Author Topic: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 2792 times)

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Offline trappist

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New to the forum here.  I've been in pursuit of making Neapolitan Pizza at home for about 3-4 years now.  Though I'm still far from the mark, I've gotten cook times down below 2 minutes in my home oven, am only using Caputo 00 flour, and have done some yeast experimentation with brewing yeasts (I'm a homebrewer also, so I think about yeast a lot!).  I've recently decided I need to get more serious about my use and management of yeast, and, after that, I am thinking hard about getting a WFO.  I'm planning on ordering the cultures from sourdo next week after returning from vacation.  I've been reading through the forum quite a bit over the last few days and have read my way through most of Omid's page.  I've done several searches for and read several threads on "crisceto" but remain confused.  It seems that the three yeast options discussed for Neapolitan pizza are: Mother Dough, Fresh Yeast, and Starter Culture.  What I am unclear on is how each of these options is activated/established (say, from the Ischia/Camoldloli cultures I plan to order) and how it is maintained.  Also, while I'm fairly clear on what mother dough is (and it seems not to be the preferred method) and what a starter in a jar is, I'm unclear on what fresh yeast actually is.  Can anyone help me out here?  I'm looking to understand the principles but also want to know how to proceed in about two weeks when I get the cultures from sourdo.

Thanks,

Thomas





Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 04:53:08 PM »
For all intents and purposes, fresh yeast, ADY, and IDY are all the same thing in different delivery vehicles - they are all the same species of baker's yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). They might be slightly different strains selected to give the best results in the particular delivery system, but that's it. Some folks have noted slightly different results with the different forms, but they are effectively interchangeable at known ratios such as: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm

This contrasts with sourdough (a.k.a. SD, natural culture, natural starter, wild yeast, crisceto, etc.) in that it is a synergistic combination of a strain of yeast (often Candida milleri or Saccharomyces exiguus) and lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis.

Old dough (mother dough) methods are generally sourdough.

You will get activation and maintenance instructions from sourdo.com with your sourdough starter packages. If you ask 20 people here how they feed and maintain their cultures, you'll probably get 19 different answers.

I think you will be better off asking specific questions rather than a general "how do I proceed?" The subject is way too broad for that.

You can see exactly how I do what I do here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html
I also developed some guidelines for sourdough starting points here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html
Pizza is not bread.

Offline trappist

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 08:15:20 PM »
Craig, thanks for the reply.  That's very helpful.  So what form is fresh yeast?  Is it a liquid?  I guess I'm confused about fresh yeast because I've seen and used ADY, IDY, and a sourdough starter along with fresh liquid brewing yeast from Wyeast, which is something like this - http://morebeer.com/products/white-labs-belgian-style-ale-yeast-blend.html?gclid=CK3z3YD5grgCFWIV7AodQBAALQ.  From what I can tell, Omid uses fresh yeast and you use an Ischia starter.  Am I right to understand what you have said to mean that you two are using something quite different? 

-Thomas

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 09:59:14 PM »
Craig, thanks for the reply.  That's very helpful.  So what form is fresh yeast?  Is it a liquid?  I guess I'm confused about fresh yeast because I've seen and used ADY, IDY, and a sourdough starter along with fresh liquid brewing yeast from Wyeast, which is something like this - http://morebeer.com/products/white-labs-belgian-style-ale-yeast-blend.html?gclid=CK3z3YD5grgCFWIV7AodQBAALQ.  From what I can tell, Omid uses fresh yeast and you use an Ischia starter.  Am I right to understand what you have said to mean that you two are using something quite different? 

-Thomas


Yes, fresh yeast a.k.a. cake yeast is a form of baker's yeast just like ADY and IDY. It's just prepared differently. I think there is a liquid version, but really the only fresh yeast you see is what is generally known as cake yeast. It's a moist block of yeast that needs to be refrigerated.

Sourdough is a culture of yeast and lactic acid bacteria that requires care and feeding (or you can keep it in the refrigerator though that requires time to activate the culture before using it and the longer it is in the fridge, the longer it will take to activate. After a few months, it might take a couple days to get ready for use). I keep a culture in a mason jar on the counter and feed it every 4-5 days typically.

