Author Topic: Can a KA sourdough starter be used in combination with IDY for a great tasting p  (Read 6632 times)

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Offline jvp123

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Tom,

Thanks for telling me you have never used just the KA starter culture in a dough.  I know you told me the reason you got involved with your method in the first place was because it gave you flexibility. 

I know using just a starter takes some time to understand.  I have no idea what to try next to keep the flavor of the sourdough in the final pizza, or have the better flavor from the KA starter culture along with the IDY.  I think you told me you did try 10% of the KA starter culture and didn't really liked the results.

I noticed when using Terry's (tdeane) formulation(starter with IDY), and using 20% and 15% KA starter with IDY in my market formulation it changed my final texture too much for my taste testers and me. 

Norma

Norma,
Did you ever end up making a NY ish pizza using starter and IDY that you liked better than just using IDY?   Or just starter and no IDY?
Just curious.
Thanks!
Jeff

Jeff


Offline norma427

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Norma,
Did you ever end up making a NY ish pizza using starter and IDY that you liked better than just using IDY?   Or just starter and no IDY?
Just curious.
Thanks!
Jeff

Jeff,

I really liked the pizza made with the KA starter culture and IDY at Reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33515.msg333022#msg333022 and the next posts.  I am not sure if the final pizza taste was better from the KA starter culture and IDY, or if the pizza was better from the different formulation I used.  The pizza could have been better from using the Blackstone too. 

I really would like to know if the KA starter culture and IDY would make a decent pizza for market (using about the same formulation I am using).  Really that has not happened, and I don't know what to try next.

Norma

Offline jvp123

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I'm probably confused and asking a silly question  ::) but, why not do a lower percent of starter  (like lets say 2%) and then just do an RT ferment for a couple of days and not use any IDY?

The pie did look amazing though at reply 44  :drool: so I'm not saying it didn't come out great - just trying to understand the process.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:22:26 AM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline norma427

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I'm probably confused and asking a silly question  ::) but, why not do a lower percent of starter  (like lets say 2%) and then just do an RT ferment for a couple of days and not use any IDY?

The pie did look amazing though at reply 44  :drool: so I'm not saying it didn't come out great - just trying to understand the process.

Jeff,

You are not asking a silly question.  I think I could make a decent NY style dough with only a sourdough culture.  If I did that it would be controlled temperature fermented using Craig's chart by what percentage of starter I would be using and the about the temperature the dough would ferment at.  I would probably do a bulk and ball control temperature ferment.  I have made NY style doughs with a sourdough culture.

To explain a little more about this thread and why it might have confused anyone, I was trying Tom's idea to use a sourdough culture along with IDY for insurance, and also doing a cold ferment to see if the flavor of sourdough still could be tasted in the pizza, or to see if the flavor of the crust would be better.

Tom told me all of his taste testers like his doughs (mostly Chicago thin pizzas) better with the KA sourdough starter and IDY, and his doughs are cold fermented.  Tom did not find a dough formulation for his NY style dough that he likes better yet.  I thought maybe I could use the KA sourdough starter with IDY at market and do a cold ferment with my basic dough formulation.  That is why I am lost at what to try.  I think in the end using a sourdough starter at market even with IDY might be too complicated even if I could find a good percentage of sourdough to try with IDY.  Maybe Tom will come up with a decent formulation.

Did I confuse you more?  :-D If I did I will try to explain more.

Norma

Offline jvp123

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Jeff,

You are not asking a silly question.  I think I could make a decent NY style dough with only a sourdough culture.  If I did that it would be controlled temperature fermented using Craig's chart by what percentage of starter I would be using and the about the temperature the dough would ferment at.  I would probably do a bulk and ball control temperature ferment.  I have made NY style doughs with a sourdough culture.

To explain a little more about this thread and why it might have confused anyone, I was trying Tom's idea to use a sourdough culture along with IDY for insurance, and also doing a cold ferment to see if the flavor of sourdough still could be tasted in the pizza, or to see if the flavor of the crust would be better.

Tom told me all of his taste testers like his doughs (mostly Chicago thin pizzas) better with the KA sourdough starter and IDY, and his doughs are cold fermented.  Tom did not find a dough formulation for his NY style dough that he likes better yet.  I thought maybe I could use the KA sourdough starter with IDY at market and do a cold ferment with my basic dough formulation.  That is why I am lost at what to try.  I think in the end using a sourdough starter at market even with IDY might be too complicated even if I could find a good percentage of sourdough to try with IDY.  Maybe Tom will come up with a decent formulation.

Did I confuse you more?  :-D If I did I will try to explain more.

Norma

Didn't confuse me at all  :).  You made perfect sense.  I suspected it was because there was the thought that cold fermenting might add even MORE flavor and also that cold fermenting would be easier for you at market - just pop it in the fridge as opposed to worrying about controlling "room temp." which is not as simple as it sounds.

Thanks so much norma.

