older posts, the subject matter comes back to me fairly quickly.

Peter


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Norma,

One of the reasons, maybe even the main one, that I prepare detailed responses is to have a record to refer back to if necessary somewhere down the line. Usually, upon rereading my older posts, the subject matter comes back to me fairly quickly.

Peter

Peter,

I know you always prepare detailed responses so you have a record to refer back to if necessary.  You do retain what you posted very well.  I can only wish my brain was half as smart as your is.

Norma

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I had talked to the salesperson at Hometown Provisions, Inc. on Monday about the case of garlic dipping sauce in the small containers they listed in their product catalog.  She said she would have to get back to me about the brand of that product.  I found out today that the product Hometown Provisions, Inc. carries is the Grandioso garlic butter replacement, but was told that right now they are out of that product until sometime next week. http://www.venturafoods.com/FS_ProductPortfolioProds.cfm?c=7&s=21&s2=61   She told me today that they usually carry that product and have it in stock, but had a higher then average amount of cases that were purchased last week. 

I also called McCormick again and another lady called me back right away after I left a message.  She said she didn't know what happened to my sample of the buttery flavoring, but would send me the Nutrition Fact sheet and also would see about why my sample wasn't sent out yet.  I then received an email from the other lady and she said I should have my sample early next week.

I called ADM and the man that I was directed to said they don't send samples of the EdigelTM 201 Wheat Starch and he doesn't even know if they produce that product anymore.  He said only large food processing companies purchase the wheat starch in pallet amounts and that is why they don't give any samples of any wheat starches. 

Norma

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Norma,

The Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.

It is interesting that you got a Nutrition Facts sheet for the McCormick product since the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20 says that the product has no significant nutritional value.

Peter

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Norma,

The Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.

It is interesting that you got a Nutrition Facts sheet for the McCormick product since the Amazon website at http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012272X8/?tag=pizzamaking-20 says that the product has no significant nutritional value.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall that the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.  I have to find out the price for a case of Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce.  I have to look, but I think Jon said to add something else to the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce.  If a case of the Grandioso product is cheap enough I might not have to make a garlic sauce each week if the PJ breadsticks turn out okay in my deck oven.

Since I got a Nutritional Fact sheet for the McCormick product how does it stack up when I try it?

Norma

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Peter,

I did request a sample of FibersymŽ RW from MGP http://www.mgpingredients.com/search/?keywords=Fibersym%C2%AE+RW I hope that was a good choice to request.  More requests can be made though.

Norma

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I did recall that the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce is the one that Jon (c0mpl3x) recommended in another thread as an alternative to the PJ Garlic sauce.  I have to find out the price for a case of Grandioso min-tub garlic sauce.  I have to look, but I think Jon said to add something else to the Grandioso mini-tub garlic sauce.  If a case of the Grandioso product is cheap enough I might not have to make a garlic sauce each week if the PJ breadsticks turn out okay in my deck oven.

Since I got a Nutritional Fact sheet for the McCormick product how does it stack up when I try it?
Norma,

Jon said to use margarine with the Grandioso product, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258575.html#msg258575 .

I'm not sure I understand your question about the McCormick product. Can you expand upon your question?

Peter

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I did request a sample of FibersymŽ RW from MGP http://www.mgpingredients.com/search/?keywords=Fibersym%C2%AE+RW I hope that was a good choice to request.  More requests can be made though.
Norma,

I believe that what you have requested is not the type of wheat starch that PJ uses. What you have ordered is a "resistant starch". As such, it is a starch that is high in dietary fiber and frequently used to increase the dietary fiber of foods to which it is added. I researched resistant starches a while back when I was trying to determine whether Home Run Inn was using such a product to boost the dietary fiber of its pizzas. Since HRI did not specify that it used resistant starches, as is required by the FDA, I concluded that HRI was not using such a product.

Peter

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Norma,

Jon said to use margarine with the Grandioso product, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258575.html#msg258575 .

I'm not sure I understand your question about the McCormick product. Can you expand upon your question?

Peter

Peter,

I did search after I last posted and saw that post by Jon.  Thanks for referencing the link, so anyone can see what Jon said.

What I meant by my question was how much of the McCormick product do you think would be need to be added to the Parkay Squeeze when I receive the sample.

Norma