Baker's yeast is designed to give consistent, predictable results and lots of lift quickly, time after time. Sourdough is much more of a wild card. All sourdough cultures will perform differently. You have to get to know your culture and how it behaves. How you care for it will also play a role in how it performs. Sourdough has a lot more complexity and a longer learning curve, but I believe it can deliver superior results.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 10:25:20 PM »
"but I believe it can deliver superior results"

That is the understatement of the year.  It definitely provides superior results, provided it is well cared for and used appropriately.  It takes dough from the good to the great, and I do not think there is any other way to achieve it without using an SD starter.  Someday I will get off my lazy arse and feed, and nurture, and love an SD starter.

Offline parallei

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 12:16:52 AM »
In Denver grocery stores, fresh yeast is often found in a cooler near the eggs.  Make sure it is relatively fresh, they don't seem to sell a whole bunch of it.

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 01:54:58 AM »
I noticed that those who do use "regular" yeast for NP pizza use fresh. If it's the same organism, why the preference for fresh?

Jeff V has a pretty brutal takedown of it here:

Mockumentary Ep. 8 - Baker's yeast - JV Pizza Recipe

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 03:03:39 AM »
Fresh yeast is just a lot more active and leavens so much faster than dried yeasts.  For example, this morning I had a slurry of cake yeast, flour and water sitting in a  32 oz. Ziploc plastic container. I added some flour and a bit of water to the mixture, and within five minutes the top blew completely off of the container. I've never seen IDY or ADY produce that kind of lift so fast.  So in my mind at least, there is a significant difference. Also, the smell of fresh yeast is more pronounced.  It can get pretty funky too, but when it's fresh there is a nice clean yeast smell (maybe a bit bready) that I don't notice as much with dried yeast. 

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2013, 03:15:29 AM »
What about for overnight / fridge fermentation? Does cake yeast have any benefit over IDY?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 08:54:04 AM »
I noticed that those who do use "regular" yeast for NP pizza use fresh. If it's the same organism, why the preference for fresh?

Jeff V has a pretty brutal takedown of it here:


I'm not sure I'd call that brutal - nor even 100% factually accurate. There is no doubt that cake yeast, ADY, and IDY are the same species (S. cerevisiae), but I'm not certain its the same strain. I tend to doubt it is, but I don't know for sure. There are dozens of different strains of the S. cerevisiae used in wine and beer making - each with distinct characteristics selected for different types of wine/beer. In many cases, it's the same companies making the baker's yeast that are making the wine and beer yeast. I would think that there may be certain strains that are better suited to surviving active in the fridge and certain strains better suited to to the drying process. Where I sort of agree with Jeff is not that it is the same yeast but rather that baker's yeast (whatever the strain) is intended by the manufacturer to perform identically regardless of the type (CY, ADY, IDY).
Pizza is not bread.