BTW - I am going to try a 2% Ishchia (no IDY), 48 hr room temp pie next with 100% KABF for the Blackstone. That's why I asked. Will report back later on a different thread with results. 
Jeff

Offline norma427

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BTW - I am going to try a 2% Ishchia (no IDY), 48 hr room temp pie next with 100% KABF for the Blackstone. That's why I asked. Will report back later on a different thread with results.

Jeff,

I will be looking forward to your post about your pie with 2% Ischia and a 48 hr room temperature ferment.

Norma

Offline mitchjg

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BTW - I am going to try a 2% Ishchia (no IDY), 48 hr room temp pie next with 100% KABF for the Blackstone. That's why I asked. Will report back later on a different thread with results.

Jeff:

2% at room temperature for 48 hours is likely too much starter.  You will need to chill down to 64ish or make some other adjustment.  At room temperature, 2% is right for a 24ish hour dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0

- Mitch
Mitch

Offline jvp123

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Jeff:

2% at room temperature for 48 hours is likely too much starter.  You will need to chill down to 64ish or make some other adjustment.  At room temperature, 2% is right for a 24ish hour dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0

- Mitch

Thanks Mitch - I appreciate you watching my back!   I definitely used the term "room temp" too loosely.  I think of room temp sometimes as when I'm not using my 40F fridge.  I meant in the 64 F range per the ferm. table which i keep laminated by my bedside  ;D.
Jeff

Offline jvp123

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Mitch,

Thanks nice comments about the pie and my toes!  It you want to know anything else I did, let me know.  I used Craig's method of frothing the KA sourdough starter into the water and also used his method of making the dough ball smooth and not sticky. 

Norma

Hi Norma,
I have a question if I may. What was your percentage of starter?  Like 1.5%?
Also, how do you compute your fermentation time when combining bakers yeast and starter?
Thank you,
Jeff
Jeff


Offline jvp123

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Whoops I meant to ask if you used about 10% Starter not 1.5%  ::)
Jeff

Offline norma427

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Hi Norma,
I have a question if I may. What was your percentage of starter?  Like 1.5%?
Also, how do you compute your fermentation time when combining bakers yeast and starter?
Thank you,
Jeff

Whoops I meant to ask if you used about 10% Starter not 1.5%  ::)

Jeff,

You can see what formulation and mixing methods I used at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33515.msg332900#msg332900 I really had no idea when the KA sourdough starter and IDY dough ball would be ready.  At Reply 44 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33515.msg333022#msg333022 it can be see I posted that I put the dough in the oven with the light on to speed up the fermentation process.

I really don't recall what percentage of the KA starter I used right now.  If you want me to look tomorrow if I still have the old print out of that formulation I can look for it.

Norma

Offline jvp123

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Its ok Norma.  You don't have to go back to your files.  I know you are busy.  I sort of backed into it 10% because I had seen your formula at at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33515.msg332900#msg332900.
I'll just try it at 10% with .18 IDY.  The pie looked nice for sure!   

As far as the fermentation time - I'll sort of wing it.  I have a decent understanding now of what the dough should look like when ready.  10% starter shows as 28 hours at 63F.  I'll try something like 24 hours at 63 since there is a little added IDY.

I'll definitely take off the chauflector and try the next bake at around 550-600F and just leave it low and leave it alone.

You had good results so I'm not giving up.   I'm determined to make this work.
Jeff

Offline norma427

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Its ok Norma.  You don't have to go back to your files.  I know you are busy.  I sort of backed into it 10% because I had seen your formula at at Reply 39 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33515.msg332900#msg332900.
I'll just try it at 10% with .18 IDY.  The pie looked nice for sure!   

As far as the fermentation time - I'll sort of wing it.  I have a decent understanding now of what the dough should look like when ready.  10% starter shows as 28 hours at 63F.  I'll try something like 24 hours at 63 since there is a little added IDY.

I'll definitely take off the chauflector and try the next bake at around 550-600F and just leave it low and leave it alone.

You had good results so I'm not giving up.   I'm determined to make this work.

Jeff,

I found the print out from the Preferment Dough Calculation Tool and I did use 10% of the KA starter along with 0.18% IDY.  Good luck with your bake!

Norma

Offline mitchjg

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Norma and All:

In reading through the Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani, a section in the book caused me to think about this thread.

Tony has a recipe in the book for "Organic Dough" in the "Alternative Dough" section.  The flours in the recipe are, as you would expect, organic. 

More to the point, the dough is created with a combination of commercial yeast and starter.  The yeast is ADY, at
019% of total flour (including the flour in the starter).  The starter, which is at 100% hydration is at about 27% of the total flour (including the flour in the starter).

Once the dough is mixed, he indicates it should be refrigerated for 24 to 48 hours.

