Author Topic: Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned  (Read 14711 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Thanks also for telling me how to start out the experiments.  I didn't think trying to use the Whirl products would pose so many problems in trying to create a garlic sauce.
Norma,

This is the fun and interesting part of the exercise. I never intended to become an expert on margarine products, but that is how you learn.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

This the fun and interesting part of the exercise. I never intended to become an expert on margarine products, but that is how you learn.

Peter

Peter,

I also learn in your studying ingredients of any product, but it is you that finds the exercise fun and interesting.  I never would be able to understand what you do. 

I went to the Giant supermarket near where I live and they only had the Blue Bonnet margarine in addition to the cheaper Guaranteed Value (I guess Giant's brand) and no Parkay margarine, so I purchased the Blue Bonnet and Guaranteed Value margarine.  I didn't feel like going to another supermarket to find the Parkay.  Do you also think the Guaranteed Value margarine is okay to use?  I will make an attempt at a garlic sauce with the Whirl later this evening with one of the above margarine products I found at the Giant supermarket.

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

The print for the ingredients for the two products is too small for my aging eyeballs but I believe that the Guaranteed Value margarine product is 52% oil and that the Blue Bonnet margarine product is 53% oil. This is based on the Total Fat numbers. If you look on the packaging materials, I think you will find the percent numbers.

The Guaranteed Value product looks to be like the Fiesta margarine product that I mentioned in an earlier post.

I think both products should be adequate for your purposes.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

The print for the ingredients for the two products is too small for my aging eyeballs but I believe that the Guaranteed Value margarine product is 52% oil and that the Blue Bonnet margarine product is 53% oil. This is based on the Total Fat numbers. If you look on the packaging materials, I think you will find the percent numbers.

The Guaranteed Value product looks to be like the Fiesta margarine product that I mentioned in an earlier post.

I think both products should be adequate for your purposes.

Peter

Peter,

I think you did well and really don't have aging eyeballs.  You were right! :P  I did recall about what you posted about the Fiesta margarine product.

Thanks for posting that you think both products should be adequate for my purposes.  I will see what I can do.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I decided to try the Garlic Whirl with the softened Guaranteed Value Margarine product.  I used 2 oz. of the Garlic Whirl and first added 1 oz. of the softened Guaranteed Value Margarine.  The blend was too runny and too garlicky tasting so I added another 1 oz. Of the Guaranteed Value Margarine.  The consistency is a little to thin, but not bad.  I am going to let it sit in the fridge overnight.  I think it might become a little thicker in consistency until tomorrow morning.  The taste was good and I will compare this to the container of PJ Garlic sauce that is opened tomorrow morning.  The color of the garlic sauce is a little lighter in my photo than it really is in person.  The mouthfeel seems good.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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The garlic sauce made with the Garlic Whirl product and the Guaranteed Value margarine product turned out tasty and did thicken after being in the fridge overnight.  The color of the garlic sauce I made is a little lighter than the PJ Garlic sauce, but the taste of the garlic sauce I made is very similar to the PJ Garlic sauce.  The only thing that tastes a little different is my garlic sauce has more of a salt taste.  I don't think that can be avoided.  The mouthfeel of both garlic sauces are about the same.

I think I am going to use the regular Whirl and make a double batch this morning and add the Shurfine garlic powder.  I will then use the garlic sauce on garlic knots if it turns out okay.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 07:50:00 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

There are a few other things that perhaps bear keeping in mind about the products we have been discussing. For example, the lower the oil content of a given margarine product, the more water it contains. The PJ Garlic sauce contains water but the Whirl products do not. So, as the water content of the margarine product you are using goes up, the more water ends up in the blend, and may even thin it a bit. On the other hand, you end up adding less oil to the blend, and less wetness as a result, and the mouthfeel might be a bit better. So, it is a tradeoff between the water and oil that ends up in the final blend. And since the Whirl products only have soy lecithin as an emulsifier, and not the heavy duty mono and diglyceride emulsifiers, there is not an optimum emulsification of the water and oil. These were the considerations I was tossing around in my head in trying to find a good balance between all of the ingredients and effects we were looking for.

