Author Topic: NY Style ? Dunno  (Read 1184 times)

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Offline doughjockey

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NY Style ? Dunno
« on: June 22, 2013, 08:09:10 PM »
After some tweaking of my new gas fired pizza oven, many thanks to Scott123 for his generous assistance in that process, my third attempt at NY Style was this delicious marinated in garlic and thyme raw prawn pie. The dough is Lehmann NY Style, 48 hr cold ferment. Cooked at 689 F it came out in 4 minutes.
Whether it is NY Style or not I cannot say, for starters, it is not 16", only 12", dough weight is a mere 9.5 oz and it was cooked on the other side of the Pacific.
What I can say is that it was a knockout, far far better than anything I have managed to cook in some 12 years of home pizza making. I am grateful to the forum for the introduction to this wonderful pizza style, one which will be a much anticipated weekly event in this house.

Gus


Not even perfectly round.....





A bit scorched as well....



But it was puffy and light, very thin, crispy base....



Yummm !

« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 09:41:18 PM by doughjockey »


Online tinroofrusted

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 07:04:03 PM »
Beautiful!  Nice prawns too.

Offline wahoo88

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 08:23:15 PM »
Get use out of that pizza oven while it's still winter down there!  The pie looks great.  I love how quickly the crust tapers down while maintaining the essential poofiness.  It seems to eliminate that area of pizza that doesn't really know whether it wants to be crust or not.

Offline scott123

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 03:08:37 AM »
Looking great, Gus!

I'm glad you're finally getting the most out of your. I'm curious, did you insulate it?  4 minutes is a fantastic bake time.

This is pretty much NY style pizza.  The thickness, imo, pushes it a bit towards American, but there's nothing wrong with that.  One of these days, if you get a chance, try dialing back the dough ball size for a thinner crust if you want something a bit more authentic. Getting into the habit of using the dough calculator and the thickness factor field is a good idea.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

For NY, .075 is a worthy goal.

This looks like it could be unmalted flour.  If that's the case, you might want to play around with another day or two of fermentation.

Offline doughjockey

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 07:21:45 PM »
Looking great, Gus!

I'm glad you're finally getting the most out of your. I'm curious, did you insulate it?  4 minutes is a fantastic bake time.

This is pretty much NY style pizza.  The thickness, imo, pushes it a bit towards American, but there's nothing wrong with that.  One of these days, if you get a chance, try dialing back the dough ball size for a thinner crust if you want something a bit more authentic. Getting into the habit of using the dough calculator and the thickness factor field is a good idea.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

For NY, .075 is a worthy goal.

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I did insulate it, and now can get it up to 380C, which during our joke of a winter makes baking, even for a few minutes outside a great pleasure. We don't seem to have the flour choices here which you guys enjoy. I used a baker's flour, which is 11% protein and added 40grams of gluten to a kg. Resulted in a much better crust. There is a small perforated box supplied with the unit, which is used to add smoke, gotta try that with maybe a couple of apple chips.
I have to admit that the thickness factor confuses me a bit. Is that not also dependant on how well/badly the dough is opened up, so the skill of the doughjockey ?
Finally received the infra red temp sensor, am I looking for a higher temp on the bricks than the oven ambient temp, and is there an ideal ?

Regards,
Gus

This looks like it could be unmalted flour.  If that's the case, you might want to play around with another day or two of fermentation.

Offline doughjockey

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 07:30:35 PM »
Get use out of that pizza oven while it's still winter down there!  The pie looks great.  I love how quickly the crust tapers down while maintaining the essential poofiness.  It seems to eliminate that area of pizza that doesn't really know whether it wants to be crust or not.

Thanks wahoo, this hobby is so enjoyable, we now do pizza more than once a week, has to be one of the word's great complete foods, once you add a beer or two.......... I am travelling soon to Naples to eat my way around that town.

Gus

Offline wahoo88

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 09:20:06 AM »
Naples! I'm very envious. Take a look at this Slice link.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/serious-eats-guide-to-eating-pizza-in-naples-napoli-italy-neapolitan-pizza.html?ref=search

I must scroll through the article at least once a month.