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2013, 09:23:00 AM »
I'll weigh in on the yeast thing too.
All yeast exhibits some type of a "lag" time from the time it is added to the dough until it begins to actively ferment. For compressed yeast this lag time is typically in the 15 to 20-minute range. This is why large bakeries have a hard and fast rule that the dough must not be allowed to receive more than 20-minutes floor time (rest between end of mixing and dividing/portioning the dough). If the yeast begins actively fermenting before the dough hits the divider the density of the dough begins to change rapidly, making accurate scaling extremely difficult (by law their weights have to be accurate). The fourth type of yeast that most of us don't hear very much about is liquid/fluid, or as it is correctly called, cream yeast. Cream yeast contains about 80% water as opposed to about 70% water for cake/compressed yeast. Cream yeast is the exact same as compressed yeast with the exception for the difference in water content. It is intended for use only by the largest bakeries with suitable refrigerated storage tanks for holding it. The main benefit to cream yeast over other types of yeast is cost (it's cheaper to buy). For a large wholesale bread bakery the difference in cost of $0.01 (one penny) per pound in yeast cost can amount to something close to $10,000.00 a year.
If anyone wants to learn more about yeast, a good reference is Baking Science and Technology by E.J. Pyler. This is the hand book of the baking industry. Many libraries will have this book availably and it may also be available on line. We also have them available for sale too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2013, 09:45:26 AM »
Thanks Tom. Can you confirm or reject if the same strain of S. cerevisiae is used in the different forms of baker's yeast or are certain strains selected for the different yeast preparation methods?
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2013, 10:52:04 AM »
To the best of my knowledge, a different strain is used for the dry yeast products. It is still  S.C. but just a species that is better suited to the drying process, hence improved yeast survival after drying. Since there are literally millions of different strains of yeast available to choose from, this does not surprise me in the least. There are also some select strains that have a thicker cell wall and as a result demonstrate improved survival/performance in a frozen dough application. Remember, it's the ice crystal that forms inside of the yeast cell which with slow freezing, can grow to such a size as to puncture the yeast cell wall thus reducing its survival and/or performance after the dough is thawed. The thicker cell wall is better capable of resisting the damaging effects of the ice crystals.
ADY is a good product, but it does have some shortcomings, it does not exhibit the consistency in performance needed in commercial applications, but in home applications these differences just can't be seen, not that they aren't there, but who at home ever complains the the dough took an extra 5-minutes to rise to a certain height than it did a week ago? That CANNOT happen in a commercial setting since it would upset the entire timing of the bakery. IDY, on the other hand was actually developed for the commercial baking industry, not here in the U.S., but in Europe, hence more attention has been focused on achieving a consistency level of performance, which it does demonstrate. We have done numerous real world tests on the different brands of IDY and all of them are so incredibly consistent that over a three year testing period control doughs ALL and ALWAYS gave final proofing times within two minutes of the fixed target time (60-minutes). That is a plus or minus of only one minute for doughs that were made by the 70/30 sponge-dough process, given 3.5-hours of sponge fermentation, mixed to full development, given 15-minutes floor time (rest) then divided, given 10-minutes intermediate proof (rest), molded, panned, and given a final proof (rising) at 100F/85% R.H. with a targeted time of 60-minutes. The consistency with the IDY was significantly more consistent than we ever got when using compressed yeast (which in reality is rather variable) giving a variation in the plus or minus range of 3F. ADY was in the range of plus or minus 6-minutes. In a home setting where dough absorption is not controlled, dough temperature is not really controlled in most cases, and room temperature varies considerably, not to mention scaling accuracy, not just with the yeast, but with the other ingredients too, is it any wonder why we don't see these differences? But with that said, those differences still do exist.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2013, 11:04:50 AM »
"but I believe it can deliver superior results"

That is the understatement of the year.  It definitely provides superior results, provided it is well cared for and used appropriately.  It takes dough from the good to the great, and I do not think there is any other way to achieve it without using an SD starter.  Someday I will get off my lazy arse and feed, and nurture, and love an SD starter.

This is a matter of preference.  No doubt you do get better flavor with a SD starter.  I'm not sure that it improves crust texture for me, but I am willing to accept that I may not be working with the ideal starters though.  Or that I may not be optimizing their performance due to how I maintain and care for them. 

I will say that some of my very best pies (texturally and flavorwise) have all had some SD starter in it with a bit of IDY mixed in.  Could just be coincidence....maybe....perhaps not. 

Chau
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 11:10:06 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline JF_Aidan_Pryde