As for the salt, you are pretty much stuck with it since they are fixed in the products you are blending. The water in the blend might dilute the salt a bit but perhaps not enough to notice it on the palate. You can perhaps compensate for the higher salt levels in the blend by using less salt in the dough. It is also possible that the hydrolyzed soy protein and the autolyzed yeast extract used in the Whirl products add a flavor profile that is salt-like in nature.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

There are a few other things that perhaps bear keeping in mind about the products we have been discussing. For example, the lower the oil content of a given margarine product, the more water it contains. The PJ Garlic sauce contains water but the Whirl products do not. So, as the water content of the margarine product you are using goes up, the more water ends up in the blend, and may even thin it a bit. On the other hand, you end up adding less oil to the blend, and less wetness as a result, and the mouthfeel might be a bit better. So, it is a tradeoff between the water and oil that ends up in the final blend. And since the Whirl products only have soy lecithin as an emulsifier, and not the heavy duty mono and diglyceride emulsifiers, there is not an optimum emulsification of the water and oil. These were the considerations I was tossing around in my head in trying to find a good balance between all of the ingredients and effects we were looking for.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your additional thoughts that should be keep in mind about the products we have been discussing.  I really don't think water or oil needs added to the products I am trying right now.  The mouthfeel is fine and I think as the garlic sauce warms up it will become thinner again, much like the PJ garlic sauce does sometimes. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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As for the salt, you are pretty much stuck with it since they are fixed in the products you are blending. The water in the blend might dilute the salt a bit but perhaps not enough to notice it on the palate. You can perhaps compensate for the higher salt levels in the blend by using less salt in the dough. It is also possible that the hydrolyzed soy protein and the autolyzed yeast extract used in the Whirl products add a flavor profile that is salt-like in nature.

Peter

Another PJ cheesestick dough was made this morning using the Occident flour and the All Trumps blend.  The dough was nice again and I sure don't know how this happened, but the dough ball weighs 14.5 oz. 

I also mixed another attempt of the garlic sauce using 4 oz. of the regular Whirl product and 4 oz. of the Guaranteed Value margarine product.  I first added 1.20 grams of Shurfine garlic powder (and I didn't think that would be enough) so after mixing another 1.20 grams of Shurfine garlic powder was added.  The taste is very good, but it isn't thick enough again, but since I found out refrigerating does help it get thicker it was placed in the fridge.  I really don't know why, but this attempt wasn't as salty as my attempt last evening.  The Nutrition Facts on both Whirl product says there is the same amount of sodium in a serving size, so I really don't know what this attempt isn't as salty. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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I really don't know why, but this attempt wasn't as salty as my attempt last evening.  The Nutrition Facts on both Whirl product says there is the same amount of sodium in a serving size, so I really don't know what this attempt isn't as salty. 
Norma,

Actually, there is less sodium in one ounce of either of the Whirl products than there is in one ounce of the PJ Garlic sauce (90 mg difference). That is why I wondered whether the hydrolyzed soy protein and the autolyzed yeast extract were imparting a salt-like taste. Or maybe it is the absence of the garlic flavor in the second Whirl product that is having a similar effect even though garlic powder has a minuscule amount of sodium.

Peter


Offline norma427

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Norma,

Actually, there is less sodium in one ounce of either of the Whirl products than there is in one ounce of the PJ Garlic sauce (90 mg difference). That is why I wondered whether the hydrolyzed soy protein and the autolyzed yeast extract were imparting a salt-like taste. Or maybe it is the absence of the garlic flavor in the second Whirl product that is having a similar effect even though garlic powder has a minuscule amount of sodium.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I got mixed-up and didn't look at the Ingredient list for the Garlic Whirl and the Regular Whirl in comparison to the PJ Garlic sauce.  I also can't compare when adding two different margarine products like the Parkay Squeeze and the Guaranteed Value margarine.  My brain is not like yours.   

I have no idea why the garlic sauce made with the Garlic Whirl and the garlic sauce made with the Regular Whirl taste so much different in the salt department, but I tasted both of them again today at market and the garlic sauce with the Regular Whirl still did taste less salty.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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The cheesesticks garlic sauce made with the regular Whirl product, the Guaranteed Value Margarine and the Shurfine garlic powder tasted good on the cheesesticks yesterday and was good as a dipping sauce for the cheesesticks. 