He indicates this dough can be used in any recipe that calls for his Master Dough.  The Master Dough is used for the NY Style Pizza in the book.  Therefore, Tony indicates that sourdough can be used in combination with commercial yeast to produce a NY Style dough.  And, going back to the title of the thread, I assume he would say it is great tasting!!!!

Best regards,
Mitch
Mitch

Offline norma427

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Norma and All:

In reading through the Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani, a section in the book caused me to think about this thread.

Tony has a recipe in the book for "Organic Dough" in the "Alternative Dough" section.  The flours in the recipe are, as you would expect, organic. 

More to the point, the dough is created with a combination of commercial yeast and starter.  The yeast is ADY, at
019% of total flour (including the flour in the starter).  The starter, which is at 100% hydration is at about 27% of the total flour (including the flour in the starter).

Once the dough is mixed, he indicates it should be refrigerated for 24 to 48 hours.

He indicates this dough can be used in any recipe that calls for his Master Dough.  The Master Dough is used for the NY Style Pizza in the book.  Therefore, Tony indicates that sourdough can be used in combination with commercial yeast to produce a NY Style dough.  And, going back to the title of the thread, I assume he would say it is great tasting!!!!

Best regards,
Mitch

Mitch,

Thanks for telling us that after reading through the Pizza Bible from Tony Gemignani, a section cause you to think of this thread.

Interesting about what you posted.  Are you going to try the dough created with a combination of commercial yeast and starter?  If you are I would be interested in your results.  I had thought about using the Ischia starter in combination with a commercial yeast in different amounts, but never got around to playing around with that.

Norma

Offline mitchjg

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Hi Norma:

I think there are 2 things in play here that I can identify.  First is the combination of commercial yeast and sourdough starter in the proportions that Tony describes.  Second is Tony's overall workflow and the rest of his recipe/proportions (hydration, salt, etc.).

On the first, his is not all that different than what I have done before.  I think he calls for more starter and less yeast.  I would have to try and look it up but I do not think I have gone as far as 27%.  I think I have gone as far as 20%.

So,I think the answer is "yes." 

But, first I want to see if I can "master" his Master Dough and feel successful at making his dough with just commercial yeast.  Once (and if) I find that I am confident and that I like it, then I am sure I will make a dough with his starter/yeast mix and check it out.  I have always felt that I was getting good results with a combination of the two.  I know I have liked the combination (in general, not every time) better than my commercial yeast only pies. 

But, I think my sourdough only pies may edge them both out.  For me, it is also scheduling (not that I am particularly busy).  By doing a cold ferment, and including commercial yeast,  I do have somewhat more freedom to make a pie when I feel like it as opposed to a more narrow window.  Not a big deal for me, but a consideration.  I imagine, since you are trying to run a business, that managing the scheduling is super important.

- Mitch
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 04:04:11 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

Offline norma427

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Hi Norma:

I think there are 2 things in play here that I can identify.  First is the combination of commercial yeast and sourdough starter in the proportions that Tony describes.  Second is Tony's overall workflow and the rest of his recipe/proportions (hydration, salt, etc.).

On the first, his is not all that different than what I have done before.  I think he calls for more starter and less yeast.  I would have to try and look it up but I do not think I have gone as far as 27%.  I think I have gone as far as 20%.

So,I think the answer is "yes." 

But, first I want to see if I can "master" his Master Dough and feel successful at making his dough with just commercial yeast.  Once (and if) I find that I am confident and that I like it, then I am sure I will make a dough with his starter/yeast mix and check it out.  I have always felt that I was getting good results with a combination of the two.  I know I have liked the combination (in general, not every time) better than my commercial yeast only pies. 

But, I think my sourdough only pies may edge them both out.  For me, it is also scheduling (not that I am particularly busy).  By doing a cold ferment, and including commercial yeast,  I do have somewhat more freedom to make a pie when I feel like it as opposed to a more narrow window.  Not a big deal for me, but a consideration.  I imagine, since you are trying to run a business, that managing the scheduling is super important.

- Mitch

Mitch,

Thanks for telling us there are two things that come into play that you can identify.  I understand if first you want to see if you can master Tony's Master Dough and feel successful making his dough with just commercial yeast. 

I would think only sourdough pies would edge a combination out, but who knows.

The things to manage even for a small pizza business like I have are enough for me.  The problem at market, with trying to offer something that I might think is better, is most people are not that much into how crusts taste, whether it is from a sourdough, combination, 4 day cold ferment, or a one day cold ferment.  I had new customers on Tuesday.  The man and his family were from NYC, but moved here in the last 5 years.  He told me he has been searching all over around here for a really good slice of pizza for the last 5 years.  He said before he came to my stand he had not found a good NY style slice.  The man is a physician.  My dough for market is only fermented for one day.  I guess if he was satisfied how the slice tasted that is good enough for me, since he was used to good slices in NYC.  I told the man about the forum if he wants to learn to make his own pizzas.  He seemed interested.

I still want to do experiments with different things to satisfy my own curiosity.

Norma


 

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