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 03:45:41 PM »
To the best of my knowledge, a different strain is used for the dry yeast products. It is still  S.C. but just a species that is better suited to the drying process, hence improved yeast survival after drying. Since there are literally millions of different strains of yeast available to choose from, this does not surprise me in the least. There are also some select strains that have a thicker cell wall and as a result demonstrate improved survival/performance in a frozen dough application. Remember, it's the ice crystal that forms inside of the yeast cell which with slow freezing, can grow to such a size as to puncture the yeast cell wall thus reducing its survival and/or performance after the dough is thawed. The thicker cell wall is better capable of resisting the damaging effects of the ice crystals.
ADY is a good product, but it does have some shortcomings, it does not exhibit the consistency in performance needed in commercial applications, but in home applications these differences just can't be seen, not that they aren't there, but who at home ever complains the the dough took an extra 5-minutes to rise to a certain height than it did a week ago? That CANNOT happen in a commercial setting since it would upset the entire timing of the bakery. IDY, on the other hand was actually developed for the commercial baking industry, not here in the U.S., but in Europe, hence more attention has been focused on achieving a consistency level of performance, which it does demonstrate. We have done numerous real world tests on the different brands of IDY and all of them are so incredibly consistent that over a three year testing period control doughs ALL and ALWAYS gave final proofing times within two minutes of the fixed target time (60-minutes). That is a plus or minus of only one minute for doughs that were made by the 70/30 sponge-dough process, given 3.5-hours of sponge fermentation, mixed to full development, given 15-minutes floor time (rest) then divided, given 10-minutes intermediate proof (rest), molded, panned, and given a final proof (rising) at 100F/85% R.H. with a targeted time of 60-minutes. The consistency with the IDY was significantly more consistent than we ever got when using compressed yeast (which in reality is rather variable) giving a variation in the plus or minus range of 3F. ADY was in the range of plus or minus 6-minutes. In a home setting where dough absorption is not controlled, dough temperature is not really controlled in most cases, and room temperature varies considerably, not to mention scaling accuracy, not just with the yeast, but with the other ingredients too, is it any wonder why we don't see these differences? But with that said, those differences still do exist.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Fantastic explanation. Thanks Tom!

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 09:02:53 AM »
Yes, fresh yeast a.k.a. cake yeast is a form of baker's yeast just like ADY and IDY. It's just prepared differently. I think there is a liquid version, but really the only fresh yeast you see is what is generally known as cake yeast. It's a moist block of yeast that needs to be refrigerated.

Sourdough is a culture of yeast and lactic acid bacteria that requires care and feeding (or you can keep it in the refrigerator though that requires time to activate the culture before using it and the longer it is in the fridge, the longer it will take to activate. After a few months, it might take a couple days to get ready for use). I keep a culture in a mason jar on the counter and feed it every 4-5 days typically.

Baker's yeast is designed to give consistent, predictable results and lots of lift quickly, time after time. Sourdough is much more of a wild card. All sourdough cultures will perform differently. You have to get to know your culture and how it behaves. How you care for it will also play a role in how it performs. Sourdough has a lot more complexity and a longer learning curve, but I believe it can deliver superior results.

You only feed your countertop ischia every 4-5 days?  It does okay like that or you had to train it somehow?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 09:38:22 AM »
You only feed your countertop ischia every 4-5 days?  It does okay like that or you had to train it somehow?

No training. That's pretty much how I've always done it. I might feed it a couple days in a row before using it, but other than that, it's every 4-5 days and maybe as many as 7 days.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 09:59:51 AM »
Craig have you detailed your feeding method here.  Your Ischia culture is much more mild than mine.  I'm curious to see if I employ your maintenance methods If the tester culture I got from you will stay mild or if it will change.  If it changes on my co unter at room temps using your exact methods, it will be another example of a local strain overtaking an established culture.

Offline Teddy Ballgame

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2013, 11:45:22 PM »
I noticed that those who do use "regular" yeast for NP pizza use fresh. If it's the same organism, why the preference for fresh?

Jeff V has a pretty brutal takedown of it here:

Mockumentary Ep. 8 - Baker's yeast - JV Pizza Recipe


Interestingly I watched the video and then clicked on "how to make the perfect pizza" - guardian UK on the you tube tiles after and they show a really cool NP style pizza place in the UK. Check it out.

Also, what are everyone's thoughts on using Italian dry yeast - wouldn't you think it would be a different strain from what we have here?

http://www.amazon.com/Lievito-Degli-Angeli-Italian-Yeast/dp/B005FI9Q84/?tag=pizzamaking-20
 

Offline norma427

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Re: Explanation of Yeast Options/Approaches for Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2013, 07:07:33 AM »
Teddy,

Steve gave me some Paneangeli yeast at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11597.msg106502.html#msg106502  but it doesn't say the same thing on the label as the Paneangeli yeast that you posted.  David translated the recipe for me at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11597.msg106509.html#msg106509

Peter posted at Reply 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11896.msg110894.html#msg110894  that he thought the Paneangeli yeast I used was a form of IDY.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


 

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