Offline scott123

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 07:15:25 PM »
Hey Scott,

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I did insulate it, and now can get it up to 380C, which during our joke of a winter makes baking, even for a few minutes outside a great pleasure. We don't seem to have the flour choices here which you guys enjoy. I used a baker's flour, which is 11% protein and added 40grams of gluten to a kg. Resulted in a much better crust. There is a small perforated box supplied with the unit, which is used to add smoke, gotta try that with maybe a couple of apple chips.
I have to admit that the thickness factor confuses me a bit. Is that not also dependant on how well/badly the dough is opened up, so the skill of the doughjockey ?
Finally received the infra red temp sensor, am I looking for a higher temp on the bricks than the oven ambient temp, and is there an ideal ?

Regards,
Gus


380C?  That's great that you were able to hit that.  It looks like this oven may end up being worth what you paid for it  ;D

Unless you have absolutely no other choice, you should really try to avoid vital wheat gluten.  Read through this entire thread:

Bread Flour

I saw a couple 12%-12.5% retail options, although 13% would be better. Start calling bakeries and see if any of them will sell you a big bag of 12.7%-13.2% flour. Even with a cut for them, you should still save some money off of retail.

It is a bit harder to stretch the dough further, but, if you're looking for something authentic, that's what you should be striving towards.  Less dough stretched further.  A huge part of thinly stretched dough, though, is gluten development, and there's a good chance you might not get that with 11% protein flour + gluten, so you might wait for thinner stretches until you find a stronger flour.

And keep your eye open for Italian 12.5% protein flour as well. I generally dissuade people from using 00 for NY, but, there's ways to correct for it's shortcomings and a 12.5% flour is always better than 11%.

The temperature is less about an ideal and more about what temp bakes the pizza in your desired time frame.  It's a good idea to take readings of the roof, and different areas of the hearth, to make sure that the pizza won't bake unevenly. The more data you have, the easier it is to recreate the same results on future bakes.

Offline doughjockey

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 10:20:06 PM »
  It looks like this oven may end up being worth what you paid for it  ;D

Hi Scott,

Best $225 I ever spent ! Thanks for the info and the link to OZ flour discussion. When I return from Naples, and other places, I will do further research into this flour business.

Regards, Gus


Offline doughjockey

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 10:22:51 PM »
Naples! I'm very envious. Take a look at this Slice link.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2013/01/serious-eats-guide-to-eating-pizza-in-naples-napoli-italy-neapolitan-pizza.html?ref=search

I must scroll through the article at least once a month.

Thanks Wahoo,

Your link is very helpful, thanks very much. I will post some photos of the best ones - according to my amateur status of course !

Regards,
Gus


Offline duegatti

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2013, 10:43:31 PM »
This is pretty much NY style pizza.  The thickness, imo, pushes it a bit towards American, but there's nothing wrong with that.  One of these days, if you get a chance, try dialing back the dough ball size for a thinner crust if you want something a bit more authentic. Getting into the habit of using the dough calculator and the thickness factor field is a good idea.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

For NY, .075 is a worthy goal.


If I could commit a brief and slight highjack - I'm about to return to pizza after a couple of years off.  I recall discussion that the thickness factor range in the Lehmann dough calculator - 0.1 to 0.105 - is really higher than desirable.  In light of your recommendation of 0.075, could you please comment on this history, and if there is a different, preferred range?

My baseline is 64% hydration of King Arthur bread flour, 0.4% IDY, 2% salt, and 1.5% oil.  I will probably cook at about 500 F, as I have issue with burning the crust at higher temperature on the Big Green Egg.

If  moderator should feel that this ought to be a separate thread, then by all means.

Many thanks,

Joe

Offline scott123

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2013, 06:42:27 AM »
I recall discussion that the thickness factor range in the Lehmann dough calculator - 0.1 to 0.105 - is really higher than desirable.  In light of your recommendation of 0.075, could you please comment on this history, and if there is a different, preferred range?