The dough ball for the cheesestick pizza didn't have any bubbles on the top of the dough ball, but I think it was warmed-up too much at a hot ambient room temperature yesterday.  We became too busy to use the dough ball to make the cheesestick pizza when I wanted to use it.  The dough was docked, but I guess it wasn't docked heavily enough since the cheesestick pizza rim rose too much when baking on the deck.  The cheesestick pizza was baked on the bottom deck of the oven and then a screen was added underneath the cheesestick pizza when the bottom looked brown enough.  The rim edges of the cheesesticks became a little too brown, but they didn't taste burnt.  I used the Guaranteed Value of shredded LMPS for this cheesestick pizza.  The LMPS shredded cheese didn't brown enough, but the taste of the cheese was okay.  The baked cheesestick pizza weighed 17 oz.     

The first photo is of the garlic sauce melted I made for the garlic knots yesterday.  The garlic sauce  was just put on the top of my oven on a stainless steel container and it melted nicely to put the garlic knots in.  The garlic knots did taste good with the garlic sauce I made with the Whirl product, Guaranteed Value margarine and the Shurfine garlic powder.   

The second photo is of the two garlic sauces I made taken right from the fridge.  The last photo is of the PJ Garlic sauce on the left, the garlic sauce with the Garlic Whirl and the garlic sauce with regular Whirl taken right out of the deli case without being warmed-up at all.  It can be seen they looked very similar and the mouthfeel was the same.

Steve and my taste testers also commented that the garlic sauce made with the Garlic Whirl was saltier than the PJ Garlic sauce and also saltier than the other garlic sauce I made with the regular Whirl product.  They also agreeded that the garlic sauce made with the Garlic Whirl was too garlicky tasting when compared to the PJ Garlic sauce.  The garlic sauce made with the regular Whirl could have had a little more garlic powder added to make it taste like the PJ Garlic Sauce.

I would be satisfied to use the garlic sauce made with the regular Whirl and the Guaranteed Value margarine as a dipping sauce, or the sauce for the cheesestick pizza, if I continue to pursue to make the cheesesticks at market if a little more garlic powder is added.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Norma,

In order to dilute the garlic flavor of the Whirl garlic product, you can increase the amount of the Guaranteed Value margarine product relative to the Whirl garlic product. For example, you might use two ounces of the Whirl garlic product and four or six ounces of the Guaranteed Value margarine product, with any required tweaking of the flavors to compensate for the changes introduced by the new blend. I do not know how the saltiness will play out since the sodium contents of the Whirl garlic product and the Guaranteed Value margarine product are fairly close to each other (110 mg for 14 grams of the Whirl products, and 95 mg for 14 grams of the Guaranteed Value margarine product). Increasing the amount of Guaranteed Value margarine product relative to the Whirl products will alter the ratio of water to oil in the final blend.

With four+ gallons of Whirl products, and with a cheap ($0.75/lb) margarine product, you should be in pretty good shape cost-wise for some time if you decide to proceed with clone cheesesticks and/or garlic knots.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

In order to dilute the garlic flavor of the Whirl garlic product, you can increase the amount of the Guaranteed Value margarine product relative to the Whirl garlic product. For example, you might use two ounces of the Whirl garlic product and four or six ounces of the Guaranteed Value margarine product, with any required tweaking of the flavors to compensate for the changes introduced by the new blend. I do not know how the saltiness will play out since the sodium contents of the Whirl garlic product and the Guaranteed Value margarine product are fairly close to each other (110 mg for 14 grams of the Whirl products, and 95 mg for 14 grams of the Guaranteed Value margarine product). Increasing the amount of Guaranteed Value margarine product relative to the Whirl products will alter the ratio of water to oil in the final blend.

With four+ gallons of Whirl products, and with a cheap ($0.75/lb) margarine product, you should be in pretty good shape cost-wise for some time if you decide to proceed with clone cheesesticks and/or garlic knots.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me what I can do with the Whirl Garlic product.  I know it might require some tweaks maybe with water and oil.

I do want to proceed with the clone cheesesticks for market and also might try to sell garlic knots again.  Yesterday when giving samples of garlic knots, at least 5 people wanted to purchase some of the garlic knots and many other people said they were really good.  Steve and I just explained that the garlic knots really weren't for sale right now, but they were to show how our pizza crust dough tastes.  The garlic knots given for samples were tiny though.  The new garlic sauce with the Whirl and margarine blend was a lot better than my former garlic stuff I covered them with. 

Thanks again for you help on the garlic sauces!  I know I will be in good shape for awhile with all of those Whirl samples.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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It looks like I can not get a sample of the McCormick buttery flavoring.  I emailed Lisa last week and asked an inquiry if I am still able to get a sample of the McCormick buttery flavoring.  This is the email I receive this morning.

Hi Norma

I was out that week and the person covering my desk advised you would be able to receive this without knowing the procedures.

Unfortunately, mccormick does not sample the EXTRACTS.

Can I help you find a distributor that stocks it?

Lisa

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Lisa checked for me today in my area to see any distributor is carrying the McCormick extract butter flavor imitation.  This is what she replied in an email.

Well
No one in area is currently stocking
Is there a distributor you use often – not just for mccormick but for
Other things
 
Many distributors buy through DOT,
If you have a staple distributor
I would ask them to order it for you through DOT—that would be the cheapest way to go

Lisa
 
I would think I would really have to have to purchase the McCormick product in really large amounts for any of my distributors to carry it, so I guess that product is off the list for now.  Lisa gave me prices for the 6 in a case of the McCormick product, but large amounts need to be ordered.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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I didn't find time to make a PJ cheesestick pizza dough this morning, but I thought of another idea while I was at market today.  I sure have no idea if it will work or not, but I am going to take one of my regular dough balls and roll it out, dock the skin and spread the garlic sauce I made tonight on the skin, and top with Foremost Farms LMPS.  I am going to cut it like a pizza, instead of it being cut like cheesesticks.  I will add my tomato sauce in one little container and in another little container add some of the garlic sauce for dipping the slices.  Steve and I were talking last week about how I would sell the ends of the cheesticks, in as much as they aren't as nice as the middle slices of cheesesticks.  We didn't come up with any ideas, but maybe what I thought of today might work out.  :-\

Tonight 8 ounces of the Whirl was used along with 8 ounces of the Guaranteed Value margarine.  Then 7.30 grams of the Shurfine garlic powder was added and all the ingredients were stirred with a whisk.  It tastes good to me, but I will have to wait until tomorrow to see how it really tastes in comparison with the PJ garlic sauce.  I do have garlic powder at market, so more could be added. 

I am not sure how much garlic sauce to spread on the cheese stick pizza, or how much LMPS to add, but will just wing it.  The cheesestick pizza out of my regular dough ball should be able to be baked on my deck without any screens. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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These are how the experiments went when using my regular dough balls to make the cheesestick pizzas yesterday.

The first dough ball was rolled out some with a rolling pin then hand stretched and docked.  The garlic sauce I made was used to dress the skin and also Foremost Farms LMPS mozzarella.  The cheesestick pizza was placed right on the deck, but a screen was needed to finish the bake. No bubbles formed on the rim, or in the middle of the cheesestick pizza.  What somewhat surprised Steve and I was the PJ dough I had used before and my regular dough really didn't give any different taste in the crust.  The cheesestick pizza slices were also soft just like PJ cheesesticks are soft.  I sure don't know, but think the garlic sauce gives the most taste instead of the crust. 

The second cheesestick pizza had a different method in docking the skin, because Steve wanted to see what would happen if the skin was docked heavily, then rolled lightly some more with a rolling pin and then docked one time again lightly.  The second dough ball was also rolled some with a rolling pin and then hand stretched the rest of the way too.  We thought that experiment was also interesting because bubbles did form in the rim and some other bubbles formed while baking.  I used the bubble popper to get rid of some of those bubbles, but there still were some after the bake.  The second cheesestick pizza we used my regular cheese I use on my other pizzas.  The parts that we thought were weird about that was we really couldn't taste any difference in using different cheeses and my regular cheese didn't brown as well in the bake.  A screen also have to be put under the cheesestick pizza in the second bake.  Both cheesestick pizzas were 14" out of my regular dough balls that weigh 1.20 lbs.

The garlic sauce I made when compared to PJ garlic sauce was my garlic sauce tasted less salty, but that wasn't a bad thing in Steve's and my opinions.  Steve and I liked my garlic sauce.  The garlic part of my garlic sauce tasted fine.

Norma 
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Offline norma427

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Norma
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