For the last 100 years, ever since the advent of the manufacturing age, good regional food has been under attack. Corporations, in the very beginning, began as small business. As they grew, they became regional entities.  A regional corporation will cater to regional tastes but, as the corporations grew larger they had to cater to national/multi-national palettes.  Foods with unique regional attributes, with strong character, lost those traits as they went through the process of being packaged for multi-national consumption. The corporations were/are polishing off all the sharp edges of cultural identity, all while paying strict attention to their financial bottom line and saving as much money as they can with cheaper ingredients.  You can't walk down the frozen aisle at the supermarket and not get a glimpse at how powerful the forces of homogenization, gentrification and commodification are. You can't turn on a television and not come to the understanding that culinary cultural identity is breathing it's dying breath.

There have been a handful of movements worldwide that have attempted to counteract these forces, but they are feeble and few.  Cask conditioned ale, for instance, is the most wonderful drink ever known to man and it can't be mass produced, can't be commodified, can't be advertised.  There was a movement in the 90s in the UK to try to resurrect it, and, while partly successful, access to real ale is still incredibly limited.  Slow food began in California as a means of battling corporatization, and, while it has it's adherents, it's really only an isolated foodie kind of thing and is a drop in the bucket compared to fast food. The French, with their rich culinary heritage, fought this scourge valiantly for a few decades, but even they eventually caved in.  As long as you have kids watching television (which, these days, is pretty much everywhere), good regionally authentic food doesn't stand a chance.

I bring all this up, because .1 TF is chain pizza. It has no correlation whatsoever with the pizza in NY- either historically or presently. It is a thorough warped, debased and commodified entity.  On a conscious level, most forum members would never dream of making chain pizza- consciously, most of them understand how crappy fast food can be, and, yet, when flour gets combined with water, the subconscious corporate imprinting is so powerful, so pervasive, chain pizza gets made.

When the chains emerged on the market, they couldn't compete with independents on a crust level, so they went crazy with toppings. If you put a load of toppings on a traditionally thin NY style crust, everything slides off.  So the chains took a breadier/sturdier direction. As the chains, with the power of TV advertising behind them, started taking business away from the independents, the independents- at least, the independents outside the NY area, all emulated this sturdier/more topping centric approach.

There's other influences at play in the history of .1 thickness factor, but corporate influence tops the list.  That and the skill factor.  Whoever came up with the recommendation was most likely a home baker themselves and didn't have stretching skills to achieve anything below .1- and was targeting their advice towards others with similar skin stretching experience.

I think that if one polled the areas outside of NY, the pizza they describe as 'NY style' might overwhelming be in the .1 range. If this was just a numbers game- the more people that define it a particular way, the stronger the definition, then sure, NY style should be a football shaped monstrosity.  But it's not about numbers- it's about cultural identity, history and the forces that have been/are defiling it.

My baseline is 64% hydration of King Arthur bread flour, 0.4% IDY, 2% salt, and 1.5% oil.  I will probably cook at about 500 F, as I have issue with burning the crust at higher temperature on the Big Green Egg.


One word: Deflection.  That's the only way you're going to get a BGE to give you good top browning with fast NY style bakes. You've got to incorporate some kind of pan under the stone to direct heat up to the ceiling to brown the top of the pie.  Take a look at my bottom heat configuration

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21503.msg217026.html#msg217026

You can try lowering the ceiling as well, but I'd add deflection first.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 06:52:10 AM by scott123 »

Offline duegatti

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2013, 07:03:45 AM »
So . . .  ? < 0.075 < ?'

Offline TomN

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 11:48:50 AM »
doughjockey,

I haven't had a shrimp/prawns pizza in a long time. Your making me hungry for one. Thanks for sharing your photos and comments.

TomN
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 11:55:42 AM by TomN »

Offline scott123

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Re: NY Style ? Dunno
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 02:44:25 PM »
So . . .  ? < 0.075 < ?'

If you're asking for a range, then I'd say .07-.075.